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Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 6:14:34 PM   
Kirata


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Status: offline 		In another thread, kittinsol made the suggestion that it would be useful to treat God and religion separately. It is perhaps also useful to observe that many people take the core values of a faith to heart without fully subscribing to all the doctrines and practices that have accreted to the formally organized expression of said faith.

It is possible, after all, and perhaps more common if truth be told, to have faith in some greater wisdom or providence without a slavish devotion to the dogmas and observances of any formal religion at all.

So, the question this thread asks is simply whether or not your life has led you to believe in some greater wisdom or providence that is fundamentally good and which, if trusted, will guide your steps toward what is best for you, and bring you stength and comfort in time of need -- without defining or interpreting it further.

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/12/2009 6:36:16 PM >
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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 6:33:10 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Just believing that there is something good, to be followed, as opposed to bad is a greater wisdom. That is at least a partial belief in a guiding judgmental entity. Without this belief there would be no reason to call any action good or bad.

Butch


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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 6:35:50 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just believing that there is something good, to be followed, as opposed to bad is a greater wisdom. That is at least a partial belief in a guiding judgmental entity. Without this belief there would be no reason to call any action good or bad.

Butch


Fair enough, though not at all what I intended to convey. I'm not looking to introduce some kind of "good versus evil" theme. Would saying something fundamentally beneficent be better?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/12/2009 6:39:36 PM >

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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 6:42:09 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I thought I was answering your question... my life experience has led me to believe there is good and evil and there is a guiding force behind these concepts that matches all religions but does not follow the dogma of any one.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/12/2009 6:50:57 PM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 6:48:36 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I thought I was answering your question... my life experience has led me to believe there is good and evil and there is a guiding force behind these concepts that matches all religions but does not follow the dogma of anyone.

Butch

Ahhhh, okay, I understand now. Thanks for your responses.

K.

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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 7:48:16 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

So, the question this thread asks is simply whether or not your life has led you to believe in some greater wisdom or providence that is fundamentally good and which, if trusted, will guide your steps toward what is best for you, and bring you stength and comfort in time of need -- without defining or interpreting it further.


If you take out the clause about "guiding me toward what is best for me", then my answer is yes - absolutely. I don't believe in a micromanaging god; I believe in a deity who understands and accepts that we live in a universe where shit happens - and expects us to understand and accept that, as well. But aside from that minor nit, my answer is an unequivocal "yes."


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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 8:08:32 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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Status: offline 		I think that to consider the idea of a beneficent force in the universe, one must also address the matter of scale.

Think for example of the brain in a human body. Now, because it's awareness is completely dependent upon that body, the good of the body is of some degree of concern to it. The body, however, is made up of cells. Now, that brain may direct that the hair on the body be cut. This results in the ending of existence of a very great number of cells. The brain is not individually aware of those cells it is killing. They are in no way a concern of the brain. It is certainly not a "I love these cells but must sacrifice them for the great good of my intentions" (in this case to have good looking hair). Therefore the existence of the brain, while good for the body as a whole, can be seen as "evil" to the cells sacrificed so cavalierly. In fact, as a system, the awareness of the brain does not at all affect cells which are "born", live and die without any conscious notice of the awareness that guides the system. 

The relationship between the brain and the individual cells of a body is far closer than that of anything that can fit the standard definition of God and an individual human being,  or even humanity as a whole when one considers the relationship between a universal creator and the universe compared to the brain and a body.. Therefore, my opinion is that if there is a creator and guider of the universe, it's existence is entirely irrelevant to any aspect of human existence.


< Message edited by SpinnerofTales -- 9/12/2009 8:13:21 PM >

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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 8:08:39 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

If you take out the clause about "guiding me toward what is best for me", then my answer is yes - absolutely. I don't believe in a micromanaging god; I believe in a deity who understands and accepts that we live in a universe where shit happens - and expects us to understand and accept that, as well. But aside from that minor nit, my answer is an unequivocal "yes."

