RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (Full Version)

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Louve00 -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 8:00:11 AM)

I agree that its controversial.  Heck, if its coming from the Obama Administration it is doomed to be controversial, at the pace we go.  When Kennedy said that ever remembered line..."Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what can I do for my country", was a famous, accepted quote that people liked.  That Bush kept the American people in the dark, asking them not at all to participate in their own countrys affair, this president is.  I don't know.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  I personally don't see anything wrong with an inspiring speech to young children.  He's not suggesting they line up for concentration camp works for the good of America.  He's asking them to make goals...something many of them graduate without.  I agree with Thadius that it could have been worded better than "what can I do to help the president".  But if you stop for one moment and think about this.  A student stopping to think of that question, and answer it for themself might (just might) give them a clue that self responsibility is something we should all be a part of. 



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 8:23:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I agree with Thadius that it could have been worded better than "what can I do to help the president".


I would be more in agreement with Thadius if the question had been worded as "what can I do to help Barak Obama?" There is, however, a difference between the office of the presidency and the current sitting president. For children that age, a question like "How can I help the president?" is not a matter of politics. It is a matter of inclusion. It says "I can have an effect on my governement. It is something I can impact." It is a begining concept in civics, not meant to be the final result, but a step in the final result that the student learn that the term "govenment of the people, for the people and by the people" means their own involvement in the process of making things work.

The problem is, to many parents, the idea of helping the president means helping Barak Obama and that is, to them a bad thing. They seem more willing to teach their children that those who one disagrees with is not to be listened to. That makes for an interesting town hall meeting but a poor example of how we can work to help and, if desired, change our government.

Of course, how these questions are handled and graded is at least as important as the questions asked. I feel very strongly that an answer such as "I could help the president by coming up with a better idea to take care of sick people because his aren't very good" has to be treated as being as valid as "I can pick up cans for recycling because we have to take care of the envrionment". That, again, puts it back into the teacher's lap. The question however, given the age group of the students, is not a bad one to ask.



sappatoti -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 8:38:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales


quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I agree with Thadius that it could have been worded better than "what can I do to help the president".


I would be more in agreement with Thadius if the question had been worded as "what can I do to help Barak Obama?" There is, however, a difference between the office of the presidency and the current sitting president. For children that age, a question like "How can I help the president?" is not a matter of politics. It is a matter of inclusion. It says "I can have an effect on my governement. It is something I can impact." It is a begining concept in civics, not meant to be the final result, but a step in the final result that the student learn that the term "govenment of the people, for the people and by the people" means their own involvement in the process of making things work. ...


When I was that age, we were never taught anything about serving the President, a Senator, or any other elected official. It was all about serving the country. Perhaps that subtlety is lost on most but, for the people around here -- particularly those in control of the local school curriculum -- it's not merely a subtle difference. It is a large, in-your-face type of change in direction of how kids should view their government. The local rumblings from school teachers living next door are that they have no desire to teach a curriculum that has even the slightest hint of "how to serve the <insert elected official's office here>.

Again, go back to Kennedy's speech (...ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country...). Compare that with the first release of the curriculum received by the local schools, where they wanted kids to write letters saying how they could help serve the President.

Is it a subtle, innocent change in thought or something more?



Thadius -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 9:04:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales


quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I agree with Thadius that it could have been worded better than "what can I do to help the president".


I would be more in agreement with Thadius if the question had been worded as "what can I do to help Barak Obama?" There is, however, a difference between the office of the presidency and the current sitting president. For children that age, a question like "How can I help the president?" is not a matter of politics. It is a matter of inclusion. It says "I can have an effect on my governement. It is something I can impact." It is a begining concept in civics, not meant to be the final result, but a step in the final result that the student learn that the term "govenment of the people, for the people and by the people" means their own involvement in the process of making things work.





The wording actually did say "President Barack Obaama", which is what made me raise an eyebrow.  I do agree with you however, that encouraging our youth (hell even those that aren't considered youth) to become more civicly active in the process... you know the whole being a productive member of society and a community.

