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Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 4:26:17 AM

UKEvolutionary

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I have done years of "research" into BDSM and in particular, D/s - M/s, and have had one "on-line" experience and only recently, one REAL life experience. I have to ask this !! And please bear in mind that this is "Lifestyle" and not just "Bedroom kink" !!

A Dom/me does "things" for His / Her submissive to satiate their needs, and for that, the Dom/me gets their satisfaction.

If the Dom/mes "purpose" is to fullfill the needs of their submissive for their own delight, who's REALLY " In charge" ?? I KNOW the Dom/me is "supposed" to be, but there lies the Paradox !!!

And just for the record, I will, and want to do the BEST I can for "My girl" as that is the thing that pleasures Me the most !!

Opinions please ?

Post #: 1

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 4:35:30 AM

Aileen1968

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From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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Firstly...his purpose is not to fulfill my needs. His purpose is to fulfill his needs. It's just pure luck that we are yin/yang.
I have no ability to control the relationship. I do what he tells me to do. I dress how he tells me to dress. Etc. It's quite simple.
I do those things because I love him and he has told me to. He requires those things, not because he thinks it will please me, but because it will please him.

_____________________________

(in reply to UKEvolutionary)

Post #: 2

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 4:43:31 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
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We both are. If he's not happy and walks, I can't make him stay. If I'm not happy and walk, he can't make me stay.

Beyond that, everybody gets their satisfaction in different ways so there is no one true answer.

All there is, is compatibility. Do our needs match? Do our wants match? Do our moral and ethical value systems match?

If I meet a dom who says that ever giving a sub what she wants is topping from the bottom, then I don't go any further because being denied constantly isn't something that works for me. Had that in a nilla marriage for far too long, not going there again.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Aileen1968)

Post #: 3

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 5:05:32 AM

StrangerThan

Posts: 1515
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Simple opinion. Quit worrying about what other people do and do what works for you and your girl. If doing things for her floats yer boat, do them and don't worry who might gaze down a bdsm'd nose.If fucking her like a whore and having her crawl behind you with a dog chain attached to your belt loop works for you, then have at it.

_____________________________

--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to UKEvolutionary)

Post #: 4

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 5:47:03 AM

Biryl

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Joined: 10/5/2007
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The D/S aspect of BDSM is a bit of a paradox.
The idea is that there is a dominant who is in charge and has the power (the degree of power depends upon the relationship). The submissive or slave then lacks power.
By all appearances, the dominant is in control and the submissive is not.
The truth of the matter is that the dominant has power only because the submissive yields it. The submissive still truly retains all the power. The power of the dominant is illusory, in a sense. It can come to an end at any moment when the submissive/slave decides to reject the dominant's claim over them.

Therein lies part of the appeal of dominance and submission (and what separates it from abusive or oppressive relationships). The submissive/slave makes a choice, just as the dominant does. The relationship being engaged in is a choice, constantly reaffirmed by the will of the participants involved. Aileen (forgive me if using you as an example offends you) has no power to control her relationship because she, in fact, chose to give up that power. She could choose to reclaim this power, which I imagine would end or harm her relationship with her dominant. By choosing to submit, Aileen constantly affirms her dedication to her partner, her dominant. He, in turn, affirms his dedication to her by continuing to assert power over her. Unlike many traditional or vanilla relationships, d/s relationships involve constant affirmation through choice.

To continue this to your original commentary upon pleasure: The dominant's purpose is to dominate. The submissive's purpose is to submit. It sounds like you want to pleasure your girl as best as possible because you care. That tends to be what happens in caring, mutual relationships. Even in d/s relationships, there can (and in my opinion, should) exist an equality amongst partners. Both partners should be having their needs met. Its just that these needs are being met in different ways. The dominant meets their needs through dominance and exertion of power as the submissive has their needs met through submitting and relinquishing of power. This is no way diminishes the power exchange or power relationship or even the "realness" of the power relations between the dominant and submissive. Your choosing to fulfill your submissive's desires fulfills yours. Therefore, you are meeting your own needs.

Depending upon the structures of your relationship, you may engage in activities simply for the enjoyment of your submissive. I would argue that this does not remove you from your role as a dominant. Ultimately, you're still doing those activities for yourself. You please your submissive because you gain pleasure from her enjoyment. You are still in charge, and you still decide if you're going to please her, how you're going to please her, and other specifics of the situation. She is still submitting to your will.

