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RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 7:50:13 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im supposed to be upset over something that happened 55 years ago?

You miss the point.

Or you illustrate it quite effectively.

Firm


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RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 7:58:36 PM   
tazzygirl


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Oh i get it. seems you decide not to comprehend what i am saying. such is your way.

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:03:49 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

There's plenty more shit, but the point I wish to make is that you (and many other left of center posters) is trying to make is both simplistic, and wrong.
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



Hey, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'll admit it. The republicans did have some appropriately disapproving things to say about David Duke. I applaud them just as I condemn the democratic party for tolerating Robert Byrd in their midst.In fact, the idea that any member of the KKK, past or present can be elected to anything is more than a little disgusting.

Haley Barbuor, though, is still pretty egregious on his own. Will you give an equal examination of the facts in that case? I see it as him refusing to ask that his picture be taken down from the CCC website. This picture shows him alongside several of the CCC hierarchy. The CCC, evidenced by it's own statement of purpose, is a racist organization who's ideals, if not methods, are equivilant to the KKK's. Barbour is a republican. Please turn your scrutiny to these facts as you did the others. Again, if I am wrong, I will admit it.

Simplistic thinking goes both ways. And I am not enough a fool to not accept when I have been guilty of it.

Spinner,

Kudos for admitting you were wrong in that specific case.

I guess we can continue to pull out counter-examples, and I could likely post something about Haley Babour, but it kinda misses the bigger picture.

I'd ask you to reflect a little about why you were so quick to tag David Duke as a "racists republican", to the point of using him as an example - twice - to make your larger point that "all republicans are racist"?  That was your point, wasn't it?

And, from a purely rhetoric, logical argument perspective, when the examples one uses to make a point are discredited, how does one adapt ones argument to take into account the changed circumstances?

A suggestion I would make (and no, you are in no way obligated to do so) is to do a little "counter-research" on your own, on Barbour, looking for exculpatory evidence as avidly as some would look for "dirt".

After all, where ever you got your Duke information was obviously (and successfully) hoping that confirmation bias would help to propagate the "all republicans are racists" meme.  Do you really wish to trust anything anyone says on the subject, either way, without a bit of critical thinking and research on the subject?

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:05:39 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Oh i get it. seems you decide not to comprehend what i am saying. such is your way.

Ok, tazzy.  Enlighten me with something other than short declarative, dismissive sentences so that I might understand your point.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:09:05 PM   
tazzygirl


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Rosa Parks ring a bell? Guess not.

Rosa Parks in 1954 refused to move to the back of the bus.

quote:

May 17, 1954 would forever change the structure of race relations in the south and in the entire United States. On that day in May of 1954, Brown vs. the Board of Education was ruled on.


Now, you are stating that in 1955, Carter asked for the schools not to be built so close together. Many communities struggled, especially in the south, for many reasons. Black parents were afraid to send their children to white schools, and the opposite was true as well.

Teachers were afraid of losing their jobs, mostly black school teachers. understandably. some schools began integration quickly, some werent even starting until 1965.

quote:

While the Brown vs. Board of education, decision brought about equality in schools it did not big about equality in parts of society. Equality in public schools did not mean equality in job opportunities. It did not mean equality in private colleges or in the availability of housing. While Brown vs. Board of education helped put an end to segregation, it did not make things fair for minorities. Inequalities would remain rampant throughout the United States, especially in the south. Even though the schools were integrated other inequalities in the South, helped to keep segregation from happening. Due to black Americans not getting the same type of job opportunities as white Americans, they did not make as much money.<a name="#4"><sup><a href="#4n"><strong>4</strong></a></sup> Due to the fact that they did not make as much money, they could not afford the same type of houses as many white Americans could. Therefore, the majority of black Americans live in the same neighborhood and communities. Therefore the children in those predominately black neighborhoods get zoned and go to the same public schools. The schools they go to are traditionally undefended. So they do not get the same quality of education even post Brown vs. the Board of Education. So even though the black American is basically desegregated there are still societal systems in place that keep the black American down. Even to day, there is a sizeable economic gap between white Americans and black Americans. Most of the wealthy people in America are white but there is even a gap in the number of middle class white Americans and the number of middle class black Americans. These social inequalities exist throughout the entire United States of America, but it is the worst in the South. The South always seems to be twenty years behind the rest of the country in terms of race relations and racial equality. Many schools in the South did not integrate when the Brown vs. Board of education decision was passed down. Many schools did not ingrate for many years afterwards. In some towns, only the high schools were integrated and they would leave the elementary school separate. In other towns , only one school would be segregated, leaving the other schools all white. Many southern colleges protested integration at there schools. The transition to integration was not an easy one in the South.