I would suggest that perhaps some of the hysteria over this particular incident may be a reaction to the timing of the other story with the "I Pledge..." video.  Bad timing, or as a famous man once said "I'm a victim of ciqucumstances..."

For an administration that usually seems pretty polished, and detail orientated, this seems a bit unprofessional. Know what I mean?  I am chalking this one up as just a snafu, and those around here know that I am no fan of our current president or the folks that he surrounds himself with.  Who knows?

I wish you well,
Thadius




BeingChewsie -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 9:11:52 AM)

quote:

And what books should teachers have children read about Barack Obama... t


I would suggest "Culture of Corruption" by Michelle Malkin. We recently read it in this house and we found plenty of noteworthy things to discuss.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 9:20:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti


Again, go back to Kennedy's speech (...ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country...). Compare that with the first release of the curriculum received by the local schools, where they wanted kids to write letters saying how they could help serve the President.

Is it a subtle, innocent change in thought or something more?



Actually, it's a misquote . The question was never "How can you help serve the president." It was not even "How can you help serve President Obama". It was "How can you help the president." or, depending on the version, "How can you help President Obama"....that is a HUGE difference. In one, you are joining with the president for a cause i.e helping to make the country better. The second is making the achievement of the president's goals the cause itself. That is a big difference

Had there been any mention of "serve" whatsoever, I would have been jumpping up and down and shouting with the best of them. As it is, I don't see the whole thing as amazingly disturbing. Further, it has been taken off the table, which, in my opinion, could be used to illustrate as a teaching point, what the voice of the people can do in a democracy.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 9:22:47 AM)

~ Fast Reply ~

At this point it seems the 'defense' is creating more news and suspicion than the the offensive against the President's school chat. Restated goals, rewriting the script, taking back the teaching aids; not something that conveys an open and transparent Administration or even an 'innocent' mistake.

Doubt this could get an honest response but I'll try anyway...

Does anyone else think that an Administration coming in with so much popularity and hope and could have been derailed this quickly without some level of internal incompetence or is chanting from the "Bush did it!", "We're not as bad as THEM!", "It's worse than we thought - We need more time", "The Republicans are to blame!" hymnal still working for you?



BeingChewsie -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 9:27:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~FR

How do you teach children about current events if you shelter them from what is happening in the White House?


We shelter our son from a lot of things, which is why we have pulled him from a public school. In this instance we are not sheltering him from current events, he watches the news, reads the news online, and is probably more versed in current events than most adults. There is a huge difference between watching a speech given by Obama at home where we can impart our values/beliefs and watching it in a public school with union teachers and engaging in lessons after that offer questions to think about like "Why is it important to listen to what the President says? Why is it important to listen to what our Congress people say? Why is it important to listen to what our Mayor says?" In this house we are encouraging him to ask "Why should our elected officials listen to us?" and teaching him that elected public servants are there to serve us, not the other way around. It was the materials and suggested lesson plans that rankled us, not the speech. It was the way the materials were presented, they have since changed them so obviously they agreed that perhaps they were a little inappropriate.






tazzygirl -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 10:17:06 AM)

It is important that we listen to what they say..... listen... its an active process... not to be confused with believe... as so many seem to think.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 10:37:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Does anyone else think that an Administration coming in with so much popularity and hope and could have been derailed this quickly without some level of internal incompetence or is chanting from the "Bush did it!", "We're not as bad as THEM!", "It's worse than we thought - We need more time", "The Republicans are to blame!" hymnal still working for you?


Just as I tried to give an answer to your last question, I will try to give answer to this one.

