RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (Full Version)

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ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 9:40:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: justagirlinzh

I've read every post you've made in this thread, Martin, since its inception. I've seen you characterize Orion's girl as anorexic and helpless; I've seen you ignore points and build strawman arguments; I've seen you completely disregard the chorus of female submissive voices saying, 'But we WANT it this way. Tie me up, beat me. Yes, yes!!'

You seem to *completely* ignore it as though we're just mouthy women who don't know our own good. Is this what you think? I doubt it, but you're not doing yourself any favours by ignoring those who have set you straight on that score.



Ironically enough, who is really the only one in this thread who is continually disrespecting women?



LadyPact -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 9:43:07 AM)

Orion, the girl is lovely.  I especially liked the pic with the flower in her hair.

Also, I'd like to say that I'm sorry to see you catching so much heat on this thread.  I'm sure you don't see it as such, as I've never noticed you having an issue standing by your position. 

Some of the comments in this thread have been more than sexist.  In no way can you take the same corrective action as being ok if administered by one gender and abuse if stemming from the other.  The same is true of sadism.  Having a penis, or a lack of one, doesn't make it right for one group and wrong for the other.  The same is true of masochism.

It would be My opinion there there is at least one individual on this thread who absolutely does not understand that.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 9:46:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MartinP

A lot has been written on this forum to caricature my position which is that I find repellent when a man slaps a woman (outside of play of course) especially hard enough to cause a split lip.


There's the breakdown. For some people, there is no "play." For some people, physical discipline is an integral component of the relationship, 24/7. They don't drift in and out of role, in and out of "scene." This is the way they live. You may not like that, you may not understand it - but it's none of your business. You have no right to judge them and insult them simply because they're living a lifestyle that you don't understand or respect. And that is, exactly, what you're doing.



lovingpet -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 10:03:08 AM)

Well, back to the OP already in progress, I think what we have learned through all these pages is that what is extreme to one is not to another and yet may constitute abuse to someone else. I'm just not so sure any of us can do anything better than just trying to draw the line for our own relationships the best we can and evaluate those around us upon their happiness, health, and how they feel about their OWN relationship. Just as Orion's girl does not look at all abused and has asked that it be stated for her over and over again that she is happy and consenting to all aspects of their relationship, it shows when someone is in bliss or peril. Can anyone look at my picture and determine the same? What do you see?

Now, I can take this and apply it to people I see in the world around me. I can see the same submissive behavior and note the calm and cheerful demeanor of one who is happy in his/her relationship and I can see the apprehension and sadness of one who is just trying to survive it. If at all possible I will want to talk to the couple and each individual so as to not make assumptions based upon my own determined limits, value system, and biases. I have the background and training to observe carefully, listen intently, and form conclusions slowly. I prefer to proceed with caution when it comes to people. In all my attempts to be helpful, I would hate to wind up destroying the very ones I wanted to save.

lovingpet



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 11:28:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MartinP

A reason?, besides equalling my nation with a corpse, actually no.


Well I provided you the literary definition, which is how I have seen it used in old, unabridged writings, so that is all I was familiar with.

quote:


Of course I am speaking of Corsica, I am corse! A person from the "region in France". Of course one day I will be a corse corpse, but currently I am just corse.

Corsica is physically an island, with beautiful montaneous forrests in the middle and the most dramatic coastal line you can imagine on the west.

The Corse people are quite different from the continental French (although there are also disparities on the continent). We are definitely more traditionalist, family- and clan-oriented. We are used at solving our conflicts without the intervention of the police. If we are lucky, we live in a strict patriarchy runned de facto by the women (I know it sounds paradoxal but it works actually quite well). Like many compatriots, I do not have the privilege of living in my country, and must travel away to earn my keep. It has the advantage that I can live pretty much the way I want and experiment with kinky lifestyle. It has the huge disadvantage that I miss the support system what a extended family in reality is and I have to live in shitty places like Paris, Montreal or London.

Now, just for your information. Corsica is not a “region of France”. It is a nation without state, currently under French administration, like Catalunya, Euskadi are under Spanish rule, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Cymru under the English boot, or Québec nearer to you. We had in 1755 the first modern constitution and were thus the first modern western democracy. Our freedom was squashed by the French armies, in the same way that the English tried to squash yours, we ware nearer and without allied.

You should visit it at least once in your life, we are very welcoming and polite, our cuisine beats anything in the vincinity

See you



Glad you let me know about that, I like to learn things, and when younger traveled some in Europe (primarily Germany, France, Swiss Alps, and Great Britian), and plan to do more traveling in the future. So it is also as I believed, a miscommunication.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 11:31:29 AM)

Thanks Panda. The only distress it has caused me really, is the effect it had on my girl reading what he wrote. This is another reason that until she is better at handling things like that, I will continue to act as her filter. The encouraging words from others has helped bounce her back, and assisted me in using this as a lesson to her that she cannot put so much weight on what strangers say, especially when they have alterior motives for their comments.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Good lord. That's what he was going on about? He thinks that woman is starved and abused?

