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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

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Because you are used to a different political system.

In ours this is more than the "tempest in a teapot" it seems to you.

And trust me, if this had been a Democrat doing this while Bush was in office we would have had the conservative media wetting their panties and Republicans in Congress calling for his resignation.

OK I get that I am used to a different system,and that the GOP would be whining if it had been done to Bush just like the Dems are whining now. What I don't get is why...why is it important? What does it matter?

LOTS of diverting from the thread. I startd this to point out that, finally, both sides have agreed on something! even down to the major news organizations. I could care less what the little mom and pop blog sites, the Michelle Malkin's of the world, or the left or right wing sites.

And yet, there are always those who have to even rip their own parties apart.... or those who have to spin and twist the results no matter what.

I dont want the man punished. I have a feeling he will be punished at the polls. You are entitled to a different point of view.

Firm, try some regular new sources for a change. I can google just about anything and find SOME site to support what im looking for. Doesnt make them right, accurate, or even close. You are starting to become very close to Brain, with posts of views from other people as your argument, and no substance as your own.

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

You're wasting your time anjelika, its been debunked repeatedly yet they continue to insist its in there somewhere....yet they can never actually tell us where.

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

You forgot to work Saul Alinsky's name into that post. It's not too late to go back and stick it in somewhere.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

While I agree that there are no "death panels" per se, I think the term very effectively captures a major concern of people who understand the default operations of government.

In that sense, the right (and Sarah Palin) has come up with an effective term which captures the worries and concerns of a large number of people.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY When has the far left every been concerned about the actual facts, when they can "bumper sticker" someone or something into oblivion?

It seems that they feel that only they have the right to do such a thing. Unfortunately for them, the right seems to be learning how they play the game.

They have been "radicalizing" the political debate for decades. I'm not sure that they understand that not all the "radicals" would end up on their side.

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I find it particularly telling (from an Alinsky view) that the President accused his political opponents of lying, and called for supporters to call them on it - yet when someone takes his advice, he gets all in a snit.

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Forgive me while I translate this post from Firm-ese into English

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

While I agree that there are no "death panels" per se, I think the term very effectively captures a major concern of people who understand the default operations of government.

In that sense, the right (and Sarah Palin) has come up with an effective term which captures the worries and concerns of a large number of people.

Translation: I know it's a lie. Sarah Palin knows it's a lie. We're going to continue to spout it at every point possible because it gets people upset and makes a good shouting point.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY When has the far left every been concerned about the actual facts, when they can "bumper sticker" someone or something into oblivion?

It seems that they feel that only they have the right to do such a thing. Unfortunately for them, the right seems to be learning how they play the game.

They have been "radicalizing" the political debate for decades. I'm not sure that they understand that not all the "radicals" would end up on their side.

Translation: The left wing have been lying, ignoring the facts and bumper stickering issues for a decade. This makes them worthless, lying dogs who no one should listen to. Now the right wing is going to show them that we are even better at lying, ignoring the facts and bumper stickering issues than they could ever be. God Bless America (at least the red states)

Never have I seen such a joyful dive down to the lowest common denomenator so lovingly defended. I especially like the "Ok, I know it's a lie but I'm going to keep doing it because you started it" argument. The only thing you left out was "neener neener neener"

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

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I find it particularly telling (from an Alinsky view) that the President accused his political opponents of lying, and called for supporters to call them on it - yet when someone takes his advice, he gets all in a snit.

Actually, Firm, Obama is the one principal in this story who I haven't heard anything from...no comment other than the "That's not true" during the speech....hardly counts as getting all in a snit if you ask me.

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

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I find it particularly telling (from an Alinsky view) that the President accused his political opponents of lying, and called for supporters to call them on it - yet when someone takes his advice, he gets all in a snit.

Actually, Firm, Obama is the one principal in this story who I haven't heard anything from...no comment other than the "That's not true" during the speech....hardly counts as getting all in a snit if you ask me.

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Regardless of the truth of the "death panel" comment for Palin ("It's a higher truth"), he is saying that the opposition is lying, and to "call out" the liars.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


My point has always been that you and other's from the left of the spectrum are reaping what you have sown, and are classifying any opposing debate in the most negative light possible, effectively trying to disenfranchise a large portion of American citizens.

I have little sympathy any more for those who started the spin.

I guess you can say that the left has effectively "radicalized" me, just as they are making radicals out of an increasingly large segment of the population.

And, as I've said before, I don't think anything good will come of it. It's just that I don't believe that it's any longer possible to change the dynamic (or, at least, without great difficulty), in the normal course of events.

Firm

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

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Regardless of the truth of the "death panel" comment for Palin ("It's a higher truth"), he is saying that the opposition is lying, and to "call out" the liars.

Well on that particular point they are lying..there are no death panels, no matter how you spin it.

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

Actually, Ar, Obama is the one principal in this story who I haven't heard anything from...no comment other than the "That's not true" during the speech....hardly counts as getting all in a snit if you ask me.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Obama says to "call out" the liars.

He seems to have misrepresented and twisted the truth himself ("political spin", perhaps?).

He was "called out" on it.

What's the problem? When people follow his advice, there's something wrong with them?

Firm

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Actually, from what I read today in the NY Post (hardly a bastion of left wing Alinsky tactics on behalf of the left) Obama did respond as of today. He accepted Wilson's apology with an "Everyone makes mistakes" comment and let it drop. I would say that it showed a some degree of class...but I couldn't stand the onslaught of "NO! It shows he's evil incarnate and here's why" comments it would draw.

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


My point has always been that you and other's from the left of the spectrum are reaping what you have sown, and are classifying any opposing debate in the most negative light possible, effectively trying to disenfranchise a large portion of American citizens.

I have little sympathy any more for those who started the spin.

I guess you can say that the left has effectively "radicalized" me, just as they are making radicals out of an increasingly large segment of the population.

And, as I've said before, I don't think anything good will come of it. It's just that I don't believe that it's any longer possible to change the dynamic (or, at least, without great difficulty), in the normal course of events.

Firm

How about a simple yes or no question, Firm...Do you believe that the health reform legislation contains anything that can be accurately termed "Government Death Panels". If your answer is yes, then you are woefully misinformed. If your answer is no, you are a liar and an transmitter of lies told by others. If you decline to answer, well we all know what that will say about you.

I am not going to address the pitiful "I know it's a lousy thing to do but you lefties made me do it" arguement. I was passionatly against the war in Iraq from it's conception to today. I argued that it would be a pointless, expensive swamp from which we would not easily be able to extricate ourselves. I argued that the idea that there was WMD in Iraq, despite the claims of actual UN inspectors that there were not, was a lie. And yes, I even called Bush a liar (though not on the senate floor while he was giving a speech). What I did NOT do was start shouting "Bush wants to nuke Iraq and start world war III). That is the difference between being passionate about your cause and being a liar who will say anything to get their agenda achieved.

As for how difficult it will be to change this dynamic of lies, screaming and nonsense, how about just not doing it yourself? That'll be a welcome change.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Firm, the middle of a speech to congress is not the appropriate place to make such a statement, unless they are using political theater to manuever with.