RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up

RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 7:51:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Because you are used to a different political system. In ours this is more than the "tempest in a teapot" it seems to you. And trust me, if this had been a Democrat doing this while Bush was in office we would have had the conservative media wetting their panties and Republicans in Congress calling for his resignation. OK I get that I am used to a different system,and that the GOP would be whining if it had been done to Bush just like the Dems are whining now. What I don't get is why...why is it important? What does it matter? LOTS of diverting from the thread. I startd this to point out that, finally, both sides have agreed on something! even down to the major news organizations. I could care less what the little mom and pop blog sites, the Michelle Malkin's of the world, or the left or right wing sites. And yet, there are always those who have to even rip their own parties apart.... or those who have to spin and twist the results no matter what. I dont want the man punished. I have a feeling he will be punished at the polls. You are entitled to a different point of view. Firm, try some regular new sources for a change. I can google just about anything and find SOME site to support what im looking for. Doesnt make them right, accurate, or even close. You are starting to become very close to Brain, with posts of views from other people as your argument, and no substance as your own. tazzy, I probably read more "regular" news sources than anything else. As well as other liberal and far left sources. I was making a counterpoint to your "everyone agrees" point, and one that ties in with my comments in the "Can we stop calling everyone a nazi" thread. If you (and the other posters who wish to marginalize) the comments that I found, then you are the ones not grasping that there is a growing popular discontent on how this administration is doing business. As far as my personal opinion of Obama speech, and Wilson's reaction: I think that Obama did lie - specifically about no-illegal immigrants being covered at taxpayer expense, and whether or not the program will bust the budget. I find it particularly telling (from an Alinsky view) that the President accused his political opponents of lying, and called for supporters to call them on it - yet when someone takes his advice, he gets all in a snit. A couple of truisms come to mind: heat and kitchens, and pots and kettles. Firm edited just for Panda: SAUL ALINSKY! [:D]

FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 7:59:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig You're wasting your time anjelika, its been debunked repeatedly yet they continue to insist its in there somewhere....yet they can never actually tell us where. Arpig, While I agree that there are no "death panels" per se, I think the term very effectively captures a major concern of people who understand the default operations of government. In that sense, the right (and Sarah Palin) has come up with an effective term which captures the worries and concerns of a large number of people. When has the far left every been concerned about the actual facts, when they can "bumper sticker" someone or something into oblivion? It seems that they feel that only they have the right to do such a thing. Unfortunately for them, the right seems to be learning how they play the game. They have been "radicalizing" the political debate for decades. I'm not sure that they understand that not all the "radicals" would end up on their side. Firm edited just for Panda: SAUL ALINSKY! [:D]

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 8:17:02 AM)
You forgot to work Saul Alinsky's name into that post. It's not too late to go back and stick it in somewhere.

FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 8:28:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda You forgot to work Saul Alinsky's name into that post. It's not too late to go back and stick it in somewhere. Factually correct. See the "edited for" on both previous posts. Happy now, Panda? [:D] Firm edited just for Panda: SAUL ALINSKY! [:D]

FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 8:59:52 AM)
For tazzy, the New York Times: In Heckler's District, Support for the Outburst By ROBBIE BROWN and CARL HULSE Published: September 10, 2009 SWANSEA, S.C. — In Washington, Representative Joe Wilson of South Carolina was sharply criticized by both Democrats and his fellow Republicans for shouting “You lie!” during President Obama’s health care address on Wednesday. But here in his strongly Republican Congressional district on Thursday, he was celebrated by many of his constituents for his outburst. ... In a state famous for both its gentility and its rebelliousness, Mr. Wilson earned praise from voters who admired his message, if not his delivery. ... Aides to Mr. Wilson said his office on Capitol Hill received what may have been thousands of telephone calls on Thursday, which they estimated were supportive of the congressman by a margin of three to one. ... But most of those interviewed in the Second Congressional District, which snakes from Columbia to the Atlantic coast, said Mr. Wilson should not apologize. “Give Obama hell,” said Bob Allen, 52, a construction worker in Columbia. “I’m proud of my congressman.” Marie Briggs, 77, a retiree from Sumter, which is in a different district, said, “I guess you would say it was a mite disrespectful, but I say, ‘All the way.’ ” Mr. Wilson hit a nerve on the issue of illegal immigration. Even South Carolina supporters of a health care overhaul expressed concern about extending coverage to illegal immigrants. *** Firm (just for for Panda: Alinsky!!)

