RE: Schools promoting hatred?

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SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:01:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Homeschooling has no downside. My son was involved in sports, except football... he didnt like being tackled.. he adored soccer, baseball and basketball.. and has several trophies... unlike the ones given out now just for participating. He was involved in karate, band, boy scouts, 4h, summer camps, horse back riding... i dont feel.. nor does he.. that he was denied anything he would have had in school.. and had the freedom to explore his world in ways schools never could have offered as we often had field trips and explorations outside the classroom, taking his studies with him. explain to me how that prevented his social abilities? how did that stunt his "growing up"? And, amazingly enough, we used the school curriculumn to accomplish all this. His studies followed the state mandated one. You are asking me to judge an outcome I am not a party to i.e. I have no knowledge of how closely you followed the state curriculum or if your son tries to open doors in an abnormal manor. I personally hated all sports that involved a ball especially Rugby which for some sadistic reason was practiced in winter when the ground was frozen solid and people colliding with you hurt more; I think things like that should be voluntary but perhaps not many would volunteer. It becomes a question of how you get people interested in activities; doing them is the best indication of if you are actually going to like them not just seeing it and deciding no that isn't for me. There is this element of participation you get which is not visible from just seeing an activity. Perhaps it is not ideal i.e. done out of necessity because these activities were often forced upon us as a way of maintaining a target fitness level; I can't say 'oh I'll do this PE by running cross country see you in two hours etc. I have to participate in the same activities as the group that is the reality. I also think real choice is based on how the system is organised not if you are home school or not. If the system is flexible and gives you options in a learning environment with science equipment, books (not just what is said on the net) then that is best IMOSVHO. quote: What i may allow my child to view at home is my decision. What others seem appropriate for my child to see is also my business. you may not see images of beheadings, violence against children and women, hangings and such to be mentally disturbing... i happen to disagree. and it seems the school agrees with me. The school agrees with political pressure obviously, don't be so sure that a head teacher/school principle etc isn't privy to what goes on in a classroom. Sadly it is far too convenient for such a figure to plead ignorance in the face of protest. Aren’t teachers supposed to submit some kind of course plan for oversight? I know at university level this is definitely the case in the UK. You can’t always simply blame one single teacher or lecturer.

Arpig -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:07:54 AM)
quote: And you promote that as acceptable for a 13 year old to watch? I never allowed mine to watch horror flicks. I would hardly have allowed him to watch a woman beheaded. I watched the film Fitna on youtube.... extremely disturbing. but i dont believe its how all islamics think. perhaps i am naive in that aspect. Tazzy, the girl who was so deeply traumatized was 17, not 13. And to reply to your question...yup, I'd allow a 13 year old to see it, especially in class during a segment on the dangers of extremism...the film seems to point out the dangers of extremism on both sides...as well as a discussion of the reaction to the film, like how it was banned in lots of places out of fear of the possible reaction of Muslims. Seems very apt to me. 13 year olds used to be considered ready to live on their own in a world far crueler and more violent than ours...they can handle the truth better than many seem to think.

Kirata -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:13:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub not sure such images would be necessary to get the point across. Agreed. I'll grant that some people need a kick in the face to get something, but that's a case by case call. K.

