RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (Full Version)

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popeye1250 -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 12:49:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: shannie

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
I'm not sure how much coverage of our news you get there, but it seems to me, from an admittedly partisan perspective, that much of the current anger is being manufactured by conservative media sources and those who stand to benefit financially by seeing certain programs such as health care reform defeated.


Anger isn't manufactured.  It's directed.  And if people weren't being oppressed, there would be nothing to direct. And the media isn't "conservative" (or "liberal") -- it's 100% corporate.

And who stands to benefit if "health care reform" is defeated?  Insurance company lobbyists were at the White House in droves lobbying FOR the so-called "health care reform." They are against the public option (which was never truly on the table), but FOR the very heart of this whole thing -- which is to force us all to buy corporate health insurance. 

Look, the power-that-be have spent the last 20-30 years deconstructing/limiting the safety net (benefits for the mothers of young children, the elderly, the disabled). Did anyone really think "free health care for all" was on the the table?  It never was. 

People are angry for good reason.  The corporate media is convincing you (falsely!) that the entire American populace is divided into two teams -- so that we can fight/mock each other, instead of the crooks/pirates who are raping and pillaging our country.



Well said.
Funny, some say they don't want "the govt" involved in healthcare, I say I don't want Insurance Cos involved in healthcare. The more "profit" the less "care."




StrangerThan -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 4:44:39 AM)

I'll take a wild stab, even though I know you're not really asking the questions, just providing fodder for unfortunates to feed upon whilst you sit on the perimeter taking pot shots.

Conservatives are angry for lots of reasons. The left loves to promote tolerance, diversity and freedom of speech. You, yourself often whittle on that free speech stick, quite often actually. Unfortunately it's mostly just lip service. They are accepting of that which they have deemed is acceptable. Free speech mostly stops right about there. For every gun-slinger group the right has that goes out hunting crap to whine, cry, protest, and threaten, the left has a mirror image, but they seem to cry louder. Both sides promote the "out-of-touch" scenario when talking about the others. Town hall meetings for example, being overwhelmed by angry teabaggers who are not the majority and out of touch. Seems to miss the significant point that if half the country is out of touch, then so is the other half. The schism between the two is such that there is no longer common ground. In looking at both sides, honestly, I think the right is more accepting than the left. At least they don't cry as loud or as often or as voiciferously. They tend to pick bigger targets and hang on to them like pit bulls.

I don't see the tactics that have been adopted much differently than those used by the left for years. There's such a dedicated, nbc, cbs and liberal out cry over liar being screamed in congress. It is bad behavior, but then again, I watched lots of bad behavior on the left for years, including booing, turning of backs, mountains of shaking heads and rolling eyes. The only difference between wilson and much of the previous behavior is that he actually voiced the term. Shrug.

But, but, but, go ahead, say it, he screamed liar at the president. I'll agree, the president wasn't technically lying and the legislation does say that illegal types can't use government services. Sort of anti-climatic if you make them all legal though, isn't it?

Both parties are willing to sell their collective souls for votes. One of the more sickening statements I've heard a politician make came from Arlen Specter, who, in defense of voting for something conservatives didn't like - maybe the last amnesty attempt for "undocumented" (what a frigging typical word twisting to posit one thing as something else to make it more palatable) alien bill. He said, I wish someone else could vote for me. He made the statement in reference to the fact that he didn't really support the bill, but was doing it to keep his office because "angry" liberals were calling him.

Imagine the eye-roll.

Another quote on the sickening list came over Sotomeyer, when dems warned republicans they'd lose the "hispanic" vote if they stood against her.

I got politicians in washington afraid to make choices, afraid to do what they think is right, pandering to specific voting blocks just for the votes. I watched successful democratic players in the first 4-6 years of this century mimic their republican counterparts. I believe they're now called blue dog democrats. Now I'm watching some republicans try and squirm around being more liberal.

And probably the biggest grin maker is that both side seem to consider a win as a mandate, when what it most is, in reality, is hatred of the one who occupied the office last.

