RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ...

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Ialdabaoth -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 4:45:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Face it, there is fuck all that can be done about the illegal immigrants,,,you don't have the resources to even begin to make a difference. Well, one possible solution is to ramp up the whole "minutemen" gig, give them massive federal funding and military-grade weapons, and declare open season on brown people. You wouldn't even have to make it officially about brown people; just refuse to prosecute it except as local cases, and make sure the juries are stacked properly to nullify any charges. Continue that for a few years, and the illegal immigration problem will probably dry up as a consequence. All it takes is being willing to completely abandon the idea of rule of law.

Arpig -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 4:53:06 AM)
quote: Well, one possible solution is to ramp up the whole "minutemen" gig, give them massive federal funding and military-grade weapons, and declare open season on brown people. You wouldn't even have to make it officially about brown people; just refuse to prosecute it except as local cases, and make sure the juries are stacked properly to nullify any charges. Continue that for a few years, and the illegal immigration problem will probably dry up as a consequence. All it takes is being willing to completely abandon the idea of rule of law. Oh say! Now this is a really good idea....NOT![8\|][8\|][8\|]

Arpig -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 4:57:25 AM)
quote: Dry up the work Arpig. Deportation will take care of itself. I t might,though I doubt it...but most of all it's never going to happen...the work will never dry up,nor will there ever be a really serious effort to make it do so. Again, it would be impossible to enforce. Now you need the INS going around to every employer and requiring they prove each of their employees are legal...just shifting the responsibility a little. quote: Either way, does look suspiciously like Wilson was more correct than those who screamed nay, it shall NOT be, doesn't it? Nope...at least not to me.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 4:59:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Well, one possible solution is to ramp up the whole "minutemen" gig, give them massive federal funding and military-grade weapons, and declare open season on brown people. You wouldn't even have to make it officially about brown people; just refuse to prosecute it except as local cases, and make sure the juries are stacked properly to nullify any charges. Continue that for a few years, and the illegal immigration problem will probably dry up as a consequence. All it takes is being willing to completely abandon the idea of rule of law. Oh say! Now this is a really good idea....NOT![8\|][8\|][8\|] I never said it was a good idea... just an effective one.

thishereboi -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 5:18:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: So when they make them all legal, and the workers start demanding at least minimum wage, what are the companies going to do? Pay them more or fire them and hire new illegals for next to nothing? ORIGINAL: thishereboi The problem is, it's a lot easier to blame, arrest and vilify a bunch of bottom of the economic ladder illegal immigrants than the captains of industry that are making money off their cheap labor. Of course the way to stop illegal immigration is to dry up the jobs. But getting the government to start at the top is a pipedream. Just remember, if they were to fine the team owners a million dollars every time one of their players tested positive, there would be no steroid use in major league baseball within a month. I wasn't blaming anyone, I am just wondering what will happen to those "captains of industry" when all the illegals they employ become legal and start demanding competitive pay for the job they are doing?

Irishknight -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 10:23:07 AM)
NAFTA and similar programs are going to solve the illegal problem. When there are no more jobs in this country due to corporate greed, the illegals will go home where the work is. Then we can start sneaking into their country for work.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 11:10:11 AM)
quote: Friday, September 18, 2009 Obama: Legalize illegals to get them health care By Stephen Dinan President Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage. Um... correct me if I'm wrong here, but if individuals are given legal status, they're not "illegals" any more, are they? So what's the ruckus? Maybe it's just me, but my parents aren't Native American. My dad is Sicilian and my mother Irish -- which means my parents were from immigrant families here, too. Sure, they came a few years back (like around 1925 and 1941, respectively), but they're still immigrants. At one point, they weren't citizens here. My companion's family came here on the Mayflower --talk about a boat full of illegal immigrants. There ya go... America's first exposure to "boat people". I really think we need to get over ourselves. Dame Calla

