RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/25/2009 11:34:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00


It is the Lord's word, so no explanation is needed to a believer.  It's taken as is because they have faith.  It doesn't matter that it happened.  It happened because it was God's will.



And of course, we mere mortals can never understand God's mysterious ways. 

I guess that's why so many televangelists get rich duping grannies out of their bingo money.



rulemylife -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/25/2009 11:42:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I agree, it all comes down to Free Will.. regardless of what happens... it was our decision, in most cases, to be where we end up.....


So, then what you are saying is if there is a God he doesn't take much interest in what happens here and the practices of religion and prayer are just exercises in futility.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/26/2009 6:19:16 AM)

Prayer should be similar to meditation. It should prepare our minds and hearts to deal with what we are praying about. Faith itself can do some amazing things internally for a person, whether it be faith in a religion, ideal, or person. So prayers are not so much for a divine being, but a way for us to be thankful for the things we have, and to ask for internal things to allow us to proceed in the future.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I agree, it all comes down to Free Will.. regardless of what happens... it was our decision, in most cases, to be where we end up.....


So, then what you are saying is if there is a God he doesn't take much interest in what happens here and the practices of religion and prayer are just exercises in futility.




MarsBonfire -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/26/2009 7:47:46 AM)

OMG!  Orion said something I can agree with!  (Looks to the sky for signs of impending end of the world...)



tazzygirl -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/26/2009 7:51:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I agree, it all comes down to Free Will.. regardless of what happens... it was our decision, in most cases, to be where we end up.....


So, then what you are saying is if there is a God he doesn't take much interest in what happens here and the practices of religion and prayer are just exercises in futility.



When people talk about prayer , i get the image of "Bruce Almighty" and him listening to all the prayers, unable to make sense of any of them.

then i sit back and remember a line from a song...

"some of god's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers"

Fellas... there is more to religion than prayer and waiting for god to make it come true.



Rule -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/26/2009 7:58:56 AM)

Perhaps he wanted to die. Perhaps he wanted to save another life. There is not sufficient information to come to an informed conclusion.

I suspect that the Divine obliged him.

From the equally valid atheistic point of view: it was merely coincidence.



GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/28/2009 4:00:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Faith itself can do some amazing things internally for a person


Care to elaborate?



NeedToUseYou -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/28/2009 4:24:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I'm wondering how people who believe that theirs a benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient deity at work in the world around us explain this.

"Gunther Link, a devout Catholic, prayed to be saved after he was trapped in a lift – but was killed when he went to church to give thanks and the stone altar fell on him." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/austria/6166852/Man-killed-in-church-after-stone-altar-falls-on-him.html



Simple, Gunther Link, while perceived as a devout Catholic, truly never really believed, though went through the motions because he enjoyed the company, and he always had participated in church. However, upon being faced with being trapped in the lift, and being saved only by the grace of god in his mind, he truly for the first time really believed in the one true God. He went to the church and for the first time worshipped with the whole of his being, God seeing that this was the best this man will ever be, took him in his most spiritual perfect state.

There is an explanation, one possible one.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/28/2009 5:27:22 PM)

Sure. Prayer, like meditation, can have a calming effect on the mind. It is a scientific fact that when you get angry, your IQ actually goes down, so it is no suprise that when you are more calm, you can often see things in your life more clearly and make better decisions. This is often true when there is a large decision that you must make. Meditating, or prayer can calm you and assist you in having resolve to do difficult things. There are also some studies that suggest that prayer may in fact assist in the healing of the body, but those same studies also show almost identical numbers for those that meditate instead.

Also, when people are faced with wanting to make personality changes about themselves, meditation or prayer can both help, when used in conjunction with cognitive behavioral therapy. I would have to check but I believe there was a Danish study that showed an average of about 5 percent positive bonus to the success rate for those that used prayer or meditation with rehabilitation of certain negative personality traits.