http://mgagnon.myweb.uga.edu/students/3090/3090Watson03FA.htm

an interesting article. it gives reasons why both whites and blacks at the time resisted the idea of their children mingling. it wasnt as one sided as some may wish to believe.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/21/2009 8:33:28 PM >


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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:18:44 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


First of all, Firm, if you are going to boldface my quotes, please do it in a manner that retains some degree of context. the question is whether a black democrat receives greater latitude in racial matters than a white republican
.
I will overlook this attempt to boldface words into my mouth because again, you prove my point,  I have been saying all along that a) Carter is vastly incorrect in his assertion and b) that racism among white people towards black people, whether from democrat or republican, has not been given this "witch hunt" "kill the whitey" scrutiny that many in the right seem to think is present.

As the case of Haley Barbour (who you seem to have ignored entirely. It seems that some of us can admit to being wrong about a matter, others cannot) shows, there are also republicans with blatantly racist pasts or presents. These racists have been given latitude aplenty. Carter renounced his racist ways such things as you posted are not even mentioned. Barbour still, to my knowledge, has not gone so far as to ask for his picture to be taken down from the CCC website (the racism of the CCC being another issue you've chosen to ignore). So now we have four racists, A former president, a state senator, a United States senator and a sitting governor. We have two democrats and two republicans. This does not seem like a case of "white people not being able to get away with racism the way black people can at all".

So it seems we are split in our agreement in this matter.We both agree that there are racists or people with racist pasts in the democratic party. We seem to disagree, despite what I find strong proof, that there are no racists in the republican party.

Oh...and one further area of disagreement. What Kanye West did was incredibly stupid. To try to add a racial component to "prove" the tolerance of black racism is stretching the realm of believability. 

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:29:07 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Rosa Parks ring a bell?

Another short, dismissive sentence.

Yeah, I know who she is.

Firm


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RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:31:45 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


First of all, Firm, if you are going to boldface my quotes, please do it in a manner that retains some degree of context. the question is whether a black democrat receives greater latitude in racial matters than a white republican
.
I will overlook this attempt to boldface words into my mouth because again, you prove my point,  I have been saying all along that a) Carter is vastly incorrect in his assertion and b) that racism among white people towards black people, whether from democrat or republican, has not been given this "witch hunt" "kill the whitey" scrutiny that many in the right seem to think is present.

As the case of Haley Barbour (who you seem to have ignored entirely. It seems that some of us can admit to being wrong about a matter, others cannot) shows, there are also republicans with blatantly racist pasts or presents. These racists have been given latitude aplenty. Carter renounced his racist ways such things as you posted are not even mentioned. Barbour still, to my knowledge, has not gone so far as to ask for his picture to be taken down from the CCC website (the racism of the CCC being another issue you've chosen to ignore). So now we have four racists, A former president, a state senator, a United States senator and a sitting governor. We have two democrats and two republicans. This does not seem like a case of "white people not being able to get away with racism the way black people can at all".

So it seems we are split in our agreement in this matter.We both agree that there are racists or people with racist pasts in the democratic party. We seem to disagree, despite what I find strong proof, that there are no racists in the republican party.

Oh...and one further area of disagreement. What Kanye West did was incredibly stupid. To try to add a racial component to "prove" the tolerance of black racism is stretching the realm of believability. 



*sheesh*

This is exactly the reason that Sanity has had enough of you.

