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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 8:55:03 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
What good is a one-way walkie-talkie?!? Jeez!

Let's see: Your house is on fire. You have a one-way walkie-talkie to the fire-department, but decide not to use it because it is no use.

Your ship has sunk and you are clinging to a floating door. You have a one-way walkie-talkie to the coast guard, but decide not to use it because it is no use.

You were hit by a drunk driver who did not stop and are rather severely wounded. You have a one-way walkie-talkie to the medical emergency service, but decide not to use it because it is no use.

Besides, it does not matter anyway, as life has no intrinsic meaning or value to a nihilist.

Edited to add: everyone has the white fluffy line.

< Message edited by Rule -- 9/10/2009 8:56:35 PM >

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Post #: 341

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 9:03:15 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

Are you saying that ALL opinions are views that have no framework inside them?

Yes. If they do have framework and sensible thought put into them and have been intellectually tested at least marginally, they merit a better term than "opinion".

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

I asked in order to get YOUR response, which you didn't give

Post #324. Fifth from the top. Last two paragraphs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

Your have provided additional clarification regarding emotional investment in an opinion/view etc to distinguish it as a belief. Thanks. I happen to disagree because beliefs also change over time, through experiences and learning etc.

Um...yeah. emotions change over time. So emotional investments will change. Not sure where the problem is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

Maybe at that point, in your opinion, they would have always been considered views - since the person holding them was able to change them in the face of new or different information. But if the person holding them believed them at one point and then didn't at another, wasn't it still a belief when it was being held?

It depends why it was held.

Like the difference between a casual smoker and an addict.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

Interesting point in your last statement....which would only apply to nihilists since atheists would deny the existence of deities, correct?

Correct. My initial thoughts are that there can be nihilistic theists. They wouldn't be very devout, perhaps...

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Post #: 342

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 9:05:09 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Let's see: Your house is on fire. You have a one-way walkie-talkie to the fire-department, but decide not to use it because it is no use.

Your ship has sunk and you are clinging to a floating door. You have a one-way walkie-talkie to the coast guard, but decide not to use it because it is no use.

You were hit by a drunk driver who did not stop and are rather severely wounded. You have a one-way walkie-talkie to the medical emergency service, but decide not to use it because it is no use.

Besides, it does not matter anyway, as life has no intrinsic meaning or value to a nihilist.

Edited to add: everyone has the white fluffy line.

I'm disappointed, Rule. I'd have bet surely that your metaphysical omniscience would have enlightened you to the fact that my quoted comment was one used in casual jest with tazzygirl and not one I had trotted out for the purpose of making it a key point to the philosophical argument.

Rough day?

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Post #: 343

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 9:06:11 PM

tazzygirl

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you were only playing with me?!?!?!?!?!?!

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Post #: 344

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 9:08:21 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

im just a poor, helpless, defensive s-type who gets textually beat up by you D-types and.... sighs... now i gotta call the white line!!!

see what you did!?!?

Oh, hush. You enjoy the textual beatings!

And if I were more artistically competent, I'd have a dandy ASCII drawing of a whip I could stick into the thread for geeky humor.

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Post #: 345

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 9:09:38 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

you were only playing with me?!?!?!?!?!?!

Yes, but look at it this way: as an existential nihilist, that "means" as much to me as a lifelong commitment!

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/10/2009 9:11:03 PM >

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Post #: 346

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 9:14:06 PM

tazzygirl

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YAY!!!!

now i can curl up into my warm white blanket of my mind and enjoy some one on one time with someone im not supposed to talk with!!!

my world is perfect yet again!!!!

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Post #: 347

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 9:26:39 PM

eponavet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

Are you saying that ALL opinions are views that have no framework inside them?

Yes. If they do have framework and sensible thought put into them and have been intellectually tested at least marginally, they merit a better term than "opinion".

I dunno...i mean, i'm from Florida. it's my opinion that it is cold when it gets below 60 degrees out. And i feel cold, shiver etc. when it gets below 60 degrees out. But i'm quite sure that someone from say - Canada - would be of the opinion that 60 degrees is quite warm. Balmy even.... Who is right? And aren't both those opinions based on our experiences, facts even (the actual temperature - i'm not saying i'm of the opinion that 60 degrees is actually 32 degrees and freezing - although i may whine something to that effect when i'm cold...) that helped formulate each of our opinions? If you aren't going to call them opinions, what word are you going to use? (You mention above that ideas with framework inside them merit a better word. I'm sincerely asking what that word is)

I think my example above is more realistic than yours about me being from Saturn.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

I asked in order to get YOUR response, which you didn't give

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Post #324. Fifth from the top. Last two paragraphs.