Well, agreed. As far as a micromanaging god goes, I'd have to say things look to me like a fairly shitty job. But to clarify, by "if trusted" I meant in the sense of being able to turn to that something and ask for guidance in your life.

K.






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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 8:15:50 PM   
Kirata


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Status: offline 		Spinner,

I'll just point out that these are assumptions:

1. awareness is completely dependent upon that body

2. The brain is not individually aware of those cells.

And I specifically asked that this thread not become concerned with definitions and interpretations at all, let alone whatever you imagine a "standard" definition of "God" to be.

K.







< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/12/2009 8:26:31 PM >

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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 8:20:23 PM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		First of all let me emphasize that I am neither a believer or an unbeliever...I am undecided. There is much I see that leads me to a theist position, but God(s) as I conceive it has zero interest in what we do as individuals. In fact I suspect that god is utterly unaware of us as individuals. what we do as individuals is irrelevant to god(s).What matters is the end result..what we do as a species that matters


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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 8:34:53 PM   
DavanKael


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Status: offline 		I am god, thou art god, all that groks is god.  And, I believe I'm an inherently good person.  < shrug > 
  Davan

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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 8:36:14 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

So, the question this thread asks is simply whether or not your life has led you to believe in some greater wisdom or providence that is fundamentally good and which, if trusted, will guide your steps toward what is best for you, and bring you stength and comfort in time of need -- without defining or interpreting it further.


I think that there is a sense of motion -- certain laws by which the Universe continues to function, and within the realm of that idea, my life has led me to certain metaphysical beliefs... some sense of the general flow of the Universe, and how I fit into that flow. I don't know if I'd categorize it as "good", or even call it a 'wisdom' or 'providence', as those would imply some kind of thought-process or conscious development... To me, the whole issue is just one of energetic movement, and is neither good nor bad... it's really pretty neutral.

At the same time, I think I've developed enough understanding that I find the general flow of things to be productive and generally positive. When disturbing things happen, I don't judge them as 'fair' or 'unfair' -- though I am certainly judgmental, and will judge -behaviors- in myself and others - as being 'just' or 'unjust', from my own perspective. In general, though, I look at what allows "flow" in my life to progress, and what hinders "flow". It is this awareness that gives me the strength to hold on when the "rapids" hit.

I don't search for 'comfort'. It may be a personal quirk, but I don't really like to get too comfortable. Comfort, to me, feels like the doorway to complacency, and I really get twitchy with that whole concept. Again, for me, it all comes down to whether I am progressing or stagnant, and if I'm stagnant, I find that I can sever that which is holding me in place without hating it or reviling it--and without needing to make it wrong for -everyone- just because it is wrong for me.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 9/12/2009 8:41:35 PM >

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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 8:42:22 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

If you take out the clause about "guiding me toward what is best for me", then my answer is yes - absolutely. I don't believe in a micromanaging god; I believe in a deity who understands and accepts that we live in a universe where shit happens - and expects us to understand and accept that, as well. But aside from that minor nit, my answer is an unequivocal "yes."

Well, agreed. As far as a micromanaging god goes, I'd have to say things look to me like a fairly shitty job. But to clarify, by "if trusted" I meant in the sense of being able to turn to that something and ask for guidance in your life.


My concept of god is a deity who doesn't really offer a lot of direct guidance - a deity who says, "Yes, I'm here. And everything is working out exactly the way it's supposed to be working out. Take from that whatever comfort you need to take, and make the most of it."

I believe the answers to our lives lie within each of us, and it's up to us to find our own guidance - because if we don't find it within ourselves, if we rely on external guidance from any source other than our own hearts, it will have no true validity or relevance. I do not believe in a god who speaks directly to us or teaches us lessons in any way; I believe the best god can do - and all he's really inclined to do - is let us know that he's here, that we're not alone; and that the answers we seek are, indeed there, are accessible to us if we are truly willing to make the effort, and are worth finding.