Mercnbeth -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 11:27:55 AM)
Calla, Great semantic argument. Let's build upon that logic; if they ever repeal the laws against rape, extortion, drug dealing, or murder; you won't be able to call those people criminals either. Picking and choosing which laws to obey or not is not an option when you live here or when you choose to immigrate here. Your families legal immigration has no comparison to the current illegal immigration. It's dishonoring them and the efforts it took, whether on the Mayflower or in steerage on the Titanic, to get here. The only thing they have in common with the illegal immigrants is that they were both exploited. It's not a semantic difference, the comparison is irrelevant. The issue is problematic on a number of fronts. How do you reconcile those in line waiting for legal immigration? What happens to the employers who didn't hire illegals? Why do the right thing and obey the law if somewhere down the road for political expediency the law is removed? Politically, President Obama is just reactivating President Bush's initiative that, as a result of the groundswell of decent, thankfully failed. I'm sure he didn't want this issue raised at all by Joe Wilson; however not that it is, he had to tip his hand on the immigration issue. As a result he positioning himself to lose on both.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 12:00:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Calla, Great semantic argument. Let's build upon that logic; if they ever repeal the laws against rape, extortion, drug dealing, or murder; you won't be able to call those people criminals either. Picking and choosing which laws to obey or not is not an option when you live here or when you choose to immigrate here. Your families legal immigration has no comparison to the current illegal immigration. It's dishonoring them and the efforts it took, whether on the Mayflower or in steerage on the Titanic, to get here. The only thing they have in common with the illegal immigrants is that they were both exploited. It's not a semantic difference, the comparison is irrelevant. The issue is problematic on a number of fronts. How do you reconcile those in line waiting for legal immigration? What happens to the employers who didn't hire illegals? Why do the right thing and obey the law if somewhere down the road for political expediency the law is removed? Politically, President Obama is just reactivating President Bush's initiative that, as a result of the groundswell of decent, thankfully failed. I'm sure he didn't want this issue raised at all by Joe Wilson; however not that it is, he had to tip his hand on the immigration issue. As a result he positioning himself to lose on both. I see the point in your argument, Merc, and I agree with much of it. I think that the only thing that I'd say is that our immigration system has been really broken for a very long time. I think that there are individuals here in the States (and I've known a few of them over the years) who have worked here and have paid their taxes for -years- (even though they were funding a dead person's social security in many cases), and yet they can't get "on the list". OTOH, I think we also have to draw a line somewhere. I think that, for years, we had basically an "open door" policy where anyone who wanted to could come here and make a living -- but the land is a finite resource. It think there has to be a balance between the number of immigrants that a society can managed to absorb and the number we are compelled to accept (and those numbers should balance out). The United States still has some of the most liberal immigration policies in the world. I know. I just looked at emigrating not too long ago, only to discover that having MS kept me from moving almost -anywhere- that I wanted to live. I think that developing a workable, reasonable standard for immigration is a necessity, not a luxury at this point, and that we -do- have to figure out some way of managing the issue of illegal immigrants within our country's borders. HOWEVER -- that was NOT the point of the OP. The point of the OP was that Joe Wilson was right when he called Obama a liar, after Obama said that illegal immigrants would not be covered by any national health program, specifically because Obama later said that some process needed to be instituted to enable illegal immigrants to correct their status and become legalized, and -that point-, specifically, is -inaccurate-. If these individuals were actually given legal status, they would no longer be illegal immigrants and the national health program would NOT be funding illegal immigrants, it would be providing care to people who were legitimately authorized to be in this country... hence, no lie. You may be right about the irrelevancy of the remainder of my argument. I guess that I am just sensitive to the realization that, as a first/second generation American, my place in this country came about out of the generosity of the people who were already here... something I've never forgotten, and neither did my parents or grandparents. I think I feel a sense of rightness about repaying such kindnesses with a careful evaluation of how we welcome modern newcomers to our soil... with the understanding, of course, that an infrastructure can only support so much, and I do think that we've reached a point where it is worthwhile to consider being picky and choosy about how we manage our immigration issues. Dame Calla