You posted that when i was responding to the other person's post, so subsequently it wasn't in my response. Thanks though for the clarification for anyone else who is reading along....

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

Your have provided additional clarification regarding emotional investment in an opinion/view etc to distinguish it as a belief. Thanks. I happen to disagree because beliefs also change over time, through experiences and learning etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Um...yeah. emotions change over time. So emotional investments will change. Not sure where the problem is.

No problem....i'm not sure why you respond sacracstically as though you don't understand or as though i am attacking you when i'm debating concepts and ideas and expanding my views through debate. I'm now responding to you differentiating a view from a belief by attaching emotional requirements to the latter. And i am of the opinion that both can have emotional facets and neither is mutually exclusive or valid/invalid based on those emotional aspects....i am also interested in differing opinions that help shape or solidify my own, so thanks for the input (sans the sarcastic, condescending parts....

...) It's been enlightening for me to think deeper on the linguistics as well as the concepts within this discussion.

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Post #: 348

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 9:29:43 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I'm disappointed, Rule. I'd have bet surely that your metaphysical omniscience would have enlightened you to the fact that my quoted comment was one used in casual jest with tazzygirl and not one I had trotted out for the purpose of making it a key point to the philosophical argument.

Rough day?

lol.

I suppose that there exist at least two types of omniscience: conscious omniscience and autonomic omniscience. The latter may keep track of the number of times a particular ant takes a crap. The former will only be aware of it when its attention is focused on the ant.

I do not know in any case whether the Divine is aware of the nature of 'jest'. We are, but that is because we are functional entities in our universe; the Divine is not. Neither was I aware that your remark was a casual jest; I took it seriously, and so may have interpreted the Divine it as well.

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Post #: 349

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 9:41:45 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

I dunno...i mean, i'm from Florida. it's my opinion that it is cold when it gets below 60 degrees out. And i feel cold, shiver etc. when it gets below 60 degrees out. But i'm quite sure that someone from say - Canada - would be of the opinion that 60 degrees is quite warm. Balmy even.... Who is right?

Both of you. You're using a subjective example. You may as well be arguing over which color is the coolest.

With topics such as these, sure, everything is varying opinion. Somethings more than others. Music, for instance, is a gray area. Whether someone thinks X music is better than Y is opinion although the musicianship and talent of X and Y can be more objectively assessed and compared.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

And aren't both those opinions based on our experiences, facts even (the actual temperature - i'm not saying i'm of the opinion that 60 degrees is actually 32 degrees and freezing - although i may whine something to that effect when i'm cold...) that helped formulate each of our opinions?

Sure. But your feeling it's 54 degrees outside and my feeling it's 61 can each be measured on how accurate they are to reality. It doesn't change whether it still feels cold or not to each of us, but it gives us the actual information.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

If you aren't going to call them opinions, what word are you going to use? (You mention above that ideas with framework inside them merit a better word. I'm sincerely asking what that word is)

In this example? Guesses of just personal expressions. I get cold easily. I frankly couldn't care if someone else thinks it's just dandy outside if I'm freezing my butt off no matter what the thermometer says!

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

I think my example above is more realistic than yours about me being from Saturn.....

Exactly! Some examples ("opinions") are better than others...usually based on their realistic probability. then we get into all the juicy details of how we determine probability, though (and statistics can get overwhelming really quick).

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

No problem....i'm not sure why you respond sacracstically as though you don't understand or as though i am attacking you when i'm debating concepts and ideas and expanding my views through debate.

Fair enough. It's not personal, though. I can get clinical and pointed during debate. I'll try to keep it a bit more lighthearted if it hasn't seemed that way thus far.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

I'm now responding to you differentiating a view from a belief by attaching emotional requirements to the latter. And i am of the opinion that both can have emotional facets and neither is mutually exclusive or valid/invalid based on those emotional aspects....i am also interested in differing opinions that help shape or solidify my own, so thanks for the input (sans the sarcastic, condescending parts.......) It's been enlightening for me to think deeper on the linguistics as well as the concepts within this discussion.

Wait...did that count as sarcasm?

I would still say that grouping them both together as being able to be prone to emotional investment just means we're semantically moving the goalposts. My main concern is with X where X is a thought held tight because the person needs it (emotionally), regardless of what term we use to describe X.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/10/2009 9:45:48 PM >

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Post #: 350

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 9:54:02 PM

eponavet

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I was very careful NOT to include sarcasm in my post!

What would be the point of calling you out on it if i then did it myself?!?! Hello!!!!

(yes...that was sarcasm...)

Time for bed...that was plenty of deep thought and convoluted debate for me...whew!!! I'm nowhere near an existential nihilist - you guys are too tough to try and convince of ANYTHING!

Good night (oh wait, can you have one of those....?

....)