SpinnerofTales -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 9:07:03 AM)
Forgive me while I translate this post from Firm-ese into English quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY While I agree that there are no "death panels" per se, I think the term very effectively captures a major concern of people who understand the default operations of government. In that sense, the right (and Sarah Palin) has come up with an effective term which captures the worries and concerns of a large number of people. Translation: I know it's a lie. Sarah Palin knows it's a lie. We're going to continue to spout it at every point possible because it gets people upset and makes a good shouting point. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY When has the far left every been concerned about the actual facts, when they can "bumper sticker" someone or something into oblivion? It seems that they feel that only they have the right to do such a thing. Unfortunately for them, the right seems to be learning how they play the game. They have been "radicalizing" the political debate for decades. I'm not sure that they understand that not all the "radicals" would end up on their side. Translation: The left wing have been lying, ignoring the facts and bumper stickering issues for a decade. This makes them worthless, lying dogs who no one should listen to. Now the right wing is going to show them that we are even better at lying, ignoring the facts and bumper stickering issues than they could ever be. God Bless America (at least the red states) Never have I seen such a joyful dive down to the lowest common denomenator so lovingly defended. I especially like the "Ok, I know it's a lie but I'm going to keep doing it because you started it" argument. The only thing you left out was "neener neener neener"

Arpig -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 9:14:51 AM)
quote: I find it particularly telling (from an Alinsky view) that the President accused his political opponents of lying, and called for supporters to call them on it - yet when someone takes his advice, he gets all in a snit. Actually, Firm, Obama is the one principal in this story who I haven't heard anything from...no comment other than the "That's not true" during the speech....hardly counts as getting all in a snit if you ask me.

FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 9:19:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales Forgive me while I translate this post from Firm-ese into English quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY While I agree that there are no "death panels" per se, I think the term very effectively captures a major concern of people who understand the default operations of government. In that sense, the right (and Sarah Palin) has come up with an effective term which captures the worries and concerns of a large number of people. Translation: I know it's a lie. Sarah Palin knows it's a lie. We're going to continue to spout it at every point possible because it gets people upset and makes a good shouting point. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY When has the far left every been concerned about the actual facts, when they can "bumper sticker" someone or something into oblivion? It seems that they feel that only they have the right to do such a thing. Unfortunately for them, the right seems to be learning how they play the game. They have been "radicalizing" the political debate for decades. I'm not sure that they understand that not all the "radicals" would end up on their side. Translation: The left wing have been lying, ignoring the facts and bumper stickering issues for a decade. This makes them worthless, lying dogs who no one should listen to. Now the right wing is going to show them that we are even better at lying, ignoring the facts and bumper stickering issues than they could ever be. God Bless America (at least the red states) Never have I seen such a joyful dive down to the lowest common denomenator so lovingly defended. I especially like the "Ok, I know it's a lie but I'm going to keep doing it because you started it" argument. The only thing you left out was "neener neener neener" Spin it how you wish, Spinner. My point has always been that you and other's from the left of the spectrum are reaping what you have sown, and are classifying any opposing debate in the most negative light possible, effectively trying to disenfranchise a large portion of American citizens. I have little sympathy any more for those who started the spin. I guess you can say that the left has effectively "radicalized" me, just as they are making radicals out of an increasingly large segment of the population. And, as I've said before, I don't think anything good will come of it. It's just that I don't believe that it's any longer possible to change the dynamic (or, at least, without great difficulty), in the normal course of events. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 9:38:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: I find it particularly telling (from an Alinsky view) that the President accused his political opponents of lying, and called for supporters to call them on it - yet when someone takes his advice, he gets all in a snit. Actually, Firm, Obama is the one principal in this story who I haven't heard anything from...no comment other than the "That's not true" during the speech....hardly counts as getting all in a snit if you ask me. I'm not talking about Obama's reaction to Wilson's interjection. I'm talking about his political M.O.. The text of Obama's speech: NYT page 2: But what we have also seen in these last months is the same partisan spectacle that only hardens the disdain many Americans have toward their own government. Instead of honest debate, we have seen scare tactics. NYT page 4: Some of people's concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim, made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Such a charge would be laughable if it weren't so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple. NYT page 7: If you misrepresent what's in the plan, we will call you out. *** Regardless of the truth of the "death panel" comment for Palin ("It's a higher truth"), he is saying that the opposition is lying, and to "call out" the liars. Hoisted. Petard. Firm

