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RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 12:56:45 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Hello GotSteel.
It depends on the christian.  Take Jehovah Witness'.  In which case, it isn't god but the devil who is to blame for the earthquakes because we are on the devils world, not his due to the fall of man.
Not something I would believe but at least one christian POV.

I would ask you why you find earthquakes, volcanos etc as non benevolent?  You are concentrating on the negative pretty much constantly.
Why are earthquakes et al. not beautiful?  or exciting?  Or why not see the other outcomes other than death?  What about the beautiful landscapes formed?  Islands created and the world evolving.  Preservation of life?  Why do you not consider this?

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 5:18:05 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		In some instances prayer and meditation can be substitute words.

" Dr Newberg's earlier studies have involved the brain activity of Franciscan nuns during a type of prayer known as "centering". As the prayer has a verbal element other parts of the brain are used but Dr Newberg also found that they, "activated the attention area of the brain, and diminished activity in the orientation area." This is not the first time that scientists have investigated spirituality. In 1998, the healing benefits of prayer were alluded to when a group of scientists in the US studied how patients with heart conditions experienced fewer complications following periods of "intercessory prayer". "

Some of the prayers taken from the Old Testament can and are used as a mantra, making the praying a form of meditation. Just like meditation, just saying the words does nothing. Relaxing, using breathing, and mantras assist in reaching a meditative state. Remember that prayers can be used as a mantra.

" Mindfulness meditation and related techniques are intended to train attention for the sake of provoking insight. Think of it as the opposite of attention deficit disorder. A wider, more flexible attention span makes it easier to be aware of a situation, easier to be objective in emotionally or morally difficult situations, and easier to achieve a state of responsive, creative awareness or "flow". "

The awareness that is created often leads to better introspection, as well as other over all health benefits that comes with relaxation and calmness. Have you ever seen a martial arts demonstration, where the person does a certain type of repetative motion and breathing before doing something extreme? I know a Christian that uses a prayer to assist in focusing his mind.

Try reading that link more thoroughly, it has some very interesting things in it. Most of it is similar to what I discovered during my studies. As far as offering links to support my claims, sorry but no more time for this, ignore my claims if you wish or do the rest of the leg work. Buddhist pray and there have been many studies done on their brain activity during prayer.

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RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 3:36:39 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
We have free will in this world. Shit happens, or free will wouldn't matter.

That doesn't answer to my question. If earthquakes didn't happen free will would still matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
Lisbon having an earthquake, as you already know, is part of “shit happens”. Someone can go into a church, rob a liquor store, or hang off a rock, and either way, there may be unintended consequences. That’s part, as I said, and others said, of a world where free will rules.

That doesn't answer my question, your talking about acts of man, I asked about acts of god.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
One is that they have God-given free will, and so, necessarily, the world has consequences, and sometimes bad things will happen, so you cannot expect to be snatched away a second before the altar comes down, or before the earthquake happens.

That doesn't answer my question. Why would god make the earthquake happen, your still not addressing that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
What would be the point of free will if the world was all sweetness and light? Who'd care if you went dancing on the freeway if God plucked you out of the semi's path every time?

Your still talking about acts of man, I asked you about acts of god.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
And why would earthquakes or falling altars preclude that benevolent God, having given people life in the first place, from giving them a much greater reward in the end?

Murdering people horribly precludes the benevolent part.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
Wouldn't asking one of us to judge that benevolence, from our very limited perspective, be like asking an ant where the Number Five bus stops?


That's a bad analogy because ants have no concept of what bus stops are, we do have a concept of benevolence. Arguing that we can't apply that concept to god is a special pleading fallacy.

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 4:23:03 PM   
Louve00


Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		I think, for an atheist, you are giving too much credit to God.  Why are you trying to persue an explanation of it being God's will to have earthquakes and natural disasters, if those can be scientifically explained.  Earthquakes happen when the plates of the earth (there may be a more correct term than plates) move and shift against each other.  Hurricanes happen with the phenomenon of a blast of heat moving over a humid piece of (mountainous usually) land, that creates disturbances and low pressure conditions right for forming the birth of a hurricane.  All these things can be explained.  That you keep insisting they are acts of God tells me you just may believe more in God than you say you do.  Or....you're trying to get us to not believe, maybe?  But I don't see anyone here that definitively convicted themselves to that, either.

