What Are the Conservatives So Mad At?

What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (Full Version)

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SpinnerofTales -> What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 2:03:23 PM)
I brought this up briefly in another thread but I think it deserves it's own. To my brethren on the right: What has made you feel so incredibly abused? I am not saying that there are not progressives.who lie, shout and generally act in a less than constructive manner. But I have to say I haven't seen the tremendous sense of persecution from the progressive side of the aisle that seems to be coming from the right. If it is mentioned that carryign around posters with swastikas is perhaps not the best idea to advance reasonable discourse, there is a flood of "you leftys did this, that and the other thing." If it is mentioned that doing anything and everything to paint an administration as actively seeking to change the fundamental nature of this country, a hail of cries decrying what was done to George Bush and Dick Cheny, two politicians who became so unpopular that their own party didn't invite them to speak at their own convention. I have even seen one poster, in so many words, say "I know what I am saying is a lie...but you democrats let too". So rather than following this from thread to thread, let's get it all out in the open. What makes you conservatives feel so slighted that you have adopted tactics that you ahve spent years speaking against? What has happened that has caused you to think your rights of free speech have been so abrogated that only the most strident level of discourse is left to you? What, if anything, would it take to get you to stop excusing every bit of poor behavior with the argument "you started it?" We've been seeing it all over these threads. Let's stake out this place and finally talk about the dead elephant (no slight intended against the republicans, it's just an expression) in the room What has your guys feeling so completely abused and picked upon that any tactics you see or use that advances your cause is deemed appropriate?

Arpig -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 2:08:45 PM)
quote: What, if anything, would it take to get you to stop excusing every bit of poor behavior with the argument "you started it?" To be honest I recall a good amount of this from the other side a few years ago...along with things like "shrub" and "monkeyboy". Its nothing new really, the side who lost the election spends 4 years screaming bloody murder about how abused they are and how much of an idiot the guy who won is...how he is either not actually an American or how he stole the election....SSDD

shannie -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 2:20:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales I brought this up briefly in another thread but I think it deserves it's own. To my brethren on the right: What has made you feel so incredibly abused? I am not saying that there are not progressives.who lie, shout and generally act in a less than constructive manner. But I have to say I haven't seen the tremendous sense of persecution from the progressive side of the aisle that seems to be coming from the right. If it is mentioned that carryign around posters with swastikas is perhaps not the best idea to advance reasonable discourse, there is a flood of "you leftys did this, that and the other thing." If it is mentioned that doing anything and everything to paint an administration as actively seeking to change the fundamental nature of this country, a hail of cries decrying what was done to George Bush and Dick Cheny, two politicians who became so unpopular that their own party didn't invite them to speak at their own convention. I have even seen one poster, in so many words, say "I know what I am saying is a lie...but you democrats let too". So rather than following this from thread to thread, let's get it all out in the open. What makes you conservatives feel so slighted that you have adopted tactics that you ahve spent years speaking against? What has happened that has caused you to think your rights of free speech have been so abrogated that only the most strident level of discourse is left to you? What, if anything, would it take to get you to stop excusing every bit of poor behavior with the argument "you started it?" We've been seeing it all over these threads. Let's stake out this place and finally talk about the dead elephant (no slight intended against the republicans, it's just an expression) in the room What has your guys feeling so terribly abused and picked upon? Many of your fellow Americans feel very very angry right now. Whether it's properly articulated (or properly directed) or not. When you posture yourself against (or above) them, you simply further the divide. (Divide as in "divide and conquer.") People are feeling angry for a reason. And in that sense, I have more in common with any pissed-off redneck with a swastika sign than I do with the corporate lackeys (of either fake persuasion) who are raping and pillaging this country every day (and successfully steering our anger and judgment toward each other, instead of toward them).