One does not need to be religious to benefit from many of the calming/focus techniques, as is also proven by the use of Tai Chi, Yoga and meditation by those that are secular.


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Faith itself can do some amazing things internally for a person


Care to elaborate?




GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/28/2009 8:00:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Sure. Prayer, like meditation, can have a calming effect on the mind. It is a scientific fact that when you get angry, your IQ actually goes down, so it is no suprise that when you are more calm, you can often see things in your life more clearly and make better decisions. This is often true when there is a large decision that you must make. Meditating, or prayer can calm you and assist you in having resolve to do difficult things. There are also some studies that suggest that prayer may in fact assist in the healing of the body, but those same studies also show almost identical numbers for those that meditate instead.

I can't say I'm comfortable with how you're using faith, prayer and meditation interchangeably. Also could you put up links to those studies, I'm not aware of them and would be interested to read them since the largest such study I'm aware of found that prayer was most definitely not helpful:  http://www.harvardscience.harvard.edu/medicine-health/articles/prayers-dont-help-heart-surgery-patients


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Also, when people are faced with wanting to make personality changes about themselves, meditation or prayer can both help, when used in conjunction with cognitive behavioral therapy. I would have to check but I believe there was a Danish study that showed an average of about 5 percent positive bonus to the success rate for those that used prayer or meditation with rehabilitation of certain negative personality traits.

Could you post a link for this study as well?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
One does not need to be religious to benefit from many of the calming/focus techniques, as is also proven by the use of Tai Chi, Yoga and meditation by those that are secular.

I wasn't aware that Tai Chi, Yoga or meditation normally involved faith.






GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/28/2009 8:04:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

There is an explanation, one possible one.



Do you actually believe that?



tazzygirl -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/28/2009 8:09:54 PM)

Are you saying he is wrong?



NeedToUseYou -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/28/2009 8:30:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

There is an explanation, one possible one.



Do you actually believe that?



No, I'm agnostic, it's a way of reconciling the perceived contradiction expressed in the OP, though. Isn't that what the thread is about, the perception of contradiction in Gods actions in this case.



tazzygirl -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/28/2009 8:37:12 PM)

Yet when people give you a possible solution, you again demand more and more. I personally find that to be antagonistic.

Here are a few more solutions.

His time was up. The fates decided to sut the cord. Satan pushed the alter. God thought he needed a 4th for his bridge game, then thought he had another player, saved the man in the lift, to later decide he needed him afterwards.

OR... just possibly... the man, byt his own free will, decided to go pray after he was saved. of his own free will, he grabbed the pillar, an unstable alter fell, crushing him to death. its called life... it sucks... would he have died had he not gone to the church to pray? who knows? he could have been hit by a car walking across the street. someone else could have been crushed.

it all goes back to the same thing. those who wait on god to take care of them are in for a rude awakening. god helps those who help themselves.



GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/28/2009 10:32:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
I notice that sometimes around here, ad hominem is Latin for “he answered my question and now what do I do but obfuscate?” 

No, ad hominem is usually Latin for you're insulting me personally so that people won't notice you don't have an answer to my question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
Lisbon having an earthquake, as you already know, is part of “shit happens”.  Someone can go into a church, rob a liquor store, or hang off a rock, and either way, there may be unintended consequences.  That’s part, as I said, and others said, of a world where free will rules.

If an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god actually existed why would earthquakes happen?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
You think an omnipotent and omniscient diety is restricted by Epicurus' logical problem of evil?  Seriously?  And do we really have to get into repeating the obvious and long-standing answers about God’s intentions for evil?

Apparently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
You asked a theological question, in good faith, I’m sure, and you got the (really obvious) theological answer,

As far as I can tell you haven't given an answer for why god would save someone in order to immediately kill them. Unless your answer is something along the lines of god doesn't effect reality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
You haven’t said why you think reality seems to contradict Gunther’s faith, but I’m not interesting in keeping your thread alive for you just so we can hear ourselves talk.

