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RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/10/2009 7:41:22 PM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

hey are creating a divide that is going to be hard to forget and overcome. IMO ORIGINAL: Louve00

I was waiting for someone to make this the Democrat's fault. After all, the republicans have been so forgiving, bi partisan and reasonable. On behalf of all us big, mean democrats, I sowwy.

Feel better?

If you think I'm trying to make the democrats the bad guys, you're gonna have to keep looking. I meant the republicans when I said the divide was getting deeper. If you're looking for spin, then hear this....when Obama said he wanted the health care to benefit the american people the way it benefits the insurance companies, then went on to say the insurance companies weren't all bad guys and should indeed make a profit....but a fair one. Hannity spinned that to..."Obama is calling insurance companies the bad guys, now" (of course, you have to follow Hannity's logic to understand that though...and I don't lol)

Now....do you feel better?

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Post #: 21

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/10/2009 8:09:15 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

Now....do you feel better? ORIGINAL: Louve00

Now....do you feel better?

Actually, what would make me feel better is a government that didn't embarrass me in some way on both sides of the divide on a daily basis.

(in reply to Louve00)

Post #: 22

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/10/2009 8:34:00 PM

Arpig

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~FR~
Personally I don't see the big deal. So a politician told one of his opponents he lied. Hell in his speech Obama said that all the Republicans who spread the various scare stories lied. Maybe I am just used to the Parliamentary system, where heckling is a tradition (granted there are rules as to how one goes about doing it...saying "You lie" would be against the rules, but saying "Not true" would be within the rules....yeah I know, its a silly distinction, but them's the rules).

I see no reason why he should apologize or be punished, except perhaps for using unparliamentary language. If he were my representative I wouldn't let what he did influence my vote, except perhaps in the positive...he said what he believes, a rare thing with politicians these days. And I think it played well with Obama as well, his response was perfect. He acknowledged the heckler and dismissed him with some class,showing that he can indeed play in the big kids' sandbox.

Its all a tempest in a teapot, much ado about nothing and if there were any sense in the political debate in the US (something I doubt more and more every day) it will fade away within a day or two, it shouldn't have made the news in the first place.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 9/10/2009 8:35:32 PM >

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RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/10/2009 8:40:36 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

Personally I don't see the big deal. So a politician told one of his opponents he lied. Hell in his speech Obama said that all the Republicans who spread the various scare stories lied. Maybe I am just used to the Parliamentary system, where heckling is a tradition (granted there are rules as to how one goes about doing it...saying "You lie" would be against the rules, but saying "Not true" would be within the rules....yeah I know, its a silly distinction, but them's the rules). ORIGINAL: Arpig

Actually, the Parliamentary system sounds like a lot of fun. I don't know about Canada but I do remember seeing on CSPAN a session where the Tony Blaire was in front of the parliament. They took turns asking him questions, whereupon he'd pop out of his chair and earnestly answer them. In turn I saw him field questions about Iraq, a bank failure, flowerbeds on a minor English road and the upcoming soccer season. What was great was that he answered all the questions with the same air of attending to serious business. A good time was had by all.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 24

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/10/2009 8:45:29 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

~FR~
Personally I don't see the big deal. So a politician told one of his opponents he lied. Hell in his speech Obama said that all the Republicans who spread the various scare stories lied. Maybe I am just used to the Parliamentary system, where heckling is a tradition (granted there are rules as to how one goes about doing it...saying "You lie" would be against the rules, but saying "Not true" would be within the rules....yeah I know, its a silly distinction, but them's the rules).

I see no reason why he should apologize or be punished, except perhaps for using unparliamentary language. If he were my representative I wouldn't let what he did influence my vote, except perhaps in the positive...he said what he believes, a rare thing with politicians these days. And I think it played well with Obama as well, his response was perfect. He acknowledged the heckler and dismissed him with some class,showing that he can indeed play in the big kids' sandbox.

Its all a tempest in a teapot, much ado about nothing and if there were any sense in the political debate in the US (something I doubt more and more every day) it will fade away within a day or two, it shouldn't have made the news in the first place.

I agree. Saying... Not true.. would have been a better way of handling it. Calling the President a liar... not so much.