Sometimes you show great promise of actually debating, and thinking, and then you get all holier than thou and start talking at 90 degrees from the subject.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:33:09 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

I'd ask you to reflect a little about why you were so quick to tag David Duke as a "racists republican", to the point of using him as an example - twice - to make your larger point that "all republicans are racist"?  That was your point, wasn't it?

And, from a purely rhetoric, logical argument perspective, when the examples one uses to make a point are discredited, how does one adapt ones argument to take into account the changed circumstances?

A suggestion I would make (and no, you are in no way obligated to do so) is to do a little "counter-research" on your own, on Barbour, looking for exculpatory evidence as avidly as some would look for "dirt".

After all, where ever you got your Duke information was obviously (and successfully) hoping that confirmation bias would help to propagate the "all republicans are racists" meme.  Do you really wish to trust anything anyone says on the subject, either way, without a bit of critical thinking and research on the subject?

Firm



Actually, Firm, you are quite off base. I have never said, nor thought that all republicans are racists. That would be as ludicrous as claiming no republicans are racists which is what I felt your twice cited "history test" was meant to demonstrate. By the way, I have nothing personal or racial against the National Committee of Black Republicans from who's website the test you cited was taken. I'm sure they are three of the nicest guys you'll ever want to meet.

The reason that I pointed out that Duke was a republican was that he is. The reason I pointed out that Barbour is a republican and a racist is that he is. It was a refutation of the argument that the republicans on any level in the current incarnation are any less racist than the democrats.

As for my point being refuted, the most important point was not. So far I've found mention of two high ranking ku klux klansmen and one supporter of the CCC (which is the clan with a better sense of fashion) all elected to important offices. Therefore, I feel my point that white racism is not over examined while black racism is condoned is still quite valid. Since it was never my intention to paint all whites, conservatives or republicans as racists, I don't see the impropriety in that.

Oh...and on a personal note, I wrote that initial post, looked at it and deleted it for a number of reasons, not the least being that I realized that my research was quick and shoddy. It was unfortunate that you spotted it and responded before I did so. The only reasons I gave you my citations were that you asked, and I believe it to be the act of an intellectual coward not to answer a direct question on a posting, even one intended to be withdrawn before drawing comment.


< Message edited by SpinnerofTales -- 9/21/2009 8:36:14 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:38:53 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

Sometimes you show great promise of actually debating, and thinking, and then you get all holier than thou and start talking at 90 degrees from the subject. ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



So when I agree with something you say or point out, I have promise. When we disagree I am holier than thou and talking 90' from the subject. What a lovely world view you have, Firm.


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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:49:47 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Rosa Parks ring a bell? Guess not.

Rosa Parks in 1954 refused to move to the back of the bus.

quote:

May 17, 1954 would forever change the structure of race relations in the south and in the entire United States. On that day in May of 1954, Brown vs. the Board of Education was ruled on.


Now, you are stating that in 1955, Carter asked for the schools not to be built so close together. Many communities struggled, especially in the south, for many reasons. Black parents were afraid to send their children to white schools, and the opposite was true as well.

Teachers were afraid of losing their jobs, mostly black school teachers. understandably. some schools began integration quickly, some werent even starting until 1965.

quote:

While the Brown vs. Board of education, decision brought about equality in schools it did not big about equality in parts of society. Equality in public schools did not mean equality in job opportunities. It did not mean equality in private colleges or in the availability of housing. While Brown vs. Board of education helped put an end to segregation, it did not make things fair for minorities. Inequalities would remain rampant throughout the United States, especially in the south. Even though the schools were integrated other inequalities in the South, helped to keep segregation from happening. Due to black Americans not getting the same type of job opportunities as white Americans, they did not make as much money.<a name="#4"><sup><a href="#4n"><strong>4</strong></a></sup> Due to the fact that they did not make as much money, they could not afford the same type of houses as many white Americans could. Therefore, the majority of black Americans live in the same neighborhood and communities. Therefore the children in those predominately black neighborhoods get zoned and go to the same public schools. The schools they go to are traditionally undefended. So they do not get the same quality of education even post Brown vs. the Board of Education. So even though the black American is basically desegregated there are still societal systems in place that keep the black American down. Even to day, there is a sizeable economic gap between white Americans and black Americans. Most of the wealthy people in America are white but there is even a gap in the number of middle class white Americans and the number of middle class black Americans. These social inequalities exist throughout the entire United States of America, but it is the worst in the South. The South always seems to be twenty years behind the rest of the country in terms of race relations and racial equality. Many schools in the South did not integrate when the Brown vs. Board of education decision was passed down. Many schools did not ingrate for many years afterwards. In some towns, only the high schools were integrated and they would leave the elementary school separate. In other towns , only one school would be segregated, leaving the other schools all white. Many southern colleges protested integration at there schools. The transition to integration was not an easy one in the South.


