Schools promoting hatred? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 6:25:07 AM)

Found this on Fark, under a title i dont think needs to be addressed here. However, the idea that this is being shown to our children... even at 17.. is extremely disturbing. To realize that something she was shown at 17 in our public schools has caused her to seek counseling .. thats sad... thats scary... and i think we have alot to be worried about when it comes to our schools.


http://news.aol.com/article/dad-bill-cruey-says-his-daughter-is/684561?icid=main|aim|dl1|link4|http://news.aol.com/article/dad-bill-cruey-says-his-daughter-is/684561



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 6:35:23 AM)

So are we going to stop thirteen year olds seeing the cleanup operation footage shot after the holocaust? This isn't particularly nice to watch but makes it real in terms of what humans are capable of doing to one another and the lessons that should be learnt from it.

Where exactly do you draw the line as to what images can be tolerated by a human mind?

I can't speak as to the alleged anti Muslim political tilt of this film having not seen it myself.

quote:


Pulaski County Superintendent Tim Eaton said Tuesday that the teacher's intent was to commemorate the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks and discuss the dangers of extremism — "not only of Muslims but other viewpoints, too."


Also from the above quote it seems the teacher was intending to highlight the film as an obvious negative effect of extremism i.e. not support the films content.




Marc2b -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 6:48:09 AM)

"Class, stand up please, it's time for the two minute hate."



tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 6:51:41 AM)

And you promote that as acceptable for a 13 year old to watch? I never allowed mine to watch horror flicks. I would hardly have allowed him to watch a woman beheaded. I watched the film Fitna on youtube.... extremely disturbing. but i dont believe its how all islamics think. perhaps i am naive in that aspect.

And the school came out and agreed that her choice of material was inappropriate... which is what i was referring too. her intentions may have been correct... the execution leaves something to be desired.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 6:57:49 AM)

It obviously was acceptable because as a thirteen year old that was my first introduction to it and the first real event in my life that made me think about such despicable human behaviour.

Innocence comes at the cost of ignorance is my sentiment.



Banzai550 -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:00:50 AM)

real life always trumps hollywood fluff. obviously the course was about leadership, and if it takes a slap to the face to expose the gritty, real underbelly of life to 17 yr olds, not 13(don't know where 13 came from) then so be it. if more people knew of the attrocities and horrors perpetrated in the world, maybe there would be better understanding. it's naive to think that if we close our eyes and ears, that everything will turn out roses. at 17, the students are almost into their college and university years where they will be expected to think on their own. come up with original thoughts. how can they do that if they aren't equiped with the right tools? bravo for the teacher for making people face the true facts of life...and death.



Eigenaar -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:02:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

...the idea that this is being shown to our children... even at 17.. is extremely disturbing.


"True nobility lies not in being superior to another man, but in being superior to ones previous self."



tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:04:45 AM)

And its my belief that children are being forced to become adults far sooner than they should be. Schools have no right to show such material to children without parental consent. It tossed one child into counseling... one too many. The UK has banned the director. Showing acts of murder, not just pictures of the aftermath, as in the holocost... but actual acts, can be detremental.

In school, we watched films about the holocaust as well. Watch this one. you may gain a better perspective. Maybe not.



Kirata -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:05:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Banzai550

it's naive to think that if we close our eyes and ears, that everything will turn out roses. at 17, the students are almost into their college and university years where they will be expected to think on their own.

Nobody is saying that. But it's naive to think that 17 year olds are prepared to deal with that kind of shit. Hell, nobody is. And to imagine that it does them (or anybody) any good is bizarre.

K.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:10:31 AM)

You asked a question relating to what images should be shown in secondary school education to demonstrate a point, my view is anything as long as it is in the right context. I’m not going to get into a debate as to if watching someone being beheaded is more tame than bodies being bulldozed into a mass grave.

The director is most likely banned in the UK for the message in the film not the images.



