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Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 3:37:46 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		The day after....

The fact that he was that America did, in the quiet of the polling booth, decisively select the candidate of colour has offered the U.S. that rare second chance to redefine itself to the world.
Highlighted expectations from the same source:
  • For the short term, anyway, he is going to seem like the "world's president."
  • Obama is more than a unifier. He is a cross-cultural figure.
  • Obama's administration will undoubtedly support a community of democracies and of democrats but is unlikely to see these grouping as a made-in-America venture, one more coalition to line up against a growing list of adversaries.
  • Economic recovery will be an uphill climb but with a more deeply Democratic Congress, an Obama administration can likely produce a quick stimulation package. (Now how funny is that!)
  • Obama can't risk reducing U.S. military power or being seen to let America's guard down.
  • U.S. forces will likely be staying for a while in Iraq, though increasingly in the background. In fact, there may well be spoiler-type push back from upstaged brittle leaders like Russia's Vladimir Putin. (Whose "brittle" now?)

Today's Reality:
  • Iran completes testing of Shahab 3, medium-range missiles able to reach Eastern Europe and several Middle Eastern targets other than Israel; which President Ahmadinejad is trying to keep his campaign promise of eliminating from the map of the world.
  • Venezuela is working with Iran and Russia for its own uranium sources.
  • China is showing off their new & improved "upgraded" missiles to celebrate the 60th anniversary of Red China.
  • India proudly announces its capable of delivering a 200 kiloton nuclear payload. (Not caring about that silly little UN treaty they signed pledging not to do so.

    Yup - sure is a more peaceful world.

    But lets not forget about the Administration's accomplishments thus far. Based upon the latest White House initiative, Chicago does have a GREAT chance to host the Olympics in 2016. "I will go to Copenhagen!" Not quite as powerful, nor having the impact, as Eisenhower's "I will go to Korea!", huh?
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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 3:45:45 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		Today's Reality:

Iran completes testing of Shahab 3, medium-range missiles able to reach Eastern Europe and several Middle Eastern targets other than Israel; which President Ahmadinejad is trying to keep his campaign promise of eliminating from the map of the world.


They have the maximum capability for the foreseeable future of creating one nuke warhead a year, not launch support or mobilize it. and the bulk of that was on Bushwatch. there are other issues with the other points but ....... I can't hardly believe that anyone thought he was going to save the world in his first year, or even his full two terms.

Ron

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 3:56:22 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		China is showing off their new & improved "upgraded" missiles to celebrate the 60th anniversary of Red China.

and when I talked about China some years ago, and the looming and real dangers ahead with them out here on this very board, I got something along the lines of 'Ron, we aren't Guatemala for christ's sake..' Not by Merc or beth or Merc and beth so there is no misunderstanding...

Alvaro COLOM Caballeros

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 3:57:11 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

They have the maximum capability for the foreseeable future of creating one nuke warhead a year
Oh, fuck it then; it's only one missile let it fly! Sorry to bring it up.
quote:

I can't hardly believe that anyone thought he was going to save the world in his first year, or even his full two terms.
Didn't take long for the "not enough time" card to be played. I guess the decisions made by leaders of the countries mentioned are in a different time continuum.

Ron, I appreciate you focusing on your beliefs, and "can't hardly believe" an expectation of results. Apparently this is a 'faith based' Administration.

I take it all back, everything is going as anticipated. The deficit, the unemployed, the economy, bipartisan Congressional action, the unilateral support of the world, - "ALL is well!"

Silly me...

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 3:59:55 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		No, but the sky is not falling either. They have no way of lobbing it, all they could do is sell it to someone who does, for the forseeable future.......hey, we want to be involved in the middle east? let us buy it.......give it to ummmmmmmmm Israel.

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/29/2009 4:00:29 PM >

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 4:05:16 PM   
Sanity


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Merc, is it just me, or does it appear from looking at your list (and at a few other things) that the international community sees the present administration as their doormat.

I've seen subs and slaves on collarme proclaim on their profile pages that they aren't doormats... so the obvious question is, what is the current administration doing that seems to proclaim on its international profile that it is a doormat?



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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 4:15:52 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		This is going to sound crazy- but the central bank of India is possibly in good shape.   I heard from some metals analyst.

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 4:16:01 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		They don't--------- the bulk of these foreign accomplishments were done while bush wasted away eight years talking tough at them but not with them.

Where we are at in the world is now more transparent, we can see it coming now, that they have reason to mistrust us and are doing something about it. We should explore alternatives with these folks.

Ron

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 4:21:41 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		India proudly announces its capable of delivering a 200 kiloton nuclear payload. (Not caring about that silly little UN treaty they signed pledging not to do so.