Arpig -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:20:02 AM)
quote: I don't know if it is such a good thing. I rember, at about the age of 13, my Hebrew school teachers sat us down and had us watch films taken of the death camps of nazi Germany. The images were disturbingly vile. There are two results that came of this in my case. First, I will never forget what the holocost was and what it did. That is a good thing. But I also, to this day, must admit that I have a problem liking German's very much. I know in my head that what happened was over half a century agao. I know that the majority of Germans weren't even born back then. Still, while I can put aside my predjudice for individuals, as a group, Germans give me the creeps. I know that of all the countries in Europe, Germany is the one country I would have no desire to so much as set foot into. (I do not in any way condone this predjudice in myself but I do admit that it exists.) Showing shocking images to kids is not as cut and dried an issue as one might think. We must carefully walk the line between giving a true picture of the facts and creating life long animousity to any one group. I saw the footage at a very early age, (around 11 or 12) in a documentary my father was watching. he explained clearly what I was seeing, and I did some reading on the subject...not a lot, just some general works covering the basics of the Holocaust. It did instill me with a lifelong prejudice...against bigots and any sort of racialist theories of mankind. It instilled in me a desire to insure that such things never be allowed to happen again. It gave me the understanding that evil does exist, regardless of its supposed source, and that it can be overcome, that there is hope for humanity despite its obvious capacity for evil and cruelty. As I said, children are not half so fragile as most parents think. A child who is taught to think can handle a whole fuck of a lot more than people seem to think they can. Sure they need to talk about what they learn, in order to put it into context. Hell even my autistic son knows the basics about the Holocaust, and that millions of innocents were slaughtered for no reason but their ethnicity or sexual orientation. he manages the information just fine, and he's only 15.

tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:31:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub This is a tough one tazzygirl…when I read your original post I agreed with you 100 percent...but then when I read SL4's post I was not so sure. I thought about it for a while and decided it is important that or children are made aware of the dangers they will face in our world. Seventeen is old enough to see these images though not younger…remember there are many children out of school and on their own by this age. Telling the truth is not hateful as long as the whole picture is presented to them. I don’t think seeing graphic images will harm them but not sure such images would be necessary to get the point across. Butch I didnt think that much of it either, until i saw the clip. Even as a nurse, i found the images disturbing... and im 44. perhaps, if you have not seen it, you may find it useful to watch.

mnottertail -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:33:40 AM)
Well, thirteen year olds and younger died in those camps. When is it appropriate to warn children of sexual predators and how they should behave? Tough calls........kiddies. Happiness is a warm gun, Momma. John Lennon

tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:41:04 AM)
quote: The only real downside to homeschooling is probably in being able to teach social skills i.e. being isolated from all the people going through the same experience of growing up. In terms of one on one teaching nobody can dispute the obvious benefits of that and if the parent wants to exclude certain subjects (Darwin etc.) then they can create this perfect ignorant child in their own image. You already had judged. now you say you cannot.

tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:42:20 AM)
How many have actually seen this video?

mnottertail -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:48:15 AM)
my father lived it, in WWII as an army/airforce guy. I saw those reels at six years old or so on what is now PBS. In school, we saw alot of it in less than 6th grade. As well as the atomic aftermath of Japan. Nothing new under the sun. You see how perfectly normal I am. <tic> <tic> Ron

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:51:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I didnt think that much of it either, until i saw the clip. Even as a nurse, i found the images disturbing... and im 44. It's funny you say that assuming the older you get the more desensitised to violence you get. The reality is you probably find it more shocking not because of what the image shows but because of what you know it means i.e. an innocent person needlessly being killed in a barbaric way and that persons family suffering such a loss. Also on top of that the inherent desecration of the corpse leading to difficulties for the family to mourn as they traditionally might and remember the individual. Someone younger may not place such emotional attachment on that image and may actually be better placed to cope seeing it than yourself, that individual would have to be given the sense of what it means. What is the real difference in a fictional image in a film compared to a real life image other than the fact one has real consequences for the victim(s) and their family? Simply put you are incapable of distinguishing what someone else will cope with based on what you can cope with especially someone at a completely different stage of life.

tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:57:25 AM)
I meant the Fitnah video, Master Ron For those who have not, here is the link. I believe this kind of video teaches hatred, not only of a race, but also a religion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgAR1GdrRtM In the wrong hands... and i would have to question the methods of a teacher who follows up this kind of video with a discussion on the mutilation of female genitalia... could be incredibly dangerous.

tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 9:58:34 AM)
2 questions. How old are you? Do you have children and what are their ages?