Mercnbeth -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 9:49:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: I find it particularly telling (from an Alinsky view) that the President accused his political opponents of lying, and called for supporters to call them on it - yet when someone takes his advice, he gets all in a snit. Actually, Firm, Obama is the one principal in this story who I haven't heard anything from...no comment other than the "That's not true" during the speech....hardly counts as getting all in a snit if you ask me. And if he is as politically savvy as he's credited for being, he never will. Any response from him will bring the truth out in the open. Yes there is a provision in the pending Bill to preclude participation by undocumented workers; however there is NO verification or enforcement. A 15 year old walks in a bar and orders a beer. There is a law on the books stating that anyone under 21 should not be sold a drink. The bartender is no authority to ask for and verify an ID prior to service. Currently that is how the health care bill reads regarding the issue. That is the truth behind Senator Wilson's accusation. President Obama would prefer this died for that truth not to get out. Since Wilson now is a household name who will be appearing on a variety of the Sunday morning 'talking head' political shows; I doubt the Administration will be able to sweep this issue under the rug. Including any ID verification in the Bill will loss it's support from the members of Congress beholden to the Pro-Amnesty special interest groups. Beyond the elegant rhetoric; Obama has two groups to placate. The 'government option' group lead by the Speaker of the House, and the pro undocumented worker inclusion group; who see this as the first step to a blanket amnesty. After all, when the major issue of social services, health-care, becomes a moot point due to no ID verification, you remove that aspect from the expense side of the argument. Problem is, in a recent Rasmussen poll 83% of the people would be against the health-care Bill if it used US taxpayer money to fund health care for undocumented workers. Anyone voting for a Bill which guarantees this will happen will have to run against their representation of ignorance. What can they say; they thought the President was telling the truth? Maybe before "you're a liar!" but not now. It's become front burner. The corner has been painted by the President and he was locked into it by the attention given it by Senator Wilson. It will be interesting to see how he tries to fly above it. Obama has already scheduled for two more TV shows; Sunday on 60 Minutes and announcing how great his Administration has handled the economic crisis on Monday, speaking on the anniversary of the collapse of Lehman Brothers; speeches and campaigning. Apparently he isn't concerned about 'over exposure' exhausting his audience. The Bill that is solving our problems, won't add a dime to the deficit, and will insure healthy citizens. Why not vote on it and pass it so we can start living in that utopia? All those concerned constituents out there will be proven to have misplaced their concern and be reelected by acclimation when undocumented workers are shown the door at the newly opened facilities. Costs will go down when the $500 Billion in Medicare waste the President references is publicly identified and removed as a taxpayer expense. Employers will be hiring more people because a government health care program, run with a limitless budget, makes the current insurance companies lower their costs or close. The President doesn't need Wilson's vote nor any other from his party to get the Bill passed. I'm looking forward to the results promised Mr. President - no need for more talk - Just Do it!

Arpig -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 10:05:27 AM)
quote: Regardless of the truth of the "death panel" comment for Palin ("It's a higher truth"), he is saying that the opposition is lying, and to "call out" the liars. Well on that particular point they are lying..there are no death panels, no matter how you spin it.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 10:13:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY My point has always been that you and other's from the left of the spectrum are reaping what you have sown, and are classifying any opposing debate in the most negative light possible, effectively trying to disenfranchise a large portion of American citizens. I have little sympathy any more for those who started the spin. I guess you can say that the left has effectively "radicalized" me, just as they are making radicals out of an increasingly large segment of the population. And, as I've said before, I don't think anything good will come of it. It's just that I don't believe that it's any longer possible to change the dynamic (or, at least, without great difficulty), in the normal course of events. Firm How about a simple yes or no question, Firm...Do you believe that the health reform legislation contains anything that can be accurately termed "Government Death Panels". If your answer is yes, then you are woefully misinformed. If your answer is no, you are a liar and an transmitter of lies told by others. If you decline to answer, well we all know what that will say about you. I am not going to address the pitiful "I know it's a lousy thing to do but you lefties made me do it" arguement. I was passionatly against the war in Iraq from it's conception to today. I argued that it would be a pointless, expensive swamp from which we would not easily be able to extricate ourselves. I argued that the idea that there was WMD in Iraq, despite the claims of actual UN inspectors that there were not, was a lie. And yes, I even called Bush a liar (though not on the senate floor while he was giving a speech). What I did NOT do was start shouting "Bush wants to nuke Iraq and start world war III). That is the difference between being passionate about your cause and being a liar who will say anything to get their agenda achieved. As for how difficult it will be to change this dynamic of lies, screaming and nonsense, how about just not doing it yourself? That'll be a welcome change.

FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 10:18:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Regardless of the truth of the "death panel" comment for Palin ("It's a higher truth"), he is saying that the opposition is lying, and to "call out" the liars. Well on that particular point they are lying..there are no death panels, no matter how you spin it. He said that was only one example. In effect, he calls all opposition "a lie", but is just personalizing it on the one topic that he feels has the most traction. Again, I think there is a good argument that "death panels" is a good logic summation of the operational facts, but that isn't the reason I'm posting. Obama says to "call out" the liars. He seems to have misrepresented and twisted the truth himself ("political spin", perhaps?). He was "called out" on it. What's the problem? When people follow his advice, there's something wrong with them? [:D] Firm