What are you searching for? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, since no answer has seemed to satisfy you.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 9/30/2009 4:25:29 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 4:27:24 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hello GotSteel.
It depends on the christian.  Take Jehovah Witness'.  In which case, it isn't god but the devil who is to blame for the earthquakes because we are on the devils world, not his due to the fall of man.

Wouldn't that still mean that god either lacks omnipotence or benevolence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I would ask you why you find earthquakes, volcanos etc as non benevolent?  You are concentrating on the negative pretty much constantly.
Why are earthquakes et al. not beautiful?  or exciting?  Or why not see the other outcomes other than death?  What about the beautiful landscapes formed?  Islands created and the world evolving.  Preservation of life?  Why do you not consider this?

Oh look that wave is killing hundreds of thousands of people, isn't it pretty

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RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 4:36:19 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Why would god make the earthquake happen,

To shake things up. Duh.

To comply with the desire of any or a multitude of creatures. Ever hear of chaos theory? Of the beat of a butterfly's wing and the hurricane resulting five thousand miles distant and eight days later? If that is the effect of one wing beat of a butterfly, then guess what the effects of an earthquake are.

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 4:42:40 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Wouldn't that still mean that god either lacks omnipotence or benevolence.

Both omnipotence and benevolence are concepts that have their limits.

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 5:25:17 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Why are you assuming an earthquake is an act of god?

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 5:44:34 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Both omnipotence and benevolence are concepts that have their limits.

Indeed, I know mine sure do.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 5:53:43 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Why are you assuming an earthquake is an act of god?

Why does he not know that an act of man or animal can be an intervention by the Divine?

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 6:34:41 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		My point is simple... why would a god who created nature intervene in the workings of that nature on behalf of anyone?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 9:12:45 PM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline 		By the way, the stone altar was pushed over by an Irish Pagan with a very long memory.

it had nothing to do with any Christian or Abrahim based god, it was revenge for Lugh Lamfada and Nuada Airgetlam, and that's why the Gaeloch is still drinking toasts and screaming "SLainte" at all of you for (in good Christian fashion) assuming that any of it had anything to do with YOUR place in the universe whatsoever.

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 10:14:22 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HatesParisHilton
it had nothing to do with any Christian or Abrahim based god, it was revenge for Lugh Lamfada and Nuada Airgetlam, and that's why the Gaeloch is still drinking toasts and screaming "SLainte" at all of you for (in good Christian fashion) assuming that any of it had anything to do with YOUR place in the universe whatsoever.

Irish mythology, like Semitic mythology, is very impenetrable.

Nuada Airgetlam? Who might he be? *climbing on my chair to retrieve my MacKillopp*
Ah so. He temporarily owned the Hill of Allen; I know that height...
I knew the story, and had some suspicions, but only now I know what and who it most likely is about.

I am omniscient!

(Now if only I knew at what page I was in the paperback that I am reading...)



< Message edited by Rule -- 9/30/2009 10:17:14 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 9/30/2009 10:41:09 PM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline 		"MacKillopp"?

More tripemeat to be SLASHED AND MASHED into nasty haggis!

no, no, not a good source, despite the "Celtic" name.

Squire is a better resource.

besides, it's all about Drumcain...  (that's a placename, btw, and a seat of kingship, going back to at least the Bronze Age...)

as I said, lonnnnnnng memories.

But if a bunch of  people worshipping a misrepresented ritz cracker with a sip of Thunderbird wanna believe the stone had anything to do with THEIR God, hey, Irish paganism DEMANDS you laugh at what ends up being FUNNY.

That's why Padraig (the sheister con artist pommie pansy-boy) had to ERADICATE the religion, and also why he failed over 1000 years onward.

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I am (now) "Hiltie", hear me ROARRRRR! And have a cuffy cake, they're nice.

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 10/1/2009 12:11:43 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hello GotSteel.
It depends on the christian.  Take Jehovah Witness'.  In which case, it isn't god but the devil who is to blame for the earthquakes because we are on the devils world, not his due to the fall of man.

Wouldn't that still mean that god either lacks omnipotence or benevolence.


Why?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I would ask you why you find earthquakes, volcanos etc as non benevolent?  You are concentrating on the negative pretty much constantly.
Why are earthquakes et al. not beautiful?  or exciting?  Or why not see the other outcomes other than death?  What about the beautiful landscapes formed?  Islands created and the world evolving.  Preservation of life?  Why do you not consider this?