Still, there is a bit of a paradoxical in D&S, but that's just how it is.

(in reply to UKEvolutionary)

Post #: 5

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 6:04:14 AM

IronBear

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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If I go out of my way to fulfil a slaves needs, that is because it pleases me to do so, it may be that they have earned a treat and in the final analysis, it is my duty as the Master to provide for my property so that they may live well, grow and serve well.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Biryl)

Post #: 6

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 6:27:16 AM

agirl

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My owner does things that *need* to be done....... Whether that's for me or for him, depends entirely on the situation and his judgement on it. He's in charge of who gets what and when for the best outcome all round.

His *purpose* is to do the job he said he'd do, which is to be in control. If that means me getting needs met, then super, if that means me having to put up with not getting them met sometimes.........so be it.

Needs get prioritised.....just like a Mum that *needs* sleep badly, but still has to get up to feed baby. It can sound tricky on paper but in practicality it isn't difficult to decide what has to be done.

agirl

(in reply to UKEvolutionary)

Post #: 7

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 6:41:42 AM

lovingpet

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I guess I am not understanding why reciporcation has anything to do with power. It has come up that way on several threads as of late and I still don't get it. In order to retain a healthy relationship there is the need to do the basic relationship work, that of meeting each other's needs and hopefully more. Both people doing this is not a power struggle and says nothing of who's in charge. My goodness! If I thought every time my partner took care of me as being some sort of shift in the power structure, I would feel no security in it at all. A dominant looking after the needs and even wants of the submissive simply means that the submissive has a certain level of worth to the dominant. One takes care of a possession that they prize. Whether it be a person, a pet, a car, a home, if it is valuable, one does what is necessary for that value to remain and possibly grow over time. What is a submissive who is malnourished, sleep deprived, or medically neglected going to accomplish for the dominant? What is the yield from a depressed, resentful slave? On both counts, not nearly as much as if things were otherwise.

This is stewardship. This is being accountable for the management of what I would assume is a valuable asset. It actually sounds an awful lot like being in control to me, but then again I still stand by that meeting needs isn't about power or control. I'd say it is a good bet that most dominants will stare down meeting a need in his/her submissive that the submissive is actually trying to avoid having met. How many have mandated eating schedules, dietary restrictions, bedtimes, exercise, counseling even at the initial protest of the submissive? I would say a fair many. Acting in best interest doesn't just include those things he or she wants to address, but those that are preferrably ignored as well. It is the special honor and hard work part of being that dominant person in another's life.

The cold, hard truth of the matter is that, if anyone is really in control of a relationship, it is US. He will make decisions based on what is best for himself, for me, and for the relationship as a whole. Sometimes that means I don't get and sometimes that means he does not get. The only constant that is 100% benefited all the time is the relationship. Neither of us can set ourselves above that overall concept because then we cease to function together in a healthy or meaningful way. It is not a him or me adversarial conflict of interests. It is an absolving of insistence by us both for sake of remaining together at our optimum condition.

lovingpet

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 8

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 6:50:51 AM

GraciousLady

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Perhaps you have missed the point of things? It is pleasing and fullfilling to both the Dominant and submissive to have this dynamic in their lives. Both parties willingly and freely focus on the Dominant. Because a submissive is not an unwilling slave it has a great deal of control over what happens to it but it is not guiding the Dominant. Of course the parties involved have to have things in common like all realtionships for the relationship to work or they would not be happy and the relationship would end.

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 9

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 7:15:45 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GraciousLady

Perhaps you have missed the point of things? It is pleasing and fullfilling to both the Dominant and submissive to have this dynamic in their lives. Both parties willingly and freely focus on the Dominant. Because a submissive is not an unwilling slave it has a great deal of control over what happens to it but it is not guiding the Dominant. Of course the parties involved have to have things in common like all realtionships for the relationship to work or they would not be happy and the relationship would end.