I was commenting on the reality of prayer not working: http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html



Kirata -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/28/2009 10:47:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

If an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god actually existed why would earthquakes happen?

I asked you this before, here. In the present context, why would you think earthquakes shouldn't happen if an "omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god actually existed"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I was commenting on the reality of prayer not working: http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

That study says nothing whatsoever about "prayer not working" in the general sense that your statement implies. It is a study of third-party prayer. The power of personal belief is scientifically irrefutable (think "placebo effect").

K.



GotSteel -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/28/2009 11:40:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I asked you this before, here. In the present context,

You did and rulemylife answered you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
 why would you think earthquakes shouldn't happen if an "omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god actually existed"?

The benevolent part.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I was commenting on the reality of prayer not working: http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
That study says nothing whatsoever about "prayer not working" in the general sense that your statement implies.
It is a study of third-party prayer. The power of personal belief is scientifically irrefutable (think "placebo effect").

Personal belief and prayer aren't interchangeable terms. Furthermore being convinced that a sugar pill has slightly diminished your pain is quite a bit different from believing that an omnipotent being will move mountains for you.

Irrefutable is a pretty strong term for the placebo effect: "We found little evidence in general that placebos had powerful clinical effects. Although placebos had no significant effects on objective or binary outcomes, they had possible small benefits in studies with continuous subjective outcomes and for the treatment of pain. Outside the setting of clinical trials, there is no justification for the use of placebos." New England Journal of Medicine.




Kirata -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 12:07:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The benevolent part.

Nail that down for me. I want to be sure I understand you. What precisely would be benevolent about it? Are you referring to the loss of life?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Personal belief and prayer aren't interchangeable terms. Furthermore being convinced that a sugar pill has slightly diminished your pain is quite a bit different from believing that an omnipotent being will move mountains for you.

They may not be "interchangeable" but they're certainly inseparable. What would constitute prayer without personal belief? And do you really think anyone would seriously pray to God to move a freaking mountain for them, or are you just being sarcastic?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Irrefutable is a pretty strong term for the placebo effect: "We found little evidence in general that placebos had powerful clinical effects. Although placebos had no significant effects on objective or binary outcomes, they had possible small benefits in studies with continuous subjective outcomes and for the treatment of pain. Outside the setting of clinical trials, there is no justification for the use of placebos." New England Journal of Medicine.

A single old study from 2001 does not a conclusion prove. Here are some more current links:

Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind
Learning More About the Placebo Effect
Placebo effect is getting stronger
Note: the last above relates excerpts from the (much) longer article below
Placebos Are Getting More Effective. Drugmakers Are Desperate to Know Why

K.




edited: To remove an out-dated link (references dated 1993-2001) -- all others should be current (2009) and are by no means exhaustive.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 4:49:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Could you post a link for this study as well?


Sorry it was a long time ago, and don't have the time to do the research again. Spent damn near a decade studying theology, and it was part of that study. If it is important to you, I am sure you will research it.


quote:


I wasn't aware that Tai Chi, Yoga or meditation normally involved faith.



Prayer can be a form of meditation. Faith is linked to prayer. Tai Chi uses meditation techniques. Yoga was developed for exercises to stretch and exercise muscles so that you can meditate longer.

See how it all connects now?



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him (9/29/2009 4:52:18 AM)

This small search took a couple of minutes. I am sure anyone interested can do the legwork themselves:

" Dr Newberg's earlier studies have involved the brain activity of Franciscan nuns during a type of prayer known as "centering". As the prayer has a verbal element other parts of the brain are used but Dr Newberg also found that they, "activated the attention area of the brain, and diminished activity in the orientation area." This is not the first time that scientists have investigated spirituality. In 1998, the healing benefits of prayer were alluded to when a group of scientists in the US studied how patients with heart conditions experienced fewer complications following periods of "intercessory prayer". "

http://www.crystalinks.com/medbrain.html



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