MarsBonfire -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 2:35:25 PM)
Okay, Arpig, how about if we compare and contrast what ACTUALLY has happened, against what the right is protesting about: 1. Bush actually lied to lead us into war. Yet the right is protesting about how Obama is turning the US into a "giant socialist collective." Without any evidence to support this, at all. 2. Bush DID wiretap all calls in the US, logging the infor of which exchange called the other, and for how long. The information on these calls was made available to GOP party members only. The right is protesting about "Death Panels" which do not exist. Never did. It wasn't even suggested, except in the mind of one guano-crazy woman who was seeing conspiracies peeking out of her husband's cratch zipper whan she was off her meds. 3. Cheany DID attempt to have his own "Death Squad" but pulled back from it because of the possible fallout, should the info about it be made public. Instead, they relied on Blackwater to carry out their program of rape and murder against Iraqi civilians. Somehow, that just doesn't seem to compare with the rights' hand wringing over the (fake) birth certificate which "proves" the President is not an American citizen. This is what, the third supposed "real B.C. they've found so far? 4. Bush DID establish GITMO as America's gulag. He DID authorize prisoners to be tortured, both there, and in overseas prisons like Abhu Grahib. But the right doesn't seem to be too concerned about that... they only want to support buffoons who stand up and shout "You Lie!" at the president during a joint session of Congress. (never mind it turns out the buffon was totally wrong... and now it turns out HIS STATE was one giving funds to illegals for ER care.) And this is just a smattering. I don't know about you, but I find it pretty insulting that the GOP started two wars on false pretenses, emptied the treasury, sold out soul to China, deregulated the housing and banking industries until they collapsed under their own greed... and then keep pulling this high school rumor-mongering campaign. Sort of like a murderer tossing the smoking gun to a nun in the room, and then pointing his bloodstained fingers at her, screaming "SHE DID IT!" Frankly, the GOP is dying out anyway. I just wish they'd hurry up and cack already. American needs to start mopping their shit off the Capitol floor.

popeye1250 -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 2:47:11 PM)
It's time to break this viscious cycle and have an Indepenant president and congress. All the failures that have happened in this country can be layed at the feet of Democrats and Republicans and people want to elect them again? It'll feel "good" when you stop banging your head against the wall!

DarkSteven -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 2:50:18 PM)
Plain and simple, Bush did whatever he damn well pleased for eight years and ignored the Dems. Obama by contrast has pushed an agenda which conservatives consider radically liberal (they got used to Bush over eight years). We've had eight years of disenfranchised Dems and now it looks like four (maybe eight) of disenfranchised GOPers. Unless the monkeys in DC learn to accommodate diverse views, I don;t see anything changing.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 3:21:01 PM)
I have felt abused for 20, from both the Dems and the Reps. I do not see anything productive coming from this as the OP has several digs built into it, and it will likely just turn into yet another whinefest about the other team in this great big game you are playing. What bothers me the most? That people such as yourself view this all as a game, and our country is sinking into worse times as you shake your pom poms and hoot through your cheering horn.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 4:01:27 PM)
quote: What bothers me the most? That people such as yourself view this all as a game, and our country is sinking into worse times as you shake your pom poms and hoot through your cheering horn. ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Orion, don't mistake an attitude of "If I didn't laugh I'd cry" for apathy. I would love to see a plan, a party or a candidate that would actually change things for the better. I must admit that, for a while, I thought Obama was that man and I was joyful. But what I see is that, despite the fact that I see some small improvements in policy, it's still business as usual. It breaks my heart that a country with so much promise, so much potential is being ruined by the system practiced by both sides of the aisle. So my choices are one of two a) I can avoid the entire process because it's too discouraging to deal with the nonsense or b) Try to keep some perspective, some sense of humor and accept that until something fundamentally changes, the system is going to be filled with disappointing people doing disappointing things. As for the "game" of politics, which I view as entirely separate from the actual business of running government, I will refer to the late Dr. Hunter Thompson who said (and this is not a direct quote but a paraphrase) "In any campaign, no matter how good the intentions of the candidate, there comes a point where the only thing that matters is the poll numbers". It is there that I see the "game" aspect most come into play.

Sanity -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 4:41:35 PM)
You're confusing our reaction to a target rich environment for anger.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 4:48:47 PM)
quote: You're confusing our reaction to a target rich environment for anger. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity You're confusing our reaction to a target rich environment for anger. Let me take this opportunity to apologize if I have framed the original post in a less than constructive manner. Also let me take an opportunity to try to correct that error. Can we address the two questions: What are the parameters of reasonable political debate? (I do not ask so much for a firm line of demarcation, but some agreement of what falls firmly outside that line. Much as saying that while there can be argument whether the work of Maplethorpe or Playboy magazine are or are not pornography, we can generally agree that Debbie Does Dallas IS pornography)? and What can be done, on an individual and collective basis to bring our own political conversations into accordance with those lines of demarcation?