I honestly, dislike both. The only party I ever associated with was the Democratic party. I liken that association with the fact that I used to hunt.

Then I grew up.

Parties don't give a shit about the country. I don't care which side it is. What they care about is staying in power and villifying the other. That's about it.




SpinnerofTales -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 6:16:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I'll take a wild stab, even though I know you're not really asking the questions, just providing fodder for unfortunates to feed upon whilst you sit on the perimeter taking pot shots.




First of all, while I doubt you believe it, I don't start threads to take "pot shots". I start threads to encourage conversation on topics I think interesting to me and I hope to others. Next, I take exception to your comments on my attitude on free speech. I have never in any way, shape or form, suggested any action that would curtail free speech for anyone. I have suggested ideas for what I consider a more constructive debate, but when I have said "You're not allowed to protest" or "someone should stop you" or even "It would be a good thing for any mechanism to be used to in any way lessen the right of anyone to say anything"? That is free speech. Once again, as many do, you are confusing the right to speak with the responsibility of anyone to listen and agree.

And on that point, this thread for example, has clarified something for me. While this is purely subjective, I think I've come up with some answers.

I think a lot of the conservative anger is due to the fact that, as a group, they've come to the political protest game rather late in the day. What those on the left have discovered is just starting to become real to those on the right: That no one is taking away your right of free speech because nobody is listening. Like the left had in the past, the right is responding by shouting louder and louder. As the left has discoverd through bitter experience, this will only result in the government and fellow citizens listening less. Meanwhile, the only people who do seem to be listening are those on the left who are as angry as those on the right. They are responding by yelling louder at those on the right. The resultant noise is drowning out all reasonable conversation. This is a frustrating thing.

What I think is the way to go is for everyone to stop shouting so loudly and try talking. Of course, this is nowhere near as much fun as wild political shouting and far less soul satisfying than a good scream. I doubt, therfore it could happen. But I do now have an idea of why many conservatives are so angry and feel so much as if their rights of free speech and protest are being taken away. It sucks to speak what you feel are important, obvious truths and not have anyone pay attention. It's not in any way marginalization, censorship or the abrogation of one's free speech rights. But it does suck.




Irishknight -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 6:35:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Parties don't give a shit about the country. I don't care which side it is. What they care about is staying in power and villifying the other. That's about it.


There is the truth that so many will refuse to hear.




MarsBonfire -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 10:56:43 AM)

What are the conservatives so mad at?

Well, I think Evan Handler just put it down perfectly:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-handler/america-i-love-you-americ_b_286226.html

Please remember, this is not offered as "proof" of anything. But it IS very much in line with my personal beliefs, and where I project where the nations is going, provided we DO remain the land of the free, and not allow ourselves to be guided by the racist fringe of the the GOP.




Mercnbeth -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 11:28:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

What are the conservatives so mad at?

Well, I think Evan Handler just put it down perfectly:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-handler/america-i-love-you-americ_b_286226.html

Please remember, this is not offered as "proof" of anything. But it IS very much in line with my personal beliefs, and where I project where the nations is going, provided we DO remain the land of the free, and not allow ourselves to be guided by the racist fringe of the the GOP.


Hey an improvement! At least now its just a "racist fringe of the GOP" instead of the usually asinine blanket approach to name calling. See - there can be movement!

I love reading the credentials of these representations of authority. Here we have another "Actor, author, screenwriter, and journalist"; expert giving an opinion taken as absolute authority; opinion mirroring agenda at minimum.

As an individual best labeled 'pragmatic' versus conservative or liberal, I'm 'angry' as well as amused at the individuals being used to support either sides dogma. Although I must say, that Handler seems to fit the academic intellectual elite who can't believe nor understand why seeing their idealism played out in practical terms is not generating the Utopian society they envision in their lectures and Doctoral thesis. They don't understand why the 'CHANGE!' mandated in November and coming into power in January hasn't mobilized the citizens of the US, let alone the rest of the world, into getting together for a morning group hug, sharing a vegan bran muffin and then whistling Kumbaya as they walk to their 'green' job.