Oh look that wave is killing hundreds of thousands of people, isn't it pretty


According to some on another thread occuring over on off topic - apparently it is.

Why are you so set on the 'natural' as 'acts of god'?  Do you think that as a human you cannot 'control' it?  What is so different about acts of man?  Or animals?  Because you believe can control them?  That would conclude that you are either reacting in fear and unknowing - which means you are dealing with emotions rather than anything else or incapable of assessing your own abilities.

the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 10/1/2009 4:26:44 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Sure. Prayer, like meditation, can have a calming effect on the mind. It is a scientific fact that when you get angry, your IQ actually goes down, so it is no suprise that when you are more calm, you can often see things in your life more clearly and make better decisions. This is often true when there is a large decision that you must make. Meditating, or prayer can calm you and assist you in having resolve to do difficult things. There are also some studies that suggest that prayer may in fact assist in the healing of the body, but those same studies also show almost identical numbers for those that meditate instead.

I can't say I'm comfortable with how you're using faith, prayer and meditation interchangeably. Also could you put up links to those studies, I'm not aware of them and would be interested to read them since the largest such study I'm aware of found that prayer was most definitely not helpful:  http://www.harvardscience.harvard.edu/medicine-health/articles/prayers-dont-help-heart-surgery-patients



Well according to the article you linked. "Researchers have been trying to prove this and even to measure the effect. So far, two studies found that third-party prayers bestow benefits, but two others concluded that there are no benefits. Now, the largest study to date, covering 1,800 people who underwent coronary bypass surgery at six different hospitals, supported the latter research." says one study supported this idea." - Now if you want to read that to say that the study covering a whopping 1800 people out of how many millions, proves that prayer does not work, go right ahead. I know how much some of the folks at cm love to disprove anything about prayer or god. At least the writers of the article admitted it really didn't prove anything.

"Those who conducted the study are quick to say that its results do not challenge the existence of God. Also, it did not try to address such religious questions as the efficacy of one form of prayer over others, whether God answers intercessory prayers, or whether prayers from one religious group work better than prayers from another, according to the Rev. Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn."

< Message edited by thishereboi -- 10/1/2009 4:27:34 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 10/1/2009 6:14:31 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		I ought to read up on Irish mythology. I have just now read some about Tara hill; I cannot yet make sense of it, though I have some suspicions.

You appear to refer to Jesus when you say "a misrepresented ritz cracker with a sip of Thunderbird"? I do not understand the references. Would you elucidate on them, please?

(in reply to HatesParisHilton)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 10/1/2009 6:44:30 AM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline 		"I ought to read up on Irish mythology"
 
Just make sure you get decent sources, neither pro-Christion ones seeking to Romanize it or anglicize it.  Also avoid any crap written by pachuli soaked crystal rubbers cloaking their illconceived New Age fantasies in actual Creeds that they've only heard of through fantasy novels, RPG's and wikipedia then claim creedence.

the cracker and thunderbird ref was not to Jesu himslef, but the heaping of  Import and of metaphysical weight upon a piece of unleavened bread and some cheap vino, when the real power of Jesu was his viewpoint and ability to communicate it in ways that supercede the limitations of grammar, diction, culture and millenia. 

I think once you make clean skin from a leper's boils, you don't need to be validated by some guy in a black dress mumbling over a stale ritz and making people line up to have him place it in their gobs.

I say this as an ex-Catholic.

clarified?


I was facetiously

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I am (now) "Hiltie", hear me ROARRRRR! And have a cuffy cake, they're nice.

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 10/1/2009 7:15:57 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HatesParisHilton
Just make sure you get decent sources, neither pro-Christion ones seeking to Romanize it or anglicize it.

Perhaps the Divine will present me with a Squire.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HatesParisHilton
the cracker and thunderbird ref was not to Jesu himself, but the heaping of  Import and of metaphysical weight upon a piece of unleavened bread and some cheap vino
clarified?

Almost. Is Thunderbird the name of a cheap wine?

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Man killed in church after stone altar falls on him - 10/1/2009 7:34:17 AM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline 		Yup, but not that easy to find anymore.  It was common in the 70's; Richard Pryor had one or two jokes about Thunderbird.

_____________________________

I am (now) "Hiltie", hear me ROARRRRR! And have a cuffy cake, they're nice.

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Profile   Post #: 120
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