Leiren -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 4:57:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales Let me take this opportunity to apologize if I have framed the original post in a less than constructive manner. Also let me take an opportunity to try to correct that error. Can we address the two questions: What are the parameters of reasonable political debate? (I do not ask so much for a firm line of demarcation, but some agreement of what falls firmly outside that line. Much as saying that while there can be argument whether the work of Maplethorpe or Playboy magazine are or are not pornography, we can generally agree that Debbie Does Dallas IS pornography)? and What can be done, on an individual and collective basis to bring our own political conversations into accordance with those lines of demarcation? Simple answer. We need a third party that doesn't have the hard headed attitude of the two party system. I can't even begin to count the hours during the 2008 presidential campaign that I vigorously advocated a third party candidate not corrupted by the partisanship and insider dealing of the usual Washington 'elite'.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 5:43:58 PM)
quote: I can't even begin to count the hours during the 2008 presidential campaign that I vigorously advocated a third party candidate not corrupted by the partisanship and insider dealing of the usual Washington 'elite'. ORIGINAL: Leiren Ok...so how do we make it happen. One of the big problems is that Mr. Smith does not go to Washington any more. The reasons for this are financial (campaigning takes money and raising money is an acquired skill made up of experience and many, many deals), systematic (no matter how they might battle each other, both the democrats and the republicans will band together strongly to defeat a third party candidate) and perceptual (no matter how we long for new blood, the country seems to want "experience" in it's candidates. The exception to this, of course, is the celebrity politician such as Bono, Grandy and Swrtezager) So...is there a way to broaden the two party system in a way that will provide a greater range of actual choice?

Leiren -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 6:06:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales Ok...so how do we make it happen. One of the big problems is that Mr. Smith does not go to Washington any more. The reasons for this are financial (campaigning takes money and raising money is an acquired skill made up of experience and many, many deals), systematic (no matter how they might battle each other, both the democrats and the republicans will band together strongly to defeat a third party candidate) and perceptual (no matter how we long for new blood, the country seems to want "experience" in it's candidates. The exception to this, of course, is the celebrity politician such as Bono, Grandy and Swrtezager) So...is there a way to broaden the two party system in a way that will provide a greater range of actual choice? Well, I'm tired, admittedly. But my response would be for every American to stop thinking there are only two parties to choose from. Again, it's my hope, in my lifetime, that I can vote for a third party candidate and actually be able to hope there's a chance that a third party candidate might win. As I said earlier, the two party system has been corrupted for at least 100 years. If you really read between the lines, both of the two parties have their own agenda and neither of their agendas support what our founding fathers hoped for the U.S. to wind up with. In actuality, the majority of the founding fathers were Deists. NOT Christians and nearly every one of them advised against the U.S. involving itself in 'foreign wars' that did not directly affect our own borders. Somehow that message was glossed over, ignored, and corrupted in the last two hundred years. What we've been left with is a system that the founding fathers would roll over in their graves if they actually were aware of how far the U.S. has fallen from what they intended it to be.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 6:11:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity You're confusing our reaction to a target rich environment for anger. So answer the question. He asked you guys what you're so mad about. If there are really that many reasons, it shouldn't be that hard for you to list a few of them.