SpinnerofTales -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 2:20:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


They don't understand why the 'CHANGE!' mandated in November and coming into power in January hasn't mobilized the citizens of the US, let alone the rest of the world, into getting together for a morning group hug, sharing a vegan bran muffin and then whistling Kumbaya as they walk to their 'green' job.


Merc,

That post was filled with sarcasm, snarkiness, snippiness and a nasty humor designed to belittle and embarrass anyone who disagrees with you.
::sniff..sniff:: Your mother and I are so very proud. [:D]




servantforuse -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 4:41:10 PM)

I wonder just how angry liberals will be in November of 2010 when they lose control of the Senate . Harry Ried might just be the first to go. Christopher ( I didn't know what interest rate I had ) Dodd might be number two.




mnottertail -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 4:42:08 PM)

I'm thinking you will see more republicans slaughtered than democrats in 2010.




tazzygirl -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 5:04:58 PM)

I agree. I see part of the problem as being a potential backlash from their own constituents for failing to "protect" them from the "health care" bill. When you stir a pot this much, you should already know the outcome.

Or, the bill could be defeated. Who knows? my crystal ball is in the shop!




SpinnerofTales -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 5:08:21 PM)

quote:

I wonder just how angry liberals will be in November of 2010 when they lose control of the Senate . Harry Ried might just be the first to go. Christopher ( I didn't know what interest rate I had ) Dodd might be number two.
ORIGINAL: servantforuse



Care to put a small (or large) wager on that, servant? I'm up for any terms you want to come up with.




Mercnbeth -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 5:44:37 PM)

quote:

I agree. I see part of the problem as being a potential backlash from their own constituents for failing to "protect" them from the "health care" bill. When you stir a pot this much, you should already know the outcome.
The 'Chicken Little' act may not play as long as it did last time it was used.

Who said this and when? "Millions of Americans are just a pink slip away from losing their health insurance, and one serious illness away from losing all their savings... And in spite of all this, our medical bills are growing at over twice the rate of inflation..."
Hint: When the person made this claim there was 15.3% of uninsured Americans. Almost 16 years to the day, President Clinton made the exact same doomsday prediction.

Know what the percentage is now? Well 15.3%.

In the 16 years since Clinton made the same representation not a damn thing changed.

Why isn't there the predicted "disaster" predicted by Obama and Democratic Congressional leaders when the Bill wasn't based by the first drop dead deadline-August 31st?

The one party control of Congress and the Presidency is beginning to enlighten people to the reality that they are served by neither party. More and more are appreciating that all incumbents should be removed. As it turns out more of them, this time around, will be Democrats. I see a big 'no confidence' vote for the Administration coming at the expense of many up for election in 2010. Doubtful it will convert the majority, but deep losses none the less. Of course things could 'CHANGE!' by 2010.




SpinnerofTales -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 6:26:22 PM)

quote:

The one party control of Congress and the Presidency is beginning to enlighten people to the reality that they are served by neither party. More and more are appreciating that all incumbents should be removed. As it turns out more of them, this time around, will be Democrats. I see a big 'no confidence' vote for the Administration coming at the expense of many up for election in 2010. Doubtful it will convert the majority, but deep losses none the less. Of course things could 'CHANGE!' by 2010. ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth



Barring the unforeseen, do you intend to follow your stated policy of opposing every incumbent of either party in '10, Merc?





DomKen -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 7:18:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I agree. I see part of the problem as being a potential backlash from their own constituents for failing to "protect" them from the "health care" bill. When you stir a pot this much, you should already know the outcome.
The 'Chicken Little' act may not play as long as it did last time it was used.

Who said this and when? "Millions of Americans are just a pink slip away from losing their health insurance, and one serious illness away from losing all their savings... And in spite of all this, our medical bills are growing at over twice the rate of inflation..."
Hint: When the person made this claim there was 15.3% of uninsured Americans. Almost 16 years to the day, President Clinton made the exact same doomsday prediction.