I'm not sure if you're responding to my post or not (but just in case....no, I haven't missed the *point of things*)

agirl

(in reply to GraciousLady)

Post #: 10

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 7:43:24 AM

leadership527

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Joined: 6/2/2008
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My opinion is that you are equating "in charge" with "selfish". In fact, there is a fine tradition of leadership as service throughout human history. Once you stop seeing it as a zero sum game it'll all be much clearer.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to UKEvolutionary)

Post #: 11

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 7:52:52 AM

CreativeDominant

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I think that Biryl noted what I have noted...it does seem as if power, the exchange of power, the various ways of getting wants and needs met, is the topic of the moment right now.

There is a paradox. To an outsider that does not understand D/s...or to an insider that does not try to understand any D/s dynamic except their own...there can seem to be an inordinate amount of power residing within the dominant sphere with very little on the side of the submissive. But that is both an illusion and a truth. It is illusory in that the submissive makes a choice each day to yield her will to that of the dominant and in doing so, give up her power to make choices for herself (how much in the way of choice is left up to the dominant and submissive to decide within the parameters of their relationship) BUT she can always decide to say "no" with the full knowledge that once she says "no" to the dominant where she has said "yes" before, she has changed the dynamic in some way. It is a truth in that this power to make choices must be yielded before the D/s dynamic is in place. One does not have submission without yielding and one does not have control over another without that person yielding and the one seeking control taking what is offered up to him.

It is often said that a dominant has their wants and needs met on his time and his say-so and a submissive has her needs met on her request and her wants met when the dominant chooses. Seems like he has all the power...until you realize that unmet wants and desires over time...and how much time it takes varies for each individual...will most likely result in the eventual end of this particular D/s dynamic.

(in reply to UKEvolutionary)

Post #: 12

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 7:57:04 AM

AnimusRex

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Joined: 5/13/2006
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Ahh, grasshopper, you raise most puzzling paradox-
If a slave desires to be controlled, and the Master indulges, is He not the slave?
Hmmm...

Just as there is a line between being a generous parent and spoiling a child, there is a line between tending to the needs of a submissive, and allowing their whims and desires to take preeminence.
Not a paradox, just a healthy balance.

Now snatch the pepple from my hand....

(in reply to UKEvolutionary)

Post #: 13

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 8:58:56 AM

lovingpet

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Perhaps it is not a question of control, but of wills.

lovingpet

(in reply to AnimusRex)

Post #: 14

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 9:50:01 AM

AnnePrimrose

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Joined: 8/10/2009
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Wow, there are some really great replies to this topic! Lots of insights here!

Perhaps there is some kind of spectrum of levels or kinds of d/s relationships, from play or bedroom kink as you say, to lifestyle. I suspect there may be an entire spectrum of types of d/s even within lifestylers alone.

I can only offer a tidbit and maybe I shouldn't even post this because I cannot describe myself as a lifestyle d/s person.

There is one type of d/s relationship in which there is a psycho-spiritual journey taking place. In this type, the surrender of the sub is the surrender of the ego to the wisdom of their own psyche. This is surrender of the self (identity) to the Self (whole inner being). Taboos, fears, guilt and shame can block the way to this surrender. What lies beyond these barriers is a person able to enjoy more of the fullness of themself and more of the richness and variety of life. A dominant partner is usually familiar with this kind of "territory" and whether by intuition or familiarity, knows how to guide and facilitate the subs journey towards a fuller sense of who they are. Most of all this involves exploring the areas where the sub is blocked by fear or taboos and limiting notions of self-identity. While the dom may enjoy teasingly and playfully keeping the sub teetering on the edge of deeper self-exploration and self-realization, this can also give the sub more time to integrate the intense mixture of new and old feelings, joy and shame, freedom and fear, and adjust their self image (identity) to accommodate what they are learning about themselves. I suspect some of the doms pleasure (certainly in my case) arises from being party to and witnessing the growth and satisfaction and exhilaration the sub experiences as they break through what seemed insurmountable barriers.

For myself the bit of what might be sadism that I have torwards a male sub might be directed at the fears and resistances my sub is encountering. It is not my sub himself that I enjoy overpowering, but his fears and taboos. To the extent he identifies with those fears and taboos, it appears I am "breaking him down". I prefer to see it as breaking down his rigidity and resistance. And it is fun and there is an exhilarating feeling of power when this goes on. For whatever reason, perhaps residual from my Catholic upbringing, I like to see what I am doing as benevolent rather than selfish or mean-spirited.