Eigenaar -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:11:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The UK has banned the director.
The UK banned Geert Wilders because of Muslim threats, which is outrageous. They did not ban him because he directed a film.



tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:13:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

You asked a question relating to what images should be shown in secondary school education to demonstrate a point, my view is anything as long as it is in the right context. I’m not going to get into a debate as to if watching someone being beheaded is more tame than bodies being bulldozed into a mass grave.

The director is most likely banned in the UK for the message in the film not the images.



quote:

I can't speak as to the alleged anti Muslim political tilt of this film having not seen it myself.


Maybe you should. I dont know how old you are, or if you have kids in school yet...



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:14:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

It obviously was acceptable because as a thirteen year old that was my first introduction to it and the first real event in my life that made me think about such despicable human behaviour.

Innocence comes at the cost of ignorance is my sentiment.




I don't know if it is such a good thing. I rember, at about the age of 13, my Hebrew school teachers sat us down and had us watch films taken of the death camps of nazi Germany. The images were disturbingly vile. There are two results that came of this in my case. First, I will never forget what the holocost was and what it did. That is a good thing. But I also, to this day, must admit that I have a problem liking German's very much. I know in my head that what happened was over half a century agao. I know that the majority of Germans weren't even born back then. Still, while I can put aside my predjudice for individuals, as a group, Germans give me the creeps. I know that of all the countries in Europe, Germany is the one country I would have no desire to so much as set foot into. (I do not in any way condone this predjudice in myself but I do admit that it exists.)

Showing shocking images to kids is not as cut and dried an issue as one might think. We must carefully walk the line between giving a true picture of the facts and creating life long animousity to any one group.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:19:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Maybe you should. I dont know how old you are, or if you have kids in school yet...

Perhaps I should but I already know there are people with mental health issues in the world going around cutting people’s heads off they don't like. So I can't learn the reality of that when it already exists in my mind as fact. Overtime the harsh reality of such things have traditionally been lost, hence why people show films to demonstrate the Titanic sinking to the bottom of the Atlantic isn't actually a love story in black and white or colour but real human suffering.



RacerJim -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:27:22 AM)

The thought that a film about current events in the real world shown to high school students, especially soon to enter the real world 17 year-olds, would cause them to seek counseling is extremely disturbing   What's truely scary, and a sad reflection on our K-12 educational system, is that our soon to enter real life children would be so fragile.  Better we educate our children in all things Politically Correct than all things evil, eh libs?




tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:34:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Maybe you should. I dont know how old you are, or if you have kids in school yet...

Perhaps I should but I already know there are people with mental health issues in the world going around cutting people’s heads off they don't like. So I can't learn the reality of that when it already exists in my mind as fact. Overtime the harsh reality of such things have traditionally been lost, hence why people show films to demonstrate the Titanic sinking to the bottom of the Atlantic isn't actually a love story in black and white or colour but real human suffering.


And we call those people criminals... criminally insane... and no news agency would place those photos on TV. But you are advocating showing them in an educational setting to children without the consent or knowledge of their parents.

And some wonder why so many homeschool these days.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 7:46:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
But I also, to this day, must admit that I have a problem liking German's very much. I know in my head that what happened was over half a century agao. I know that the majority of Germans weren't even born back then. Still, while I can put aside my predjudice for individuals, as a group, Germans give me the creeps. I know that of all the countries in Europe, Germany is the one country I would have no desire to so much as set foot into. (I do not in any way condone this predjudice in myself but I do admit that it exists.)

Showing shocking images to kids is not as cut and dried an issue as one might think. We must carefully walk the line between giving a true picture of the facts and creating life long animousity to any one group.

It didn't affect me in that way I'd say what I got from it was the fact humans will do horrific acts of evil under the guise of just following orders. In fact 'just following orders' is the biggest cause of human beings doing evil. Probably if you were a German citizen you would witness the Jews being rounded up but you'd be incapable of believing what the leadership was doing with them.