Mercnbeth -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 12:34:53 PM)
quote: I do think that we've reached a point where it is worthwhile to consider being picky and choosy about how we manage our immigration issues. Never would subscribe to "picky & choosy"; only following the laws and not penalizing those who do. From wherever the illegal immigrants originate; it is not the responsibility of the US to provide an opportunity they don't have in their country of birth. We have an 'open door' policy for immigration documented with rules to follow. Appreciating that it is much more difficult in 2009 than it was in the 1700's or even the early 1900's; it's still possible. There are many going through the process legally. I'd hate for them to consider themselves fools for following the law, observing millions who broke it benefit. The amnesty program rewards one sector of the US - businesses who hire and profit today from the illegals working for them with virtual government impunity to prosecution. Legalizing, or decriminalizing their actions rewards criminals. It also hurts the victims, the illegal aliens and the general US labor market. Why anyone in government, Bush or now Obama, would support this action speaks to how much they are indebted to that US business sector. Although I'm sure when the time comes we will see images of poor workers holding their children or dead bodies in the desert crossing the border; paying for those commercials are the 'special interests' benefiting from the cheap labor. On a personal note; I'm leaving in less than 30 days to begin the paperwork part of my citizenship in Italy. I expect to wait in at least a 2-3 year line. I'll follow their laws and jump through their hoops. If at some point I find the laws and hoops too difficult or impossible; I may not get to realize my goal. That's just the way it is.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 12:56:53 PM)
quote: Never would subscribe to "picky & choosy"; only following the laws and not penalizing those who do. From wherever the illegal immigrants originate; it is not the responsibility of the US to provide an opportunity they don't have in their country of birth. I'm not considering "picky and choosy" from the perspective of where a person comes from (though we already do that, since some countries can send people with nothing more than a stamp on their passport and others need a full visa to be able to set foot on our shores...). What I'm talking about is being picky and choosy in terms of what a person can contribute to the nation. Most of the places I considered moving to had some contingency in place that said that, in order to be considered for citizenship, you had to be able to provide some benefit to the country -- some skill, talent, or a willingness to do some job that they were having trouble filling inside the country's current ranks. You also had to be of sound health, fiscally and physically. While it breaks my heart that I won't get to live in the French countryside, I can completely understand that they're worried about someone with my health history, and the burden it may place on their country's resources. I think that it is time to think about what resources the United States has, and how those resources will be used by our current population (including its natural, presumed expansion by the next generation), look at what we -need- in terms of skill-sets and workforce (as well as what aspects of that workforce are already underutilized in our existing population), and then think about how to integrate -more- immigrants in a way that is going to be functional and sustainable, because what we're doing right now certainly isn't sustainable, and pretty soon, the "well of opportunity" may find itself running rather low, or so I see it. shrugs I am a realist, and realism tells me that it is a wise decision to find amenable ways to support those who are already contributing to our community, and be discerning about how we manage the influx of those who wish to start over in this country from this point onwards. DC

BKSir -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 12:57:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Friday, September 18, 2009 Obama: Legalize illegals to get them health care By Stephen Dinan President Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage. ... "Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken," Mr. Obama said Wednesday evening in a speech to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. "That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else. ... "It is ironic that the president told the American people that illegal immigrants should not be covered by the health care bill, but now just days later he's talking about letting them in the back door," said Rep. Lamar Smith of Texas, the top Republican on the Judiciary Committee. *** Of course, maybe you don't believe that this is technically lying ... You know ... no illegal immigrants will be given health coverage - because we'll simply do away with the "illegal" part of the classification! Firm Because, god forbid, we have legal immigrants here, as an actual legitimate part of the census, demographic, work force, tax-paying public, etc. No, it's much better to just take all those people that are here without being citizens and ship them home to where they came from. Oh, out of curiosity, does that include my pet? He's from Canada and doesn't have any form citizenship in the U.S. So technically, he's one of those horrible illegal aliens, and according to your thinking should be sent back home or shot at the border, not given a chance to get some form of citizenship. While we're at it, I have a couple friends here from North Korea, who are wanting to become citizens as well. Let's just send them home too. Can't have them becoming citizens. That would possibly mean they get health care for the taxes they'd be paying legally too. Although, with people like you here, it baffles and bewilders me why anyone would WANT to come to the U.S. anyway. Under your logic here, if someone buys a new car, it should always be illegal for them to drive it, instead of making it legal by licensing it. This is a whole new level for jackassery, even from you. You're not even trying to think anymore. If you were, you'd realize that, "Hey, they're citizens now, hundreds of thousands of new CITIZENS, who pay taxes, who take some of the burden off of me!" But you're too busy being a glorified sock puppet for rhetoric spewing spin idiots to care about actually reading what was said. After all, if Obama said it, it HAS to be evil, ne? I swear to god, he would offer every legal citizen in the U.S. a free ice cream cone of their choosing, and you'd find something to complain about.

tazzygirl -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 1:21:39 PM)
Is your "pet" here illegally? http://alampi.xanga.com/706619908/joe-legal-vs-jose-illegal/ and can you argue the math? its how most view illegal immigrants.