shannie -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 6:57:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda So answer the question. He asked you guys what you're so mad about. If there are really that many reasons, it shouldn't be that hard for you to list a few of them. Is there really, truly anyone that's not angry? The point is that it's not constructive to characterize the American people as "two sides," and then, taking one of those sides, demand to know why "the other side" is angry.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 6:58:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Plain and simple, Bush did whatever he damn well pleased for eight years and ignored the Dems. Obama by contrast has pushed an agenda which conservatives consider radically liberal (they got used to Bush over eight years). And there it is. They got used to 8 years of Bush's destructive, corrupt, ultra-conservative insanity, and they just think that's the way it's supposed to be. And now they can't cope with the concept of responsible leaders making intelligent decisions that inconvenience them or conflict with their ideology. But I also agree that it isn't as though we didn't see a lot of anger toward Bush from the left, too. However, as Mars astutely points out, when we bitched about Bush, we didn't have to lie to do it. Almost all of our criticisms were substantially factual, and well-deserved. In that regard, there's very little comparison between the anger we directed toward him then, and the anger we see the right unleashing at Obama now. But be that as it may, I'm absolutely enjoying the hell out of watching them stamp their feet, clench their tiny little fists, and hold their breath until their faces turn blue. I scarcely have words to express how deeply satisfying and thoroughly entertaining it is, and I'm very much looking forward to another 3 and a half years of this circus.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 7:07:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shannie quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda So answer the question. He asked you guys what you're so mad about. If there are really that many reasons, it shouldn't be that hard for you to list a few of them. Is there really, truly anyone that's not angry? The point is that it's not constructive to characterize the American people as "two sides," and then, taking one of those sides, demand to know why "the other side" is angry. Well, I don't know. Yes, on the one hand, there is anger enough to go around on both sides, but on the other hand, I think the OP asks a legitimate question. The anger I'm seeing from the right seems to go way beyond rational explanation, and I'm genuinely curious to hear explanations from the conservatives about exactly where the root of it is. What have they got to be so pissed about? I don't agree with everything the guy's doing, but for the most part he seems to be making a sincere effort to fix some of the critical problems that were either ignored, exacerbated, or just plain created by the previous administration. I'd love to hear someone try to explain what rational reason they have for hating the man so much.

shannie -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 7:35:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda Well, I don't know. Yes, on the one hand, there is anger enough to go around on both sides, but on the other hand, I think the OP asks a legitimate question. The anger I'm seeing from the right seems to go way beyond rational explanation, and I'm genuinely curious to hear explanations from the conservatives about exactly where the root of it is. What have they got to be so pissed about? I don't agree with everything the guy's doing, but for the most part he seems to be making a sincere effort to fix some of the critical problems that were either ignored, exacerbated, or just plain created by the previous administration. I'd love to hear someone try to explain what rational reason they have for hating the man so much. In that case, a good question might also be, "Why aren't people who call themselves 'liberals,' more angry right now?" Maybe because it's more difficult to be angry with what you believe to be "your own team," and easier to be angry with what you perceive to be "the opposing team." I think the team mentality is at the root of it all -- both the inability by some (those who align themselves with the "Republican team") to be appropriately angry with when Bush was president, and the inability by some (those who align themselves with the "Democrat team") to be appropriately angry now.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 7:43:31 PM)
quote: In that case, a good question might also be, "Why aren't people who call themselves 'liberals,' more angry right now?" Maybe because it's more difficult to be angry with what you believe to be "your own team," and easier to be angry with what you perceive to be "the opposing team." I think the team mentality is at the root of it all -- both the inability by some (those who align themselves with the "Republican team") to be appropriately angry with when Bush was president, and the inability by some (those who align themselves with the "Democrat team") to be appropriately angry now. ORIGINAL: shannie First of all, we are no longer "liberals". We are "progressives". We rebranded ourselves when "liberal" was made a dirty word. Such is politics. On a serious note, is your point (and I ask this not to provoke or put words in your mouth but to understand) that it's not that the party out of power at any given time is too angry but that the party in power is not angry enough? Now that is an interesting, and not completely invalid point.

rulemylife -> RE: What Are the Conservatives So Mad At? (9/13/2009 7:44:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda Well, I don't know. Yes, on the one hand, there is anger enough to go around on both sides, but on the other hand, I think the OP asks a legitimate question. The anger I'm seeing from the right seems to go way beyond rational explanation, and I'm genuinely curious to hear explanations from the conservatives about exactly where the root of it is. What have they got to be so pissed about? I don't agree with everything the guy's doing, but for the most part he seems to be making a sincere effort to fix some of the critical problems that were either ignored, exacerbated, or just plain created by the previous administration. I'd love to hear someone try to explain what rational reason they have for hating the man so much. Was there a rational reason for hating Clinton so much? It was easy to see this coming, I had no doubt myself.

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