I think serveral things are happening with this administration. First, I don't know if there is any more incompetence in Obama's administration than there was in previous administrations. It is of a different kind and manefesting in different manners than with other administrations but it isn't a greater degree of incompetence. Without trying to sound like a Bush basher, let us remember that other than his tax bill, Bush didn't get a single major piece of policy legislation passed until after 9/11 resulted in his approval ratings and his political captital going through the roof. Clinton came into office and was dealt a great blow in both his policy of advocating gay rights and his attempt at healthcare. As many before him have discovered, there is a huge difference between running for president and being president.

I also believe there was an overestimation of what Obama could do. The idea that comparisons with Lincon could be made, before he served a day in office, was never anything but ridiculous. Those who believed that he could walk on water were as silly as those who believed him to be the anti-christ come to destroy America. With such expectations, it was inevitable that he was going to be shown up with feet of clay. Perhaps he expected the honeymoon to last longer, but honeymoons are by nature short events.

Another issue is the polarization of expectation. While I think the reasonable range of judgement in his first six months runs from b- to c-, it seems theat many weren't going to be satisfied with anything but an A+ or a total F. The right wing expected him to carry out a massive socialist agenda, doing everything from taking over every major industry to destroying free speech (look up the fairness doctrine rants) and tear the constitution up in favor of quotes from Karl Marx. The left wing expected him to carry through the progressive agenda that they have been hungering for since the first day of the Bush administration. The first will never see what he has done in any terms but the most evil. The second will see any centerist policies as a betrayal of one who they thought was their golden boy. The small sliver of independents are subjected to the anguished cries of both ends of the spectrum. It is not surprising that his polling numbers are going down.

I do have to say that I think calling him derailed is a bit premature. Right now, his polling numbers are irrelevant. First, he is not up for election for three years. Second, as I have pointed out in other posts, while the number do indicate that Obama is falling in popularity, this has not resulted in an appreciable gain in the republican's popularity. In short, the people don't like the republicans more because they like Obama less. This leads to a very fluid situaiton in the near future.

So, in short, yes, there has been incompetence in the Obama administration. I do not, however thing that the mistakes he has made are fatal to his administration, nor do I think they are worse than the incompetence shown in just about every political endevor. The question, as I see it, is can he overcome the mistakes he's made or will he be a one term wonder. And there's a lot of innings to be played before that ballgame is over.





SpinnerofTales -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 10:40:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie


There is a huge difference between watching a speech given by Obama at home where we can impart our values/beliefs and watching it in a public school with union teachers and engaging in lessons after that offer questions to think about like "Why is it important to listen to what the President says? Why is it important to listen to what our Congress people say? Why is it important to listen to what our Mayor says?"


I ask this question without spin or bias. Just what teaching points are you going to bring up about this speech, if any? What do you feel are the opportunities and lessons that this speech offers?



Mercnbeth -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 10:58:01 AM)

quote:

So, in short, yes, there has been incompetence in the Obama administration.


Spinner,
It took you 5 paragraphs of qualifiers to get there but I respect your concluding, to me obvious and pragmatic, acknowledgment.

So you know that was not sarcasm...

Were I as invested politically or philosophically in the party or bought into the campaign rhetoric of the individual under similar circumstances, I'm sure I would have taken at least 10 paragraphs!



Kirata -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 10:58:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

I ask this question without spin or bias. Just what teaching points are you going to bring up about this speech, if any? What do you feel are the opportunities and lessons that this speech offers?

Catch any fish today? Precisely how is someone supposed to know what "teaching points" they are going to raise with their children about, or what "opportunities and lessons" are offered by, a speech they haven't even seen yet?

K.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 11:03:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Were I as invested politically or philosophically in the party or bought into the campaign rhetoric of the individual under similar circumstances, I'm sure I would have taken at least 10 paragraphs!


I view politics the way some people love football. For some, the answer is "The Lions stink", for others, it's fun to diagram WHY the Lions stink.

Personally, I think the ultimate comment on politics was made by Hunter Thompson who said that no matter what ideals a candidate comes into the campaign with, eventually it gets to the point where nothing matters but the numbers.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 11:10:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Catch any fish today? Precisely how is someone supposed to know what "teaching points" they are going to raise with their children about, or what "opportunities and lessons" are offered by, a speech they haven't even seen yet?