The fact that this is the same man who is intending to promote his own health care bill, in my mind, may have had a lot to do with this.

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Post #: 25

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 2:13:43 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The republicans came out against him just as strongly as the democrats. Which is what this was about. Finally a bi-partisan consensus.

I Am Joe Wilson

In that sense, as cliche and leftist as it might sound, I very much am Joe Wilson in this case. And I am delighted to have seen at least one person there who actually spoke for me.

Joe Wilson's War
John Podhoretz - 09.09.2009 - 10:39 PM

Joe Wilson, the Republican congressman who interrupted Barack Obama’s speech by yelling out “You lie,” deserves censure. There is no excuse for such conduct. That said, he is about to become a folk hero.

thegoldfarb

I can no more disown Joe Wilson than I can disown the whole Republican community.

Unruly moment, manufactured outrage
By Michelle Malkin • September 10, 2009 07:44 AM

GOP Rep. Joe Wilson apologized for his outburst last night when he called out one of President Obama’s many lies.

...

The Left is in high dudgeon — never letting a moment of manufactured outrage go to waste.

Sure, members of Congress should leave the heckling to town hall protesters.

But it was Obama who said himself in the speech: “If you misrepresent what’s in the plan, we will call you out.”

That’s what Joe Wilson was doing, wasn’t it?

Note that the President can call someone a liar, but Joe Wilson is the one villified

Watch the whole tape, watch Obama point the finger and call prominent politicians (Sarah Palin chief amongst them) liars and then listen as Rep. Joe Wilson reacts (at about 2:13 into the video)... the look on Pelosi's face is priceless.

Joe Wilson is an American hero.

Barack Obama is a liar.

Joe Wilson Was Right, Obama is a Liar

Joe Wilson heckled Obama last night in his propaganda speech about health care reform, calling “liar” when Obama spoke of no coverage for illegal immigrants.

Joe Wilson was right, Obama is a liar. The Congressional Research Office has stated that care can be provided to illegals. Lets not mention the biggest lie of them all, that ObamaCare won’t increase the deficit.

Last night we saw tons of the usual fake outrage from the left, but how soon they forget.

Congressman Joe Wilson yells "liar" at Obama

I just watched the POTUS lie to the American people for like the 30th time, but this was during an address to the Joint Sessions Of Congress..

There is no abortion in the bill nor death panels?!?! I guess he has been too busy to read the bills?

He also blames spending from the last decade for his deficit problems!

All wee-wee'd up and no place to go.

It’s the day after President Obama’s Heroic!, Historic!, Game Changing! health care address to Congress; you know, the one where he basically repeated the same (lies) things he’s been saying for some time, while calling all who dispute him liars. I guess that list is getting longer too, because the AP and Reason seem to think that a significant amount of what Mr. Obama put forth last night just doesn’t add up.

Some pundits think that all the charges and counter-charges of lying make the once great man of hope-n-change come off as bitter; like a spoiled child who’s not used to being told “no”. Still others found the rehashing of his usual talking points, misdirection ploys, and straw man assassinations much like an end of summer soap opera re-run.

Congressman Wilson of South Carolina, who in a now famous moment of anger reacted stridently to one of the Presidents assertions, apologized almost immediately; but honest people understand that his was not the first boorish outburst to mar a Presidential address to Congress. Furthermore, notwithstanding his conduct, his frustration and confusion is understandable. And he isn’t the only one insisting that Obamacare will cover illegal aliens, since the non-partisan Congressional Research Service reached a similar conclusion some time ago. It seems that this time Obama’s sonorous baritone and soaring rhetoric is not going to silence some of those he wished to paint in a bad light.

Response to the President's Health Care Speech
Wed at 9:25pm

Our objections to the Democrats’ health care proposals are not mere “bickering” or “games.” They are not an attempt to “score short term political points.” And it’s hard to listen to the President lecture us not to use “scare tactics” when in the next breath he says that “more will die” if his proposals do not pass.

***

I told you civil debate is effectively dead in this country, and it was the current batch of leading Democrats who put a stake into it's heart.