I only know what little I know as such a "dominant" guide or facillitator, from having had to go through many years of a long and tortuous journey of self-discovery and reclaiming my power - both in my public and private lives. I began as a sub because I had been a victim as a child and I had a lot of fears and taboos to work through before I could enjoy my full self as an empowered woman. Some of the later stages of that journey were done through d/s relationships in which I subbed to dominant women. That was a fantastic stage for me.

As I said there is probably a vast spectrum of types of d/s relationships ranging to widely different from what I am talking about. I wouldn't know. My experiences encompass only a tiny bit of that spectrum.

Ms Priscilla Anne

(in reply to UKEvolutionary)

Post #: 15

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 3:21:05 PM

aldompdx

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RACK, SSC, SSICK (Safe Sane Informed Consensual Kink) -- it revolves around consent, not violence. That means free choice and self will, which in turn connotes self-responsibility for one's own choice.

You are the one who is always in charge of your own choice, whether it be control or surrender. In this context, personal power is never given or taken, or otherwise bargained away in exchange for fulfillment. Only the authority to exercise power may be delegated. And, such delegation may be withdrawn at any time.

Again in this stated context of consent, role paying may use seductive terms like slave, owner, the planet Gor, masochist, master, rape, torture, animalization, etc. But these are fundamentally mere fantasies, to which some become so attached or obsessed that they believe them to become reality.

It is not about the exercise of power over another (i.e., violence), it is exercise of the power to freely share yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnePrimrose
the surrender of the sub is the surrender of the ego to the wisdom of their own psyche.

Well said! I posit that all willful surrender is a reflection or derived construct of that core act.
Reason?... It is sharing the light of awareness and love, rather than the shadow of ignorance and pain evasion.

< Message edited by aldompdx -- 9/15/2009 3:40:03 PM >

(in reply to AnnePrimrose)

Post #: 16

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 3:23:54 PM

GraciousLady

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Joined: 7/7/2009
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No, I was not responding to you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GraciousLady
"Perhaps you have missed the point of things? It is pleasing and fullfilling to both the Dominant and submissive to have this dynamic in their lives. Both parties willingly and freely focus on the Dominant. Because a submissive is not an unwilling slave it has a great deal of control over what happens to it but it is not guiding the Dominant. Of course the parties involved have to have things in common like all realtionships for the relationship to work or they would not be happy and the relationship would end."

I'm not sure if you're responding to my post or not (but just in case....no, I haven't missed the *point of things*)

agirl

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 17

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 3:27:27 PM

RavenMuse

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I am the Master of this household. I have a responsibility (Assuming I want to maintain a fully functioning household) to ensure that over the scope of the relationship as a whole ALL the needs of however many people are part of the household are addressed. So yes I want what is best for My girl... however that is not ALL I want, nor does it dictate the how or when of those needs being addressed, so long as everyone's needs are addressed at some point.... and yes, My needs usually come first.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 18

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 3:31:35 PM

BKSir

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From: Salt Lake City, UT
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I fill my pets needs just as he fills mine. There are many emotional and psychological needs to be met on both sides, just as in any relationship. I take care of my pet, just as I would a 4 legged pet, only in different ways. As my pet he is my responsibility. I make sure he has what he needs, food, drink, shelter, etc. I also see that he has what he wants. Much like a cat doesn't NEED a little ball with a bell in it, neither does my pet NEED that specific t-shirt. But, at the same time, things like that do serve a dual purpose in pleasing me as well. It's fun and amusing to watch the cat play with the ball. It's pleasing to see my pet in that particular shirt because he looks so good in it. That and it's rewarding to him in the short run if he does well, I don't mind getting him something nice. That ends up rewarding me in the long run. He sees how happy things make me, he sees that he gets thanks and appreciation and occasionally a small token, and it makes him want to work all the harder. I don't really see a paradox there at all.

_____________________________

We'll begin with a spin, traveling in a world of my creation. What we'll see will defy explanation.

I am the voices in your head.

BiggKatt Studios

(in reply to GraciousLady)

Post #: 19

RE: Paradox ?? - 9/15/2009 5:49:57 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

It's symbiotic

(in reply to BKSir)

Post #: 20

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