< Message edited by eponavet -- 9/10/2009 9:55:30 PM >

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Post #: 351

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 10:06:34 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet
All snake handlers will be Chrisitans but not all Christians will be snake handlers....am i getting the gist of what you were attempting to say? If so, how does that pertain to Atheism? All Atheists deny the existence of a supreme being, but not all Atheists have come to that conclusion in a particular fashion? That is the best i can come up with from your post. To which i would reply....and your point is?

Maybe it's a bad comparison *shrug*, I don't have an atheist handbook so I suppose it's a little different. It's "the not all Christians will be snake handlers" part that I was trying to use as an example the view of a subset of the group not being the same as the whole group. This would apply to atheism in that not everyone takes the position that deities do not exist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet
They still all deny the existence of a supreme being. They still all "don't believe in a God...." or to put it another way They still "believe that there is no God".

False. For instance:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
My own view when it comes to the existence(under any definition of the word) of a deity/s(under any definition of the word) is that I don't know. However there are a number of claims that I will point out are demonstrably false, for instance "spectral evidence" isn't reliable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet
And yes, there are atheistic agnostics, but they are about as common as snake handling Christians. so....if THAT was your point - point taken.

Sweet, could you post a link to the survey that you're citing, I've really been wanting to see the percentages for a number of positions in the atheist community.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet
Atheism has some fundamental guiding principles

How does a label for anyone who's not a theist imply fundamental guiding principles? There are common groups within the atheist community and other atheist groups that the community in general wouldn't go near that have belief systems or guiding principles but that doesn't mean the term atheism has them. For instance there's an atheist movement called secular humanism. It has a complex philosophy involving ethics etc. that doesn't mean that atheism as a whole shares that philosophy anymore than Christianity as a whole shares the belief that handling poisonous snakes is a good plan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet
I think you are using semantics to defend your position that atheism is the "absence" of any beliefs based on the above statement. It is not difficult to see that the meaning of the statement is that an atheist is someone who believes that deities don't exist.

There is a semantic argument going on, it's the absence of a belief IS a belief thing that keeps getting asserted. A rejection of theism as in, having faith in a god without evidence is a bad plan is a different position than it's impossible for a god to exist. Both positions occur within the atheist community and trying to twist a definition of atheism into a statement that doesn't reflect that is ignoring the reality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet
I think that agnosticism is the best example of the absence of a belief system as it pertains to a religious discussion. Do you disagree?
~ epona

I don't know what the best example of the absence of a belief system is, that's not something I've given much thought. However, even if agnosticism were the best example that wouldn't mean that atheism wasn't an example.

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Post #: 352

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 10:11:59 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Believer: "God is beyond human understanding!"
Skeptic: "Then how do you understand enough about it/her/him to know that it/she/he is beyond our understanding?"
Believer: "Um..."

Thanks, I got a kick out of that.

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Post #: 353

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 10:30:51 PM

eponavet

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I can't help myself....i'm really tired, and still here i sit.

Ok Steel....

First, since you responded with ample amounts of sarcasm, i'm quite sure you were able to see mine. But....i'm fairly certain i did not state that there was a survey out there comparing snake handlers to agnostic atheists. If there is one, i'll be sure to CM you!

Second....those agnostic atheists need to pick a frickin' side.

By definition they are not the same thing! I mean, wtf....by your own admission, you are an ag-nos-tic. Whoopdee frickin' doo that you can debunk spectral evidence. You still say that you don't know. Let's just use the dictionary definitions ffs about this:

Agnostic :a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

Atheist: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

And you are right...having faith in a god without evidence as a bad plan IS a different position than it's impossible for a god to exist. One stance is called agnosticism and the other is called atheism. The "agnostic atheists" are the nontheistic version of the christian jews

(sarcasm for anyone who thinks i need to provide data for that comment)..... I mean seriously....wtf????

< Message edited by eponavet -- 9/10/2009 10:46:00 PM >

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Post #: 354

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 10:32:06 PM

DavanKael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

Well, it is a non-prophet organization.

chia* (the pet)

Thinks that Chia is brilliant! :>
Davan

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Post #: 355

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 10:49:12 PM

DavanKael

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ORIGINAL: eponavet
I think that agnosticism is the best example of the absence of a belief system as it pertains to a religious discussion. Do you disagree?
~ epona