Too bad for them.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/11/2009 2:14:11 AM >

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RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 2:39:13 AM

Arpig

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quote:

Actually, the Parliamentary system sounds like a lot of fun. I don't know about Canada but I do remember seeing on CSPAN a session where the Tony Blaire was in front of the parliament. They took turns asking him questions, whereupon he'd pop out of his chair and earnestly answer them. In turn I saw him field questions about Iraq, a bank failure, flowerbeds on a minor English road and the upcoming soccer season. What was great was that he answered all the questions with the same air of attending to serious business. A good time was had by all.

Yeah our system works the same way the British one does, but in Canada Question Period has become something if a joke with most questions asked with the intent to embarrass and most answers designed to dodge or deflect blame. But the principle is still the same,any member can ask any minister of the government a question on any topic he wishes. Of course who gets to ask a question is governed by how many seats the party has and who the party leader wants to do the asking of what questions, but still we do get some petty things asked (like the flowers by the road one) and even those must be answered.

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Post #: 27

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 4:08:17 AM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

There is no abortion in the bill nor death panels?!?! I guess he has been too busy to read the bills?

I told you civil debate is effectively dead in this country, and it was the current batch of leading Democrats who put a stake into it's heart.

Too bad for them.

Firm

Once again, I have to ask how a provision to allow, not mandate, not order, not require, but allow a person over sixty-five to meet with their doctor, not a panel of strangers, not a government panel of executioners to discuss end of life options is a "Government Death Panel". One of the problems with this whole debate is that such obvious lies as strewn about as loudly and passionately as the valid concerns voiced. I once again point out that this end of life counseling or "Government Death Panel" that seems like such a good point to yell about is identical to medicare reform legislation sponsored by republicans in the past.

Also, it is difficult not to ridicule the idea that shouting out during a presidential address that the president is a liar counts in any way as a civil debate. It is, if anything, the antithesis of civility. It is behavior that wouldn't be tolerated in any first grade classroom in this country and only served to help the trend of "why talk about it when you can shout?".

If you consider Wilson's actions to be civil debate, let me then civilly respond to you...."YOU LIE"

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 28

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 4:47:12 AM

OrionTheWolf

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From what I have found on the issue of Death Panels, is the board to keep cost down and eliminate waste. The fear is they will develop policies to prevent some from getting certain procedures if they are high risk for not surviving. I thought that kind of thing already went on with organ donor programs, and insurance companies. I agree that a review board to keep costs down, and a death panel are a stretch.

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RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 5:02:29 AM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

There is no abortion in the bill nor death panels?!?! I guess he has been too busy to read the bills?

I told you civil debate is effectively dead in this country, and it was the current batch of leading Democrats who put a stake into it's heart.

Too bad for them.

Firm

Once again, I have to ask how a provision to allow, not mandate, not order, not require, but allow a person over sixty-five to meet with their doctor, not a panel of strangers, not a government panel of executioners to discuss end of life options is a "Government Death Panel". One of the problems with this whole debate is that such obvious lies as strewn about as loudly and passionately as the valid concerns voiced. I once again point out that this end of life counseling or "Government Death Panel" that seems like such a good point to yell about is identical to medicare reform legislation sponsored by republicans in the past.

Also, it is difficult not to ridicule the idea that shouting out during a presidential address that the president is a liar counts in any way as a civil debate. It is, if anything, the antithesis of civility. It is behavior that wouldn't be tolerated in any first grade classroom in this country and only served to help the trend of "why talk about it when you can shout?".

If you consider Wilson's actions to be civil debate, let me then civilly respond to you...."YOU LIE"

No, there are no death panels.

From factcheck.org:
"...a provision in the bill that says Medicare will cover voluntary counseling sessions between seniors and their doctors to discuss end-of-life care. Medicare doesn’t pay for such sessions now; it would under the bill. End-of-life care discussions include talking about a living will, hospice care, designating a health care proxy and making decisions on what care you want to receive at the end of your life. Doctors do the consulting, not the "government" or a "bureaucracy." "
There is "language about a patient drawing up such an order stipulating their wishes, and having that order signed by a physician. There’s nothing about "an order from the government." The bill defines an order for life-sustaining treatment as a document that "is signed and dated by a physician …[and] effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment." "

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/twenty-six-lies-about-hr-3200/

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RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 5:05:09 AM

Arpig

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You're wasting your time anjelika, its been debunked repeatedly yet they continue to insist its in there somewhere....yet they can never actually tell us where.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 9/11/2009 5:06:57 AM >

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RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 5:11:45 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

If I remember correctly, President Bush was booed several times by democrats when he had his State of the Union address. The left was silent when it happened to Bush. Another double standard and I for one am not suprised.