http://mgagnon.myweb.uga.edu/students/3090/3090Watson03FA.htm

an interesting article. it gives reasons why both whites and blacks at the time resisted the idea of their children mingling. it wasnt as one sided as some may wish to believe.

Editing the substance of your remarks, after posting it, without a disclaimer borders on the unethical.  I'm sure you didn't mean to do so, so just consider this a reminder of how others might see this.

As to the subject of your now extended post ...

So?  All true, granted.

My point in giving the information about Carter was to point out that:

1) for every republican one wishes to point out with a history tainted with racism, the "other side" could likely find one as a counter-example.

2.  Carter, in particular, as the agent of change who directly caused this threads existence, with his own unfounded accusations "racism" was a particularly meaty target.  I had more, but was just trying to make the point, not necessarily to convince anyone that Carter is a racist.  He's definitely an anti-Semite, though, but that gist for another thread, 

3. Republicans don't have a lock on people who behave badly at some point in their lives, or who are (or can be seen as) racist, or anything else, so that claims that "republicans are racist by nature" is a false logical construction, however one attempts to make the argument.  Conversely (in direct response to Spinner), not all Republicans are angels, either.

A final point that I've made repeatedly is that racism should be treated as an individual injustice, and that attempts to minimize any racist behavior to one group is - at least a tacit and in my view an overt - claim that some form of racism is justified.

Once one makes the argument that some racism is justified, then they have no standing to cry about any form of racism.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/21/2009 8:56:20 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:52:49 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

Sometimes you show great promise of actually debating, and thinking, and then you get all holier than thou and start talking at 90 degrees from the subject. ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



So when I agree with something you say or point out, I have promise. When we disagree I am holier than thou and talking 90' from the subject. What a lovely world view you have, Firm.

What I meant is that when I try to be personally non-confrontational, and not offend you personally with an argument, you seem to miss the attempt at civility, and start making accusations outside of the scope of the argument at the time.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:53:29 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

If you are from the left, it would appear that you were allowed to be racist in the past like Robert Byrd or like Jimmy Carter was when he ran for Georgia Governor in 1971 but somehow, even a hint of racism true or not, needs to be a death sentence to any politician running from the right.


Except we are talking the 1940's when he was in his early twenties.

He has long since disavowed any connection or support for them.


"A Senator's Shame: Byrd, in His New Book, Again Confronts Early Ties to KKK". Washington Post.


Still, says Ken Hechler, 90, a liberal Democratic former U.S. House member from West Virginia who served with Byrd in Congress, "It's impossible for anyone to try to whitewash the KKK and its overall symbolism."

"But at the same time," he added, "we honor those people who publicly admit the error of their ways."


Last week, Byrd said: "I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times . . . and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened."







< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/21/2009 8:55:05 PM >

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RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 8:53:51 PM   
tazzygirl


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I have already made the point that both sides of the political arena have had to deal with the shouts of racism over and over again, No one party has a lock on it. Both parties have had it said about them. Digging something up thats over a half of a century old, from a time that was so very different than now, and making that a comparison isnt going to work though.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 9:00:11 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Editing the substance of your remarks, after posting it, without a disclaimer borders on the unethical. I'm sure you didn't mean to do so, so just consider this a reminder of how others might see this.