SpinnerofTales -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 10:19:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Actually, Ar, Obama is the one principal in this story who I haven't heard anything from...no comment other than the "That's not true" during the speech....hardly counts as getting all in a snit if you ask me. Actually, from what I read today in the NY Post (hardly a bastion of left wing Alinsky tactics on behalf of the left) Obama did respond as of today. He accepted Wilson's apology with an "Everyone makes mistakes" comment and let it drop. I would say that it showed a some degree of class...but I couldn't stand the onslaught of "NO! It shows he's evil incarnate and here's why" comments it would draw. BTW....what do you think of seeing how many posts we can generate with the word Alinsky in it whether it pertains to the discussion or not?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 10:20:45 AM)
What I find ironic is that I just did a search on private insurance cost review panls, and many people refered to them as "Death Panels". Now the government suggests having a cost/waste review panel but it is not considered a Death Panel by some of those same political blog writers, and vice versa on the other side. So it is a death panel if you are against government universal health care as proposed by President Obama, but not the insurance company panels doing a similar job. Seems like just a term being used by both sides to either make someone afraid of the Obama plan, or Free Market insurance. Same merry go round, just another revolution.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 10:23:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Obama says to "call out" the liars. He seems to have misrepresented and twisted the truth himself ("political spin", perhaps?). He was "called out" on it. What's the problem? When people follow his advice, there's something wrong with them? [:D] Firm There is a time and place for everything, Firm. When Dick Cheny told a senior Democratic senator to go fuck himself, the senator did not do so on the senate floor. No one would have raised an eyebrow if Wilson had waited till the speech and proposal was being debated to call Obama a liar. It was that he showed the maturity of a three year old and lowered an already falling bar of civility because either a) he was trying to become the next "Joe the Plumber" darling of the far right or b) because he doesn't have the self control expected of an elected representitive. Either way, Democrats and Republicans both agree it was pretty shoddy behavior. Only those who want to see political processes degenerate into something akin to professional wrestling are defending it.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 10:24:48 AM)
I was raised that once someone accepted an apology, that everyone else is supposed to let it drop, or it is disrespectful to the person that accepted it, and offered it. So if the Reps and Dems continue to make a big deal of it, then it is just showing disrespect and continuing a side show. The real issue of whether or not illegal immigrants should be covered will be buried under the uproar caused by the outburst. quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales Actually, from what I read today in the NY Post (hardly a bastion of left wing Alinsky tactics on behalf of the left) Obama did respond as of today. He accepted Wilson's apology with an "Everyone makes mistakes" comment and let it drop. I would say that it showed a some degree of class...but I couldn't stand the onslaught of "NO! It shows he's evil incarnate and here's why" comments it would draw.

FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 10:25:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY My point has always been that you and other's from the left of the spectrum are reaping what you have sown, and are classifying any opposing debate in the most negative light possible, effectively trying to disenfranchise a large portion of American citizens. I have little sympathy any more for those who started the spin. I guess you can say that the left has effectively "radicalized" me, just as they are making radicals out of an increasingly large segment of the population. And, as I've said before, I don't think anything good will come of it. It's just that I don't believe that it's any longer possible to change the dynamic (or, at least, without great difficulty), in the normal course of events. Firm How about a simple yes or no question, Firm...Do you believe that the health reform legislation contains anything that can be accurately termed "Government Death Panels". If your answer is yes, then you are woefully misinformed. If your answer is no, you are a liar and an transmitter of lies told by others. If you decline to answer, well we all know what that will say about you. I am not going to address the pitiful "I know it's a lousy thing to do but you lefties made me do it" arguement. I was passionatly against the war in Iraq from it's conception to today. I argued that it would be a pointless, expensive swamp from which we would not easily be able to extricate ourselves. I argued that the idea that there was WMD in Iraq, despite the claims of actual UN inspectors that there were not, was a lie. And yes, I even called Bush a liar (though not on the senate floor while he was giving a speech). What I did NOT do was start shouting "Bush wants to nuke Iraq and start world war III). That is the difference between being passionate about your cause and being a liar who will say anything to get their agenda achieved. As for how difficult it will be to change this dynamic of lies, screaming and nonsense, how about just not doing it yourself? That'll be a welcome change. Keep spinning, Spinner. The topic at hand isn't about "Death panels". It's about Wilson's exclamation, and the fact that he was apparently following Obama's own advice. The "That's a lie!" interjection was in reference to Obama's claim that the proposed health care plan couldn't be used by illegal immigrants. I understand you wish to change the focus of the discussion, because your case is weak on the issue, but I'm not interested. Thanks, though. Firm

OrionTheWolf -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 10:27:03 AM)
Firm, the middle of a speech to congress is not the appropriate place to make such a statement, unless they are using political theater to manuever with.

FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/11/2009 10:27:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Firm, the middle of a speech to congress is not the appropriate place to make such a statement, unless they are using political theater to manuever with. I don't disagree, Orion. Firm

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