If a normal person in the street thinks they are not capable of blindly following orders and doing x amount of evil in its name they should pay heed to Stanley Milgram’s Obedience to Authority study which was conducted to answer this question.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 8:00:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And we call those people criminals... criminally insane... and no news agency would place those photos on TV. But you are advocating showing them in an educational setting to children without the consent or knowledge of their parents.

Firstly I didn't say anything anywhere about the consent of the parents so as you often like to say to me 'please don't put words into my mouth'.

Secondly the BBC used to be prevented from letting us hear Gerry Adams' real voice and instead used an actor’s voice to represent him. Although a very comical result ensued nobody could ever say censorship of the news media is a good thing. You'll find such images on the internet if you go looking, which some curious types often do. What should we do ban such images on the internet too and ensure no one can see something shocking?
quote:


And some wonder why so many homeschool these days.

The only real downside to homeschooling is probably in being able to teach social skills i.e. being isolated from all the people going through the same experience of growing up. In terms of one on one teaching nobody can dispute the obvious benefits of that and if the parent wants to exclude certain subjects (Darwin etc.) then they can create this perfect ignorant child in their own image.[8|]



tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 8:33:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And we call those people criminals... criminally insane... and no news agency would place those photos on TV. But you are advocating showing them in an educational setting to children without the consent or knowledge of their parents.

Firstly I didn't say anything anywhere about the consent of the parents so as you often like to say to me 'please don't put words into my mouth'.

Secondly the BBC used to be prevented from letting us hear Gerry Adams' real voice and instead used an actor’s voice to represent him. Although a very comical result ensued nobody could ever say censorship of the news media is a good thing. You'll find such images on the internet if you go looking, which some curious types often do. What should we do ban such images on the internet too and ensure no one can see something shocking?
quote:


And some wonder why so many homeschool these days.

The only real downside to homeschooling is probably in being able to teach social skills i.e. being isolated from all the people going through the same experience of growing up. In terms of one on one teaching nobody can dispute the obvious benefits of that and if the parent wants to exclude certain subjects (Darwin etc.) then they can create this perfect ignorant child in their own image.[8|]


quote:

The only real downside to homeschooling is probably in being able to teach social skills i.e. being isolated from all the people going through the same experience of growing up. In terms of one on one teaching nobody can dispute the obvious benefits of that and if the parent wants to exclude certain subjects (Darwin etc.) then they can create this perfect ignorant child in their own image.


Homeschooling has no downside. My son was involved in sports, except football... he didnt like being tackled.. he adored soccer, baseball and basketball.. and has several trophies... unlike the ones given out now just for participating. He was involved in karate, band, boy scouts, 4h, summer camps, horse back riding... i dont feel.. nor does he.. that he was denied anything he would have had in school.. and had the freedom to explore his world in ways schools never could have offered as we often had field trips and explorations outside the classroom, taking his studies with him.

explain to me how that prevented his social abilities? how did that stunt his "growing up"? And, amazingly enough, we used the school curriculumn to accomplish all this. His studies followed the state mandated one.

What i may allow my child to view at home is my decision. What others seem appropriate for my child to see is also my business.

you may not see images of beheadings, violence against children and women, hangings and such to be mentally disturbing... i happen to disagree. and it seems the school agrees with me.

edited to add

and i was the one who said there was no consent obtained. i would definitely not wish to put anything into your mouth [;)]



kdsub -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 8:55:10 AM)

This is a tough one tazzygirl…when I read your original post I agreed with you 100 percent...but then when I read SL4's post I was not so sure. I thought about it for a while and decided it is important that or children are made aware of the dangers they will face in our world. Seventeen is old enough to see these images though not younger…remember there are many children out of school and on their own by this age.

Telling the truth is not hateful as long as the whole picture is presented to them. I don’t think seeing graphic images will harm them but not sure such images would be necessary to get the point across.

Butch



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