As to the subject of your now extended post ...


oh golly gee... didnt realize you were the policy maker and the police of board posts around here.

you may, of course, ignore any posts you feel does not live up to your lofty standards. i asked a question... you were too busy replying with snarky comments to Spinner so i edited.. as IS noted when you edit a post.

im sure you will live through the experience, as has many others before you, and many will after you.

you post as you wish, and so will i.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 9:06:08 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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deleted, as will my browser be if this double posting doesn't stop..mea culpa.

< Message edited by SpinnerofTales -- 9/21/2009 9:09:18 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 9:07:14 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
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quote:

What I meant is that when I try to be personally non-confrontational, and not offend you personally with an argument, you seem to miss the attempt at civility, and start making accusations outside of the scope of the argument at the time.

Firm
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY




Then by all means let me be civil and ask you a very polite, direct question on the subject of racism in the republican and democratic parties.  (not a question of the "have you stopped beating your wife yet" variety.)

It is my belief that there are white racists or those with white racist pasts in both the democratic and republican party. Do you agree or disagree?



< Message edited by SpinnerofTales -- 9/21/2009 9:08:22 PM >

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 9:14:00 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Actually, Firm, you are quite off base. I have never said, nor thought that all republicans are racists. That would be as ludicrous as claiming no republicans are racists which is what I felt your twice cited "history test" was meant to demonstrate.

Then you didn't read the reason for my post about the history test.  It was in response to (I think) Mar's claim that the "republican right ain't never done nothing for minorities" or some such nonsense.

I've never said, nor intimated that "no republicans are racist".


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

As for my point being refuted, the most important point was not.

If you will go back and read, what I was actually refuting was your claim that not a single one of your cites, or logical propositions were false, or inaccurate.  You specifically challenged Sanity to find a single one.

I just beat him to it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

So far I've found mention of two high ranking ku klux klansmen and one supporter of the CCC (which is the clan with a better sense of fashion) all elected to important offices.

And I take this as a systemic indictment of the republican party.  That seems to be your intent.  I disabused the basic belief behind that particular thought, and I and several others gave you Democratic examples to refute your indictment of the (only) Republicans.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Therefore, I feel my point that white racism is not over examined while black racism is condoned is still quite valid. Since it was never my intention to paint all whites, conservatives or republicans as racists, I don't see the impropriety in that.

I'm not sure I even understand this part of your post.

I suspect some examples of black racism towards whites would be an appropriate rejoinder? There are quite a few.  Should I mention Al Sharpton, or Jesse Jackson, or the host of other "black leaders"? How about recent problem with accusations of rape from a black woman and a college soccer teams or the Tawana Brawley incident?

Let's talk about all of the white and asians who didn't get into a college of their choice, even though they were better qualified than some "minorities" and the white firemen who didn't get a promotion, even though they scored the highest, because the "outcome" wasn't political correct enough, and then the "standards" were changed in order to achieve the desired racial outcome?

Google.  There are a multitude.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Oh...and on a personal note, I wrote that initial post, looked at it and deleted it for a number of reasons, not the least being that I realized that my research was quick and shoddy. It was unfortunate that you spotted it and responded before I did so. The only reasons I gave you my citations were that you asked, and I believe it to be the act of an intellectual coward not to answer a direct question on a posting, even one intended to be withdrawn before drawing comment.

And I withdrew my challenge to you immediately after I saw your comments on the point, and had no intention of addressing them later, until you again opened the door, and mentioned them again.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 9:15:35 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

What I meant is that when I try to be personally non-confrontational, and not offend you personally with an argument, you seem to miss the attempt at civility, and start making accusations outside of the scope of the argument at the time.

Firm
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY




Then by all means let me be civil and ask you a very polite, direct question on the subject of racism in the republican and democratic parties.  (not a question of the "have you stopped beating your wife yet" variety.)

It is my belief that there are white racists or those with white racist pasts in both the democratic and republican party. Do you agree or disagree?

Sure. Agreed.

Firm


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Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of... - 9/21/2009 9:17:00 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But they rather obviously don't see anything so terribly unusual about rude egocentric behavior on the part of black men. Nothing racist about it. Heh. Talk about racism!

K.



So you are saying there was no media condemnation of the incident?

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 180
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