Know what the percentage is now? Well 15.3%.

In the 16 years since Clinton made the same representation not a damn thing changed.

Why isn't there the predicted "disaster" predicted by Obama and Democratic Congressional leaders when the Bill wasn't based by the first drop dead deadline-August 31st?

The one party control of Congress and the Presidency is beginning to enlighten people to the reality that they are served by neither party. More and more are appreciating that all incumbents should be removed. As it turns out more of them, this time around, will be Democrats. I see a big 'no confidence' vote for the Administration coming at the expense of many up for election in 2010. Doubtful it will convert the majority, but deep losses none the less. Of course things could 'CHANGE!' by 2010.

Funny the timing of this column. The very next day the Census released numbers showing that the uninsured rate is 15.4%. BTW that is down from the 2006 peak of 15.8%.

15.4% of the population without health insurance coverage still strikes me as excessive.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 7:49:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


15.4% of the population without health insurance coverage still strikes me as excessive.


Considering that it represents approximately 8 million more people than were uninsured in 1993, it is a lot.

The percentage of uninsured hasn't risen much in 16 years, but the population has increased by approximately 15%. 15.4% of 305 million is about 8 million more people than 15.3% of 250 million (did that in my head because my calculator's broken, but I trust that it's close enough to make my point).




MarsBonfire -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 7:51:38 PM)

Unfortunately, Mercandbeth, the majority of the GOP is currently made up of "The racist fringe of the GOP".  The Republicans have pretty much driven off any moderates, and continue to do so.

With all the loony crap this party has been slinging, who do you really think is coming off as the adults in the room? Because of that, who do you REALLY think has a better chance of swinging the centrist bulk of the American voting public?

Sure, the media loves you guys. (I used to go to Sience Fiction cons too... and the media crews invariably picked out the biggest nutbags in the room to get their soundbites from. Same with you guys) Except, there's nothing much left to the "Grand Ol' Party" but crybabies like Beck, drug addled creeps like Limbaugh, and self-important morons like O'Riley. If Wilson has proved anything to the people watching on TV, it's not that he's a "courageous truth teller" but rather that he's the deliquent child of absentee leadership. The GOP is an absentee parent, and their latchkey kids are trashing their house.

I figure, long before the 2012 election cycle begins, eith the few remaining real Republicans will have to step up to the plate, or the GOP will simply disappear up it's own lunatic ass.




Arpig -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 8:05:07 PM)

quote:

I wonder just how angry liberals will be in November of 2010 when they lose control of the Senate . Harry Ried might just be the first to go. Christopher ( I didn't know what interest rate I had ) Dodd might be number two.
Not in the slightest...disappointed perhaps,but angry?? What is to get angry about...its an election, there will be another in a few years and we all get another go at it. A lost election isn't worth getting angry over, nor is it worth getting upset about, well except to yell at the TV a bit on election night.




Arpig -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 8:08:46 PM)

quote:


In the 16 years since Clinton made the same representation not a damn thing changed.
Well nothing except that you guys are paying a shitload more it now.




Mercnbeth -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 8:17:57 PM)

quote:

Barring the unforeseen, do you intend to follow your stated policy of opposing every incumbent of either party in '10, Merc?
Yes, and every election that comes up before then.




SpinnerofTales -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/15/2009 8:26:16 PM)

quote:


Deranged



Posts: 9719

quote:

Barring the unforeseen, do you intend to follow your stated policy of opposing every incumbent of either party in '10, Merc?

Yes, and every election that comes up before then.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Barring the unforeseen, do you intend to follow your stated policy of opposing every incumbent of either party in '10, Merc?
Yes, and every election that comes up before then.


You know, Merc. That's why I like you. I don't agree with much that you say after "hello" but you walk it like you talk it, you don't pull "facts' out of your ass (sure you spin a bit but if we got rid of everyone who spun, the silence would be deafening), and every now and then you show a nasty sense of humour (singing Kuhmbaya while waking to their green jobs was great).

Write on, Brother, write on.




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