That woman positively glows with an inner beauty that I rarely see in a woman, and anyone who could look at that inner beauty and see an abused soul is not worth arguing with. What kind of a poisoned heart could look upon that radiance and see the ugliness he claims to see? I think he's unwittingly shown us all that those photos have somehow served only as some sort of mirror into his own soul. He should be ashamed of the distress he's caused both of you with his ugliness, but I know he's not capable of feeling that. What a pity. 



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 11:33:14 AM)

Thanks LadyPact. That place we named "Kajira Meadow" and it part of the Kennesaw National Park, though way back in it. We spent an entire day exploring and walking around.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Orion, the girl is lovely.  I especially liked the pic with the flower in her hair.




justagirlinzh -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 1:22:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: justagirlinzh

I've read every post you've made in this thread, Martin, since its inception. I've seen you characterize Orion's girl as anorexic and helpless; I've seen you ignore points and build strawman arguments; I've seen you completely disregard the chorus of female submissive voices saying, 'But we WANT it this way. Tie me up, beat me. Yes, yes!!'

You seem to *completely* ignore it as though we're just mouthy women who don't know our own good. Is this what you think? I doubt it, but you're not doing yourself any favours by ignoring those who have set you straight on that score.



Ironically enough, who is really the only one in this thread who is continually disrespecting women?


Yes; the insults to amira and other women who have chosen to serve, are disgusting. Amira is lovely, and consented to Orion's way of doing things. Full stop. The white-knighting is insulting. The feminist in me is grinding her teeth.



GreedyTop -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 1:57:29 PM)

~FR~

Orion.. she is GORGEOUS!! 

heh..my Mom lives in Kennesaw, I have yet to go to the park...LOL  I may have to, next visit....



Andalusite -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 5:21:47 PM)

I agree, Martin is being very disrespectful. His posts remind me a lot of this thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_2716508/tm.htm



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 6:02:37 PM)

Thanks GreedyTop.

If you go it is the "Farm". First road just past the park entrance, follow it to the T and it is directly in front of you. Huge and great area. If you know anyone with horses, it is perfect for horse back riding, including watering areas throughout.

If you like hiking and/or the outdoors, Cmail me the next time you are headed this way. I have hiked 60% of the park areas in in Georgia, primarily in central and north GA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

~FR~

Orion.. she is GORGEOUS!! 

heh..my Mom lives in Kennesaw, I have yet to go to the park...LOL  I may have to, next visit....




LaTigresse -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 6:07:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I agree, Martin is being very disrespectful. His posts remind me a lot of this thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_2716508/tm.htm



At least the person in that thread seems to have come to realize the problem was them, not necessarily the people doing the behaviour that bothered them.



AnimusRex -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/10/2009 7:24:34 PM)

Echoing my thoughts in IrishMist's post, concerning abuse:

In the Western world, no one is forced to endure physical abuse- no one in a bad relationship is deserving of pity. Whether a woman endures repeated beatings because of some erotic desire, or love, or just some sense of worthlessness, pitying her and seeing her as incapable of solvng her problems is not an act of kindness. So in the end, it doesn't really matter to me why she stays, if she chooses to stay, she has made a choice.

We all generally end up with the partner we deserve to have.



IronBear -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/11/2009 5:44:57 AM)

Of course I should have realised the Corse meant a native of Corsica. Corsica was historically the birthplace of the First Little Corporal (Napoléon Bonaparte) the Second Little Corporal being Adolph Hitler who was born in Austria. I had heard numerous stories of the clannishness of Corsicans and inter-clan wars in the past. I have also heard that the Corsicans traditionally are most excellent knife fighters too. Friends I was talking to today used to holiday in Corsica yearly when they were employed in the US and speak highly of the cuisine, friendless and willing to share everything except their women (Death to any fool who tries to run off with a girl as her family will hunt the bloke down and fillet him).

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Echoing my thoughts in IrishMist's post, concerning abuse:

In the Western world, no one is forced to endure physical abuse- no one in a bad relationship is deserving of pity. Whether a woman endures repeated beatings because of some erotic desire, or love, or just some sense of worthlessness, pitying her and seeing her as incapable of solvng her problems is not an act of kindness. So in the end, it doesn't really matter to me why she stays, if she chooses to stay, she has made a choice.

We all generally end up with the partner we deserve to have.


I find this argument to be technically correct. It can not account fully for those who, whilst have the right and sometimes the help top relocate outside an abusive and dangerous situation, are driven to remain because it is all they know. The line I highlited is another version of something I have used at motivation seminars and actually pissed some people off to the point where a couple tried to physically attack me. "If you are sitting there with the arse out of your unwashed jