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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/14/2009 4:27:52 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

When you've got demonstrable, replicable methodology, come on back to the science table.

Until then, you've got guesses, interpretations and anecdotes.

But get going on that animal penal code, just in case.

An over-reliance on science can make you stupid. For years, researchers defending animal experiments argued that there was no scientific evidence that animals experienced pain the way we do, when any fool who ever owned a dog knew better.

K.

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Post #: 41

RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/14/2009 6:57:03 AM

Musicmystery

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That's a little harsh.

My point is that collecting cool stories and thinking up an interpretation for them isn't something I'd present as proof. I completely agree about animals, both as a pet owner and one who spends a lot of time in the country. But nothing here says morality automatically. Certainly it's logical that care is part of instinct, that this is a reasonable alternative explanation to the controversial conclusions presented here.

Science doesn't equal cynicism. It does separate what reliably proves true from what might be true. You started this thread asking ?Something or Nothing?" While it works for others, I can't turn to something I can't believe as a guide and in times of need. While others seem fine with periods of questioning whether something exists, I turn to what I can know is reality, as explained on the last page where I answered your question. It's why I know I can rely on it.

Anthropomorphizing can easily lead to erroneous conclusions, as it brings in sets of assumptions to models where they don't apply. Animals are indeed caring and smart and capable of judgment and more--but not in the same way as humans, just as humans are stupid in many ways if judged by animal "standards."

And granted, plenty of scientists and researchers can miss the mark too--and have.

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Post #: 42

RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/14/2009 9:29:19 AM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Not a jump at all...because if your version were possible it would have happened

Why? All possible things have happened?

...that has not been the case through human history...There has always been a value system outside of survival and self preservation.

For civilization, yes. For one million years of human history before that? I dunno.

L

So then what does your answer mean...if man has not acted only for self-preservation to date...then you mean you are right and he is wrong because no one knows what happened in prehistory? Is that not just a little weak?

I mean what can we go on but history and for the known history his argument is correct and yours is not. When the time comes that human kind ONLY acts for self-preservation then drop me a note with a na na na na na.

Butch

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Post #: 43

RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/14/2009 6:06:40 PM

Musicmystery

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See, it's this deep attachment to either/or thinking that drives these silly tangents.

I pointed out a jump in his logic. That doesn't prove or disprove anything about my claims, nor do I assert it did anywhere--nor did I even claim anything beyond pointing out a reasonable possible alternative to an explanation others assumed to be fact.

That's it. Nothing more. Show's over.

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Post #: 44

RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/14/2009 6:15:01 PM

Arpig