I don't consider it fishing. The president of the United States is going to give a "stay in school and work hard" speech. I don't think that's total seat of the pants stuff. I think a reasonable person can go into that with a pretty clear idea of what it's going to contain and what points they have to make from it. Of course, if he gets up there and says "And I want you to work hard in school so we can get together and make this a Marxist paradiese with me as the total ruler" then that lesson plan will change. Otherwise, I don't think it too bad a question to ask what is expected going in and what lessons one would like to illustrate with it.



Kirata -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 11:38:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

The president of the United States is going to give a "stay in school and work hard" speech.

Unh huh. I'd feel more sanguine about his motivation and the potential benefit if he was going to give a "learn everything you can, learn logic, learn how to reason correctly, and question everything you learn" speech.

K.



sappatoti -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 11:40:16 AM)

~ Fast Reply ~

The final and official word came down from our local school board this morning regarding the live showing of President Obama's speech in the classroom:

quote:


"After careful review of School Board Policy 9.70 which provides that cooperation with Federal agencies “shall not be at the expense of district level or local school programs.” Since schools are in the process of conducting diagnostic reading and baseline assessments and have structured schedules or current lesson plans, viewing the live broadcast would not be within the guidelines outlined in this policy and the bandwidth capacity of the district will not support both activities. Therefore, the presidential address will be taped and reviewed in accordance with the policy guidelines prior to any classroom viewing of the address. The live broadcast will not be shown during the school day on Tuesday, September 8, 2009 in district operated schools."


While some of the debate focused on the ill-worded materials that accompanied this video, among other things, the final decision whether to air this address or not came down to a matter of policy and available infrastructure. Paraphrasing policy 9.70, it basically states that while the school district will make all attempts to cooperate with State and Federal educational programs, it will not disrupt the scheduled activities to include them unless they are of a State or Federal emergency or crisis. On the matter of the school district's infrastructure, this is a district that has a $40 million deficit for this year and has had to cut back in many areas, one of which was available internet bandwidth. It has been scaled back to support only those courses that require use of it (web design, etc.) and there simply isn't enough bandwidth available to support scheduled classes and the downloading/viewing of this speech. So, to keep with their policy of maintaining scheduled classes, the President's speech will be handled per their statement.

This address is being treated in the same manner as has Presidential Inaugurations. None of those have been broadcast live within the school district in the past.

The senior member of the school board did mention that for those parents who wish their children to view the address, they could do so at any time within their own homes and discuss it as a family unit.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 1:16:41 PM)

I want two things noted. First, the text of Obama's speech will be available for view and discussion on Monday. Second, that the head of the RNC in Florida has branded this speech as an attempt to, and I quote, "Indoctrinate our children into his socialist agenda".

I want this noted because when the speech comes out, we are going to see if the head of the RNC was or was not talking out his ass....and what my esteemed associates on the right have to say about that comment.





sappatoti -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 1:30:37 PM)

Why does that not surprise me? Both of the major parties in FL have a history of this kind of outlandish rhetoric and, if called out, have equally outlandish excuses lined up waiting to be used should their prophecies not come as expected.

This is why I belong to no party. I just cannot get into this kind of crap.



thishereboi -> RE: Political indoctrination in schools: (9/4/2009 6:51:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

I want two things noted. First, the text of Obama's speech will be available for view and discussion on Monday. Second, that the head of the RNC in Florida has branded this speech as an attempt to, and I quote, "Indoctrinate our children into his socialist agenda".

I want this noted because when the speech comes out, we are going to see if the head of the RNC was or was not talking out his ass....and what my esteemed associates on the right have to say about that comment.





I don't have to wait to read the speech. I can tell you right now, I don't give a rats ass what the head of the RNC in Florida thinks. So I don't have anything to say about any comments he may make.



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