RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 8:52:21 AM)

~ FR ~

There is no reason to believe that a benevolent God would be concerned to prevent everyone from dying. Every theistic religion that I know of teaches that there is no such thing as death, that only the body dies, that our essense (spirit, soul, various terms) does not.

K.





GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 8:49:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Sorry it was a long time ago, and don't have the time to do the research again. Spent damn near a decade studying theology, and it was part of that study. If it is important to you, I am sure you will research it.

I ran a search for it and came up empty before I asked.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Prayer can be a form of meditation. Faith is linked to prayer. Tai Chi uses meditation techniques. Yoga was developed for exercises to stretch and exercise muscles so that you can meditate longer.

See how it all connects now?


In above statement where you attempt to clairify, I think your making a fallacy of ambiguity called an equivocation fallacy by using different forms of the word meditation.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 8:59:22 PM)

Have you ever tried to describe the exact feeling of rock climbing, to someone that has never been more than five feet off the ground? That is how I feel at the moment. Not sure what to tell ya, other than the mind can do some amazing things. I gave you one link to a study, and you seem to just ignore that. If you have the answer predetermined, why ask the question and waste both of our time?



GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 9:05:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Have you ever tried to describe the exact feeling of rock climbing, to someone that has never been more than five feet off the ground? That is how I feel at the moment. Not sure what to tell ya, other than the mind can do some amazing things. I gave you one link to a study, and you seem to just ignore that. If you have the answer predetermined, why ask the question and waste both of our time?


I'm not ignoring it. I'm writing my response at the moment. Sorry if some point you make does slip by, I'm trying to respond to multiple posts of yours as well as other peoples and it's bound to happen.



Kirata -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 9:19:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Prayer can be a form of meditation....

I think your making a fallacy of ambiguity called an equivocation fallacy by using different forms of the word meditation.

I would not consider prayer in the form of humbly addressing a divine Other as "meditation". But I do think that Orion is nevertheless correct. Because there is also a form of repetitive prayer, in which an evocative phrase is repeated to quiet and focus the mind on the Divine. In the use of mantra as a meditation technique, it is of no practical consequence whether the japa (repetition) employ "Thy will be done" or "Namah Shivaya".

K.






mcbride -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 9:47:36 PM)

Actually, GotSteel, you just didn’t acknowledge the answers.  You asked “how people who believe that theirs a benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient deity at work in the world around us explain the death of poor old Gunther Link,” and I explained it in a couple of sentences, but since you’re such a nice guy, I’ll explain again.

People who believe that there’s a benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient deity at work in the world know two things. One is that they have God-given free will, and so, necessarily, the world has consequences, and sometimes bad things will happen, so you cannot expect to be snatched away a second before the altar comes down, or before the earthquake happens. The other is that Gunther, if indeed he was a good man, a moment after it came down, was with God, and would experience a joy and relief that would be immeasurably greater than whatever he may have suffered on Earth.

On your question about Epicurus, again, this seems like PHIL 101, and I repeat, I can’t figure out why you would think that an omnipotent and omniscient diety is restricted by Epicurus' “logical problem.” As many have pointed out, and I’ll quote an atheist site for you, “the idea that God must not be able to do something because it has not already been completed is rather illogical.” To imagine that humans can decide how and when a benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient deity should deal with evil, and how we could even conceive of all the possibilities, would seem to be a bit of hubris, to put it mildly.

I notice you’ve been asked, again, why would you think earthquakes shouldn't happen if an "omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god actually existed", so I’m looking forward to your answer.



DePubed -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 9:55:52 PM)

God simply created the universe--like someone who makes an object that he winds up and then lets go of, and it wobbles and moves around wherever it goes.  God created the Universe by winding it up and then letting it go. It goes & moves wherever  it goes while he watches it, seldom interfering.



GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 10:26:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
" Dr Newberg's earlier studies have involved the brain activity of Franciscan nuns during a type of prayer known as "centering". As the prayer has a verbal element other parts of the brain are used but Dr Newberg also found that they, "activated the attention area of the brain, and diminished activity in the orientation area." This is not the first time that scientists have investigated spirituality. In 1998, the healing benefits of prayer were alluded to when a group of scientists in the US studied how patients with heart conditions experienced fewer complications following periods of "intercessory prayer". "

http://www.crystalinks.com/medbrain.html


Thanks for the article that alludes to various studies that I can look into.

My issue with your argument, the reason I've been asking for clarification is that you've been a bit vague with core details of your point and have been playing bait and switch with the terms. When you get vague enough I can't point out things like the study brought up in the second part of that article is an older study done on a smaller group than the Harvard study I mentioned and the study your talking about was brought up in the article about the Harvard study that I linked to or that you still haven't put anything up to support your claim that:
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
those same studies also show almost identical numbers for those that meditate instead.


That's why I've been asking if you'd care to put up some sort of evidence for the claims your making.



GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 10:37:30 PM)

mcbride, your ignoring my question again. How would not forcing humanity to endure horrible suffering and violent death through "acts of god" such as Katrina, Pompeii, the Lisborn earthquake etc. negate freewill?



GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 10:48:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Prayer can be a form of meditation....

I think your making a fallacy of ambiguity called an equivocation fallacy by using different forms of the word meditation.