This was not asked of me but I am agnostic (I'll sometimes cop to being an atheistically-leaning one and I surely don't believe in an interventionist god) and, I don't think it is indicative of an absence of belief system at all. I espouse the belief quite clearly that I don't freakin' know: that's not a lack of belief system, I am certain that I don't have the answer: I believe that I don't know, I believe that there are possibilities and there are probabilities. I was among the faithful, I did believe in God (Of the Christian variety) for a number of years of my life. Then, I lost my faith (Cue the appropriate REM song here). I didn't want to lose my faith, it would be comforting in a lot of ways to have retained it.
I do agree that agnostic atheists are a contradiction in terms (and found your Jews for Jesus reference amusing).
I haven't read the entirety of the thread but you're arguing from an emotional viewpoint where NZ is speaking of logic. You're frustrating yourself with what's at the core of what I have read of the debate which is faith versus logic: the two are irreconcilable because one operates on the fluidity of emotions and a 'feeling' while the other has a fixed set of criteria and demands the rigors of proof.
Davan

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Post #: 356

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 11:05:18 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet
the dictionary

THE dictionary, I was under the impression that there was more than one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet
And you are right...having faith in a god without evidence as a bad plan IS a different position than it's impossible for a god to exist. One stance is called agnosticism and the other is called atheism. The "agnostic atheists" are the nontheistic version of the christian jews (sarcasm for anyone who thinks i need to provide data for that comment)..... I mean seriously....wtf????

So are you saying that I'm not a twue atheist? There are christian jews by the way.

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Post #: 357

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 11:07:46 PM

eponavet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

ORIGINAL: eponavet
I think that agnosticism is the best example of the absence of a belief system as it pertains to a religious discussion. Do you disagree?
~ epona

This was not asked of me but I am agnostic (I'll sometimes cop to being an atheistically-leaning one and I surely don't believe in an interventionist god) and, I don't think it is indicative of an absence of belief system at all. I espouse the belief quite clearly that I don't freakin' know: that's not a lack of belief system, I am certain that I don't have the answer: I believe that I don't know, I believe that there are possibilities and there are probabilities. I was among the faithful, I did believe in God (Of the Christian variety) for a number of years of my life. Then, I lost my faith (Cue the appropriate REM song here). I didn't want to lose my faith, it would be comforting in a lot of ways to have retained it.
I do agree that agnostic atheists are a contradiction in terms (and found your Jews for Jesus reference amusing).
I haven't read the entirety of the thread but you're arguing from an emotional viewpoint where NZ is speaking of logic. You're frustrating yourself with what's at the core of what I have read of the debate which is faith versus logic: the two are irreconcilable because one operates on the fluidity of emotions and a 'feeling' while the other has a fixed set of criteria and demands the rigors of proof.
Davan

I agree with you in that agnostics do have beliefs. I am personally of the opinion that viewpoints as they pertain to religion/non-religion are all beliefs....but the only one i could think of that seemed to not espouse a fixed set of ideals that i would term a "system" - i.e. there IS a god or there isn't...was agnosticism. I guess i would call myself agnostic. I would LOVE for their to be some divine plan/plane etc. but i cannot conceptualize/feel/have faith that there is, so i am left with agnosticism. Because i scare easily and don't like feeling nihilistic and having an exisitential crisis sucks!

I can argue both sides, but logically, some points i cannot reconcile - like agnostic atheists or christian jews. Beyond that, i have moments of feeling like my signature line and moments of feeling like NZ.

And moments of inexplicable insanity when i continue to post on a thread online when i should be asleep, dreaming of nirvana...or at least good sex!

< Message edited by eponavet -- 9/10/2009 11:18:40 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 11:10:09 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael
I do agree that agnostic atheists are a contradiction in terms

Do you think that agnostic theists are a contradiction in terms?

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Post #: 359

RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/10/2009 11:16:31 PM

eponavet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet
the dictionary

THE dictionary, I was under the impression that there was more than one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet
And you are right...having faith in a god without evidence as a bad plan IS a different position than it's impossible for a god to exist. One stance is called agnosticism and the other is called atheism. The "agnostic atheists" are the nontheistic version of the christian jews (sarcasm for anyone who thinks i need to provide data for that comment)..... I mean seriously....wtf????

So are you saying that I'm not a twue atheist? There are christian jews by the way.

Really? cuz i thought i just pulled that one out of my ass.....

And i am saying that you yourself said that you are agnostic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
My own view when it comes to the existence(under any definition of the word) of a deity/s(under any definition of the word) is that I don't know.

I could give a rat's ass if your call yourself the Lucky Charm leprechaun. Either way, you believe something....according to you, as it pertains to the existence of god, you don't know. So that would allow the rest of us to deduce that you are agnostic.

*edit to add* I could not think of another way to word that last sentence. "God" forbid you think i was telling you what you "can" do. I wasn't. I was using a common, albeit snarky, phraseology to convey my irritation. I apologize that the debate devolved into that and removed the last sentence.

Good night

< Message edited by eponavet -- 9/10/2009 11:39:05 PM >

_____________________________

~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~

(in reply to GotSteel)

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