BKSir -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 1:46:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Is your "pet" here illegally? http://alampi.xanga.com/706619908/joe-legal-vs-jose-illegal/ and can you argue the math? its how most view illegal immigrants. Who is arguing math? Make them legal, and they're paying the taxes too. That's a no brainer right there. Them mentioning the $21,000 in taxes every year, sure. Make the illegal immigrants legal, which is what is being proposed and look at the boost in tax revenue. Let's just say 1 million new LEGAL workers suddenly. That's an instant boost of taxes by 21 billion dollars. But no, we can't have that, now can we? Not to mention, better workers. Working in and running kitchens, I love hiring mexicans. And yes, I hire LEGAL ones. They still do twice the work, do it better and do it at 1/3 less cost than the lazy white guys that come in and don't want to do any of the "dirty work" like standing in the dish room. In many ways, it's not even the illegal immigrants that are the problem, it's the legal citizens. Pure supply and demand there. I demand a low cost, efficient, effective and willing workforce, and they have the supply. And again, here, I am talking about the legal ones. I check their green cards and such, they pay taxes, and they're just damned happy to have a job. Pleased to be making $11 for busting their asses doing dishes and chopping celery, as opposed to bitching and moaning about sitting in a nice air conditioned cubicle for $25+/hour in a dead end job. My heart just bleeds, I tell ya. And, as far as my pet being here illegally, technically, since he doesn't want citizenship here and isn't working toward it, yes. But, he's not working illegally. Well, he may be, if considered as a houseboy/buttler/valet/servant. But that's okay. What self respecting member of the elite class doesn't have illegal gardeners, pool boys, maids, etc? ;) The thing is, the OP makes it sound like going out and becoming a citizen is as easy as going to the store and grabbing a box of cereal. It's not. It's hard work, and takes a ton of time and effort and even money. And that's if they're damned lucky. The government isn't just suddenly going to start handing out "Happy Citizen" cards. And even if they did, again, look at the tax revenue boost alone. Now, to whoever said " it is not the responsibility of the US to provide an opportunity they don't have in their country of birth." So, we should just stone to death the people who came over here to escape being stoned to death for being a woman who didn't want to wear a burka, for being gay? We should imprison and execute those that came here to avoid imprisonment and execution because they disagreed with the political landscape? It must be nice being a whole person instead of 1/3 of a man. Hearing all of this makes me confused. I'm not sure if I'm glad to be a natural born citizen of the US or if I'm ashamed of it. EDIT: to add... I'm walking away from this thread now. I'm not into fisting, so I surely don't want to remain here long enough to say something and end up with a full group of mods up my ass, so, walking away before I do say something I regret.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 2:09:52 PM)
quote: Who is arguing math? Make them legal, and they're paying the taxes too. That's a no brainer right there. Them mentioning the $21,000 in taxes every year, sure. Make the illegal immigrants legal, which is what is being proposed and look at the boost in tax revenue. Let's just say 1 million new LEGAL workers suddenly. That's an instant boost of taxes by 21 billion dollars. But no, we can't have that, now can we? Not to mention, better workers. You can say that, but you would be wrong. Assuming they, and their employers, are not breaking another law and there is withholding and all the other taxes being removed, making them legal wouldn't change the revenue. quote: Now, to whoever said " it is not the responsibility of the US to provide an opportunity they don't have in their country of birth." So, we should just stone to death the people who came over here to escape being stoned to death for being a woman who didn't want to wear a burka, for being gay? Being gay and wearing a burka are NOT against the law in the US. The US doesn't have the ability to change laws outside its borders. There are avenues to claim immigration hardship. Are you representing a large portion of the 12 million illegal immigrants are gay and/or wear burkas? Working without a visa or being in the country beyond the visa stay IS illegal. Why you would equate being gay, or wearing a burka, to an illegal act is puzzling. However, while we're on the subject, any other laws your personal situation deem should be off the books?