And to answer the original question, that belief gives me a tremendous comfort and sense of personal strength. Also in regards to your original post, I embrace that belief and incorporate it into my life without subscribing to any religious affiliation whatsoever. I keep myself as far removed from religion as I possibly can, at all times.


< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 9/12/2009 9:26:48 PM >

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What immortal hand or eye
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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 8:45:57 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I believe the answers to our lives lie within each of us, and it's up to us to find our own guidance - because if we don't find it within ourselves, if we rely on external guidance from any source other than our own hearts, it will have no true validity or relevance.

Actually, Panda, I agree with you here too, because I don't see that 'something' as being wholly external to myself.

K.





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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 8:50:34 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I believe the answers to our lives lie within each of us, and it's up to us to find our own guidance - because if we don't find it within ourselves, if we rely on external guidance from any source other than our own hearts, it will have no true validity or relevance.

Actually, Panda, I agree with you here too, because I don't see that 'something' as being wholly external to myself.

K.




You are assuming that the knowledge you seek is within you...of course the problem is it is not...If we only looked within ourselves we would be stunted by denying the accumulated knowledge of our race...religion is part of this knowledge.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/12/2009 8:51:01 PM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 9:03:10 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

You are assuming that the knowledge you seek is within you...of course the problem is it is not...If we only looked within ourselves we would be stunted by denying the accumulated knowledge of our race...religion is part of this knowledge.

Butch


Yes, it is... but it also behooves a person to look at the accumulated knowledge and determine the veracity of that knowledge, at least in so far as it impacts hir own personal framework of reference to existence. Just because knowledge or, in the case of god, substantial habitual belief, exists (since the existence of god is not -known-, but is only theorized, speculated on, and accepted, for those who accept it, via the mechanism of faith) does not mean that it is something that everyone must accept or use.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 9/12/2009 9:04:00 PM >

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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 9:10:07 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I believe the answers to our lives lie within each of us, and it's up to us to find our own guidance - because if we don't find it within ourselves, if we rely on external guidance from any source other than our own hearts, it will have no true validity or relevance.

Actually, Panda, I agree with you here too, because I don't see that 'something' as being wholly external to myself.

K.




You are assuming that the knowledge you seek is within you...of course the problem is it is not...If we only looked within ourselves we would be stunted by denying the accumulated knowledge of our race...religion is part of this knowledge.


I'm sorry, but I don't agree. I'm not saying we must only look within ourselves, or that we should not be guided or informed by the experiences and the knowledge of those who have sought answers to the same questions over the course of human history. In fact, I think it would be exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, for anyone to find our answers without doing so. What I'm saying is that ultimately, at the end of the search, the answers have to come from within our own hearts, or they aren't really our answers. And they wouldn't have validity or applicability to our lives. Others who have come before us may help us find them, but they can't find them for us and they can't bring them to us on a sheet of paper. All they can do is help us see what is in ourselves.


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 9:11:08 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I agree with you...just as a baby must be taught the mores of the society it is raised in they must ultimately decide the right or wrong of those teachings as they grow.

Butch


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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 9:19:17 PM   
KatyLied


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Status: offline 		No.  I believe that we are in charge of what happens to us, with the exception of random things the universe tosses around.  I don't think there is a dude in the sky watching us or a dude in a hot place awaiting our bad deeds.  I think the universe provides random situations in which we have an opportunity to show what we are made of.  For those of religious belief, my hope would be that they learn to coexist and refrain from knocking on my door with propaganda in hand.

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RE: Something? Or Nothing? - 9/12/2009 9:30:58 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I don't think there is a dude in the sky watching us or a dude in a hot place awaiting our bad deeds.

I would prefer that people control the urge to insert into their posts dismissive caricatures of other people's religious beliefs, case in point being "a dude in the sky". This thread isn't about religion, and isn't intended to provide a venue for shit-starting pot-shots. With that noted, however, I do thank you for your response.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/12/2009 10:03:57 PM >

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