Nor am I.

What you would find as a total outrage if it had been a Democrat acting so classless toward a Republican President you now are attempting to defend because the roles are reversed.

Pitiful.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/11/2009 5:13:40 AM >

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Post #: 32

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 5:28:24 AM

Arpig

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~FR~
Can't you guys find something important to argue about? Like maybe the content of the speech?

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Post #: 33

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 5:43:41 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Congressman Joe Wilson yells "liar" at Obama

I just watched the POTUS lie to the American people for like the 30th time, but this was during an address to the Joint Sessions Of Congress..

I told you civil debate is effectively dead in this country, and it was the current batch of leading Democrats who put a stake into it's heart.

Too bad for them.

Firm

Yeah, well like those Democrats are like really a bunch of like liars, like you know what I mean?

Great links there Firm.

Two thumbs up!

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/11/2009 5:46:31 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 5:57:01 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

~FR~
Can't you guys find something important to argue about? Like maybe the content of the speech?

Because you are used to a different political system.

In ours this is more than the "tempest in a teapot" it seems to you.

And trust me, if this had been a Democrat doing this while Bush was in office we would have had the conservative media wetting their panties and Republicans in Congress calling for his resignation.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 35

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 6:02:51 AM

Arpig

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quote:

Because you are used to a different political system.

In ours this is more than the "tempest in a teapot" it seems to you.

And trust me, if this had been a Democrat doing this while Bush was in office we would have had the conservative media wetting their panties and Republicans in Congress calling for his resignation.

OK I get that I am used to a different system,and that the GOP would be whining if it had been done to Bush just like the Dems are whining now. What I don't get is why...why is it important? What does it matter?

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Post #: 36

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 6:25:09 AM

rulemylife

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Because, for better or worse, we hold a certain respect for the office of the Presidency regardless of whether you like or respect the man holding the office.

You might just call it tradition, but open heckling of the President during a speech is not accepted.

And it shouldn't be accepted anywhere, in my view.

Regardless of who is speaking.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 37

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 6:39:04 AM

DarkSteven

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About time the two parties agreed on something. Get a few really classless louts in there and maybe we'll have enough consensus to move things forward.

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Post #: 38

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 6:45:19 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Because you are used to a different political system.

In ours this is more than the "tempest in a teapot" it seems to you.

And trust me, if this had been a Democrat doing this while Bush was in office we would have had the conservative media wetting their panties and Republicans in Congress calling for his resignation.
OK I get that I am used to a different system,and that the GOP would be whining if it had been done to Bush just like the Dems are whining now. What I don't get is why...why is it important? What does it matter?

LOTS of diverting from the thread. I startd this to point out that, finally, both sides have agreed on something! even down to the major news organizations. I could care less what the little mom and pop blog sites, the Michelle Malkin's of the world, or the left or right wing sites.

And yet, there are always those who have to even rip their own parties apart.... or those who have to spin and twist the results no matter what.

I dont want the man punished. I have a feeling he will be punished at the polls. You are entitled to a different point of view.

Firm, try some regular new sources for a change. I can google just about anything and find SOME site to support what im looking for. Doesnt make them right, accurate, or even close. You are starting to become very close to Brain, with posts of views from other people as your argument, and no substance as your own.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/11/2009 6:49:29 AM >

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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 39

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up - 9/11/2009 7:05:31 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Hiya Arpig,

Haven't you figured out that many Americans are more concerned about appearance than substance? I understand your comment though, and some Americans are getting just as sick of this. More, and more Americans wants to see some solutions to these problems, and do not care so much about any of the partisan bickering and distractions, except that it causes approval ratings for Congress to go down.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

~FR~
Can't you guys find something important to argue about? Like maybe the content of the speech?

_____________________________

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Post #: 40

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