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 4:16:53 PM)
quote: Prosecute the employers, with heavy, million dollar fines and arrest the owner/operators and the illegals will leave on their own. Amnesty rewards the criminals, employers and the illegals, at the expense of every person in the world attempting to get her legally obeying all the laws and following the proper procedures. ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth And just when has either party in this country ever been all gung ho about prosecuting big business? Meanwhile, the talk I hear on conservative radio (and I do listen) seems to be all about the big bus solution.

UncleNasty -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 4:48:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Calla, Great semantic argument. Let's build upon that logic; if they ever repeal the laws against rape, extortion, drug dealing, or murder; you won't be able to call those people criminals either. Picking and choosing which laws to obey or not is not an option when you live here or when you choose to immigrate here. Your families legal immigration has no comparison to the current illegal immigration. It's dishonoring them and the efforts it took, whether on the Mayflower or in steerage on the Titanic, to get here. The only thing they have in common with the illegal immigrants is that they were both exploited. It's not a semantic difference, the comparison is irrelevant. The issue is problematic on a number of fronts. How do you reconcile those in line waiting for legal immigration? What happens to the employers who didn't hire illegals? Why do the right thing and obey the law if somewhere down the road for political expediency the law is removed? Politically, President Obama is just reactivating President Bush's initiative that, as a result of the groundswell of decent, thankfully failed. I'm sure he didn't want this issue raised at all by Joe Wilson; however not that it is, he had to tip his hand on the immigration issue. As a result he positioning himself to lose on both. You should have known Merc that I'd have to pick up this ball and make a wee bit of progress towards the opposite goal line. For some in this country adherence to the laws does seem to be optional. Regulators that don't regulate, enforcers that don't enforce, and courts that refuse to rule in accordance with the facts and law. The more money involved the less likely there will be anything resembling accountability. Uncle Nasty

tazzygirl -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/24/2009 5:44:13 PM)
quote: And, as far as my pet being here illegally, technically, since he doesn't want citizenship here and isn't working toward it, yes. But, he's not working illegally. Well, he may be, if considered as a houseboy/buttler/valet/servant. But that's okay. What self respecting member of the elite class doesn't have illegal gardeners, pool boys, maids, etc? ;) And that validates it. Why would you excuse that behavior? Here is another problem with illegal workers, across all lines. They pay nothing in, they get nothing out. No SSI if hurt, no Workman's Comp... cant claim an action against an employer who doesnt have you on their books... No Medicare, no SS. I dont care if they have legal citizenship, a green card, or what have you. They are here. They should be entitled to all these, plus what little protection employees have legally against abusive employers. As it stands now, they are at their bosses mercy... and collecting benefits to boot.

Brain -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/25/2009 1:32:52 AM)
No Compassion For Sick Illegal Immigrants Atlanta Journal Constitution It seems a poor reflection on one of the richest countries in the world that we are so stingy, so callous and so xenophobic Cynthia Tucker No compassion for sick illegal immigrants 5:30 pm September 22, 2009, by ctucker Working with the president, Democrats in Congress are doing everything they can to make sure no illegal immigrant gains any benefit from health insurance reform. Given the politics, you can hardly blame them. Joe Wilson isn’t the only conservative agitated over the prospect that some undocumented worker somewhere in South Carolina or Iowa or California might get cheap health insurance with a taxpayer subsidy. http://blogs.ajc.com/cynthia-tucker/2009/09/22/no-compassion-for-illegal-immigrants-needing-health-care/?cxntfid=blogs_cynthia_tucker

Archer -> RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... (9/25/2009 6:56:26 AM)
Half the problem with making the illegals legal with a stroke of the pen is it discourages those who are willing to wait their turn in line for one of the very low 60,000 Mexcican quota slots a year, from following the law/ legal path. Why wait in line when you can cross illegally and know that if you wait a few years another amnesty bill will come along.

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