Merc, India never signed any such treaty. They did sign this though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-US_civilian_nuclear_agreement

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 4:28:16 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Merc, is it just me, or does it appear from looking at your list (and at a few other things) that the international community sees the present administration as their doormat.


Sanity,
"Un-named" sources again at work. Only one, attributing a specific quote to an individual.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy is said to have offered to a private gathering some months ago (apparently leaking is as much a pastime in Paris as Washington), that Mr. Obama is weak

Neither the quote, nor the source, would be included in any dissertation I was defending; however the European leaders actions and general concerns are becoming more vocal. That's especially the case with one story not as well covered in the US as it is in Europe (no surprise huh) regarding the US canceling the Polish-Czech missile defense deal. Washington's decision to back out of the missile shield agreement forged by the Bush administration -- and opposed by Russia -- has evoked memories among Poles of Cold War helplessness, of being brushed aside as casualties of great power politics. The indignation is partly fueled by bruised feelings over what many here describe as bungled American diplomacy in breaking the news to Warsaw.That's from the LA Times. It seems that their post election euphoria regarding this Administration has waned considerably. The worst part of this deal is how the Poles found out about it; "We heard first from the media," said Witold Waszczykowski We will talk to adversaries but our friends have to read the papers to learn about our plans for them?

The predominant sentiment, in foreign OP-ED articles is that our President is ill prepared to take on any of the tasks at hand, is long on rhetoric and short on substance. His inability to lead his own party and pass legislation has created an image of ineffective leadership. They are only opinions; but to date there isn't one result to point to as contrary to that image. Not enough time I guess...

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 4:32:31 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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No. No surprise.


quote:

That's especially the case with one story not as well covered in the US as it is in Europe (no surprise huh) regarding the US canceling the Polish-Czech missile defense deal.


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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 4:40:41 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


No. No surprise.


quote:

That's especially the case with one story not as well covered in the US as it is in Europe (no surprise huh) regarding the US canceling the Polish-Czech missile defense deal.




I am goddamn glad we cancelled that bullshit. So you are protecting the Polish-Czech folks from what with missiles? Notice that the rhetoric in Moscow is slowing down and they have actually agreed with us that certain cooperation regarding 'belligerents' may be in order. What are the poles gonna do for me? I already have troops and missiles and an untenable defense of germany with american citizens as hostage to that commitment.

Politically we have went from acrimonious worldwide bickering for the last 8 years to what in a couple hundred days worldwide bickering? Don't push that not enough time shit at me too hard, Merc.

Ron

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 4:45:27 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Today's Reality:
  • Iran completes testing of Shahab 3, medium-range missiles able to reach Eastern Europe and several Middle Eastern targets other than Israel; which President Ahmadinejad is trying to keep his campaign promise of eliminating from the map of the world.
  • Venezuela is working with Iran and Russia for its own uranium sources.
  • China is showing off their new & improved "upgraded" missiles to celebrate the 60th anniversary of Red China.
  • India proudly announces its capable of delivering a 200 kiloton nuclear payload. (Not caring about that silly little UN treaty they signed pledging not to do so.

    Yup - sure is a more peaceful world.
Wow!

And all this happened in just nine months while Obama wasn't looking?

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm playing the time card.

Or are you?

You know full well all these things were already in place and progressing under the Bush administration.

But you never do let facts get in the way of a good rant about Obama.



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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 4:50:24 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

  • Iran completes testing of Shahab 3, medium-range missiles able to reach Eastern Europe and several Middle Eastern targets other than Israel; which President Ahmadinejad is trying to keep his campaign promise of eliminating from the map of the world.

    Too bad there is not a strong anti-Iranian regime nearby, like, say, in Iraq, to keep the Iranians at bay. Didn't they used to have a strong leader up until 2003 or so? Whatever happened to him?

  • Venezuela is working with Iran and Russia for its own uranium sources.
    They wouldn't have done this if Bush were around; Chavez and Bush had a special relationship.

  • China is showing off their new & improved "upgraded" missiles to celebrate the 60th anniversary of Red China.
    WTF!? Where the hell did they get the money for that??

  • India proudly announces its capable of delivering a 200 kiloton nuclear payload. (Not caring about that silly little UN treaty they signed pledging not to do so.
    Just to make it clear- our massive military aid to India's mortal enemy Pakistan has nothing to do with this, NOTHING.

    Yup - sure is a more peaceful world.



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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 4:55:47 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Hmm. The French think that Obama is weak...


quote:

French President Nicolas Sarkozy is said to have offered to a private gathering some months ago (apparently leaking is as much a pastime in Paris as Washington), that Mr. Obama is weak


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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 5:01:50 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

acrimonious worldwide bickering for the last 8 years to what in a couple hundred days worldwide bickering?
Your perspective is that there has only been "worldwide bickering for the last 8 years"? That explains a lot. What do you consider WWII? The 'Cold War'? The various border changes that have occurred since WWII? All that "bickering" can be attributed to the last 8 years of President Bush? DAMN! The man is omnipresent even more so than Obama is credited!