I would not consider prayer in the form of humbly addressing a divine Other as "meditation". But I do think that Orion is nevertheless correct. Because there is also a form of repetitive prayer, in which an evocative phrase is repeated to quiet and focus the mind on the Divine. In the use of mantra as a meditation technique, it is of no practical consequence whether the japa (repetition) employ "Thy will be done" or "Namah Shivaya".

K.


I'm not disagreeing with his statement that prayer can be a form of meditation. I'm saying that isn't the form of meditation he's talking about later on, if it was I could substitution the word prayer for the word meditation in his post and it would still make sense:

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Tai Chi uses PRAYER techniques. Yoga was developed for exercises to stretch and exercise muscles so that you can PRAY longer.


Hopefully that makes the equivocation fallacy more obvious.



Rule -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 10:53:14 PM)

Free will requires that the Divine does not voluntarily intervene in the events occurring in the universe. It only intervenes in compliance with spiritual requests - if at all possible.

As usual in these threads, people confuse the benevolent incarnate god of the Jews with the non-corporeal Divine.



mcbride -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 11:04:28 PM)

Tell ya what, GotSteel.

I've posted that answer three times now. I'll repost them, just for you, AND add to it, after you answer just one of the questions that a couple of people have asked you, which is " why would you think earthquakes shouldn't happen if an "omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god existed"? "The benevolent part"...doesn't answer the question, does it?



GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 11:11:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

There is no reason to believe that a benevolent God would be concerned to prevent everyone from dying. Every theistic religion that I know of teaches that there is no such thing as death, that only the body dies, that our essense (spirit, soul, various terms) does not.



That's a good point, the issue with it is that we weren't talking about peacefully drifting off to heaven in ones sleep, we were talking about earthquakes. We were talking about people being violently crushed to death in horrible agony.  Causing or not lifting a finger to prevent such suffering doesn't fit any definition of benevolent of which I'm aware.



GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 11:14:59 PM)

mcbride, there you go. I expanded on my answer in the last post.



Rule -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 11:15:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Causing or not lifting a finger to prevent such suffering doesn't fit any definition of benevolent of which I'm aware.

So?



GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 11:34:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
There is an explanation, one possible one.


NeedToUseYou, you've basically put forth the explanation that one will be violently murdered by god if they believe in him. It's not a position that I've heard a theist take and not an act that I would consider benevolent. If it was your position I would have asked you about your definition of benevolent. But it isn't your position, so I didn't see the point of having a straw man of the theist position thread.



mcbride -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 11:56:01 PM)

 

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
We have free will in this world. Shit happens, or free will wouldn't matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
Lisbon having an earthquake, as you already know, is part of “shit happens”.  Someone can go into a church, rob a liquor store, or hang off a rock, and either way, there may be unintended consequences.  That’s part, as I said, and others said, of a world where free will rules.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
One is that they have God-given free will, and so, necessarily, the world has consequences, and sometimes bad things will happen, so you cannot expect to be snatched away a second before the altar comes down, or before the earthquake happens.


What would be the point of free will if the world was all sweetness and light? Who'd care if you went dancing on the freeway if God plucked you out of the semi's path every time? And why would earthquakes or falling altars preclude that benevolent God, having given people life in the first place, from giving them a much greater reward in the end? Wouldn't asking one of us to judge that benevolence, from our very limited perspective, be like asking an ant where the Number Five bus stops?



HatesParisHilton -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/30/2009 12:05:13 AM)

"What would be the point of free will if the world was all sweetness and light? "

ask a Calvinist.  They've been spruiking such pre-determinst crap since the Pre-Boston-Tea Party-Colonists disappeared without a trace and for no reason from the Roanoke colony.

"Puritan" bullshit didn't help THEM much, and they loved muskets and capital punishment as much as Dubba Dubba on two double whiskies and three lines of coke after a Dallas Cowboys Superbowl win.



GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/30/2009 12:09:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
What would constitute prayer without personal belief?

I've met a number of Catholics who do just that. People who appease family members by going through the motions but don't actually believe.
 
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
And do you really think anyone would seriously pray to God to move a freaking mountain for them, or are you just being sarcastic?

I used that wording because of a specific claim that Jesus makes: He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." Matthew 17:20



GYPSYMAMBO -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/30/2009 12:43:14 AM)



quote:

Prayer can be a form of meditation. Faith is linked to prayer. Tai Chi uses meditation techniques. Yoga was developed for exercises to stretch and exercise muscles so that you can meditate longer.




Prayer is ASKING...
it is a petition,,asking for guidance, grace...intercession,,etc
It can be an incantation,,dance,,hymn..spell..for gratitude..healing..advice..plea..change..growth

MEDITATION..mediata/o to measure..is LISTENING
a discipline to get beyond the thinking mind..to empty mind..
to a place of self inquiry and listening to a higher power whihc may be a god/ess or love or inner self..etc etc etc

As for the stone on the man in OP post..shit happens..
My dad died of a heart attack ..god did nto "take him" or the "good die young" etc..
BAD THINGS seem to happen to good and "bad" ppll becuz it is US judging the good and bad so only an illusion of that

any Higher power I have come to know does not intervene but can offer guidance on all the bumps and joys and shit happening valleys I go thru..
becuz
"that which does not kill us
makes us really fukkin pissed off and may guide us to right action"
by: my granny aged 100

GM



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