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 10:01:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: The only real downside to homeschooling is probably in being able to teach social skills i.e. being isolated from all the people going through the same experience of growing up. In terms of one on one teaching nobody can dispute the obvious benefits of that and if the parent wants to exclude certain subjects (Darwin etc.) then they can create this perfect ignorant child in their own image. You already had judged. now you say you cannot. I can't judge one individual anecdotal piece of evidence I have no ability to scrutinise and even if I could I couldn't say for sure this wasn't just the exception to the rule. You'll see the original statement was a generalised one not specific to any single individual.

Arpig -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 10:05:54 AM)
~Fast reply~ OK, I just watched the whole film (rather than excerpts), and other than the bit at the end about the Muslim danger in the Netherlands and Europe I don't see what was so terrible about it. Yes the linking of specific verses from the Koran to the images of terrorist acts is a little over the top, but then again, those are the verses from which the terrorists draw their inspiration, so not altogether inappropriate. As to the images themselves, they are gruesome but not anything that a 15 year old couldn't handle. there is no decapitation shown (you see the scene before, then hear screaming while another verse is shown, then see a still of the guy holding up the head). The only other live action killing is an apparent execution of a woman in a light blue burka by some guy with an AK, but again you see no actual killing, just the guy putting the gun to her head. Last night I watched The Patriot (yeah I know its inaccurate as hell, but its a fun movie so there[:-]) and there was more blood and gore, including some guy getting his head torn off by a cannonball, another loosing his leg to one, and a scene where a guy blows his brains out. There are several scenes of people getting spattered in gore from people next to them being killed. In other words there is nothing image-wise that any 17 year old hasn't seen the like of or worse (most teens have seen the SAW/Halloween/Chucky.Friday 13th series, and they are far more gruesome. The danger of this film is in its association of terrorists with all Islam,and that is where I would hope the teacher would focus a good part of the discussion, but as for the aptness of the film for 17 year olds....yup, plenty apt....I would have no objection whatsoever to it being shown in the correct context to kids as young as 14 or 15, and certainly alright for 17 year olds.

tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 10:06:19 AM)
Yet you generalized without realizing that there are, or may be, exceptions to the rules. Or that your generalization may be he exception itself, and that what my experience with homeschooling is may actually be quite the norm. Either way, generalizations can come back to bite you in the ass at times.

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 10:08:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl 2 questions. How old are you? Do you have children and what are their ages? Oh do those things matter? Are you suggesting my opinion would be different under certain circumstances?[:D] It may vary under age, I may get more senile the older I get I suppose.

IrishMist -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 10:08:52 AM)
quote: And you promote that as acceptable for a 13 year old to watch? My youngesst was in second grade when they showed footage of the Holocaust. I not only agreed with the school, I wholly support their use of extreme ways when it comes to teaching children. In my daughter's case, the school acted correctly by sending home permission slips first. Those without permission were instead given something else to do. Life is not always pretty. Personally, I would rather a child learn that early in life, than later...later may be too late in some cases. Of course, this is just my opinion and how I raise my own kids. Everyone else is entitlted to do what they feel is best for their own. shrug

tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 10:09:57 AM)
So let me ask.. where is the seperation of church and state here when a film is allowed to toss such a defaming light onto one specific religion? would we allow that to happen to any other religion here? According to one article i saw, the teacher started talking about genital mutilation right afterwards. quote: There are several scenes of people getting spattered in gore from people next to them being killed. In other words there is nothing image-wise that any 17 year old hasn't seen the like of or worse (most teens have seen the SAW/Halloween/Chucky.Friday 13th series, and they are far more gruesome. I agree, and the teens comfort themselves with the knowledge that its just a movie. This was real... and in my opinion, handled badly by the school.

tazzygirl -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 10:11:10 AM)
lol.. no.. you just answered. thank you

Arpig -> RE: Schools promoting hatred? (9/25/2009 10:11:20 AM)
quote: 2 questions. How old are you? Do you have children and what are their ages? I know this wasn't aimed at me, but if it is apt to ask SL4V3...etc. then it is apt for everybody...so here goes Just shy of 50, yes, 3 kids, aged 16, 15, & 9.

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