However, your position would indicate that Candidate Obama was unaware of this constant bickering when putting "talk to our adversaries" plank in his platform. Shouldn't he have been aware of the complexities you point out? Results seem to point a conclusion that some critical forethought was lacking wouldn't you say?

Russia consulting with Venezuela regarding uranium indicates their cooperation with us regarding belligerents? Will the canceling of the missile defense system be the equivalent of the Cuban missile crisis 'Turkey Compromise'?

Besides the Poles, are there any other countries we are currently aligned that you, and apparently this Administration, want to ask the question; "what are they gonna do for me?" Somehow that was also missing from the campaign rhetoric.

That said, I'd be the first support abandoning NATO and withdrawing all US troops from everywhere. I'm simply trying to reconcile the expected positive results from chatting with our adversaries from today's reality. At best mixed signals are being sent, or maybe some other agenda and 'plan' will come to light soon.

quote:

Don't push that not enough time shit at me too hard, Merc.
But YOU brought it up Ron. Do you have a date circled on the calendar when that rationalization will be unacceptable so I don't upset you further?

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
Yup - sure is a more peaceful world.
You know what's so much fun? No disagreement, only assignment of blame. Forgetting of course that, all these issues being so obvious and ongoing as the posters claim, why was Obama and his campaign so ignorant of them? Shouldn't he have, if not before the election soon thereafter, said that he expected Iran to have a nuke, China to celebrate weapons expansion, Venezuela wanting help to build their own nuke, and "gee Poland - Fuck you!"?

Yup - everything is going according to plan and timetable. It's Bush's fault - "All is well!" You guys are just cracking me up today. THANKS!


< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 9/29/2009 5:11:08 PM >

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 5:17:50 PM   
MasterEJ2009


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Status: offline 		Well I have to agree with some points there merc.

I would like to ad Part of the reason why so many countries hate us here in the US is the fact we stick our noses into everyone's business. The time the US was at its best was when we had a hands off policy in our nations politics and affairs and when as a nation we were a producer nation not a consumer nation. I would much like to see America return to it roots , the roots the founding fathers created and envisioned for the nation, yet I doubt that is feasible in today's reality.

N.A.T.O is pretty useless as is the U.N , when has the U.N in the last 10 years or so done anything to stop a war or anything of substance besides sanctions which often mean in reality nothing....

I realize my post barely scratches the surface on such a complex issue, but does bring up food for thought.

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 5:28:44 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

China is showing off their new & improved "upgraded" missiles to celebrate the 60th anniversary of Red China.

and when I talked about China some years ago, and the looming and real dangers ahead with them out here on this very board, I got something along the lines of 'Ron, we aren't Guatemala for christ's sake..'

Yeah really. I read an intelligence assessment somewhere that indicated a concern that they were working on land-based carrier-killers, which would be very bad news for our ability to bring naval assets to bear over in that part of the world.

K.

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 8:53:07 PM   
Arpig


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You know, Merc does bring up a good point, though I don't think it was exactly what he was aiming at. For many in the US and around the world, expectations were astronomically high...they somehow expected the election of Obama to herald the dawning of a new age of peace and cooperation, that somehow Obama would solve all the country's and the world's problems in short order. What those people overlooked was that Obama is a politician, a consummate politician at that. He is no different than the other politicians really, no more or less...just a damned good speaker, which he has parlayed into the Presidency. Now when he performs perfectly adequately for an everyday politician (which is what he is) it seems like some enormous failure or let down. The guy never said he would do any of the things that were genuinely expected of him by many who allowed themselves to be blinded to the reality of Barack Obama....a skilled politician and gifted orator. Look carefully at what he said on the record and you will see that he expressed himself vaguely enough on most issues so as to give himself room to manoeuvrer.

What disappoints so many, and is the root cause of his approval ratings decline is the fact that he has behaved just as Johnson did...he makes deals and he backtracks, he owes (and pays) political favours, he fudges his words when he can get away with doing so, he makes speeches to distract and to push an agenda...just like every other politician does...Obama's just a fuck of a lot better at the speechifying than most is all.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 9/29/2009 8:54:00 PM >

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RE: Some Adversaries Don't Talk - They Do. - 9/29/2009 10:21:51 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
The guy never said he would do any of the things that were genuinely expected of him by many who allowed themselves to be blinded to the reality of Barack Obama....


No, he never said anything that would set the bar beyond the reach of reality...


http://www.entertonement.com/collections/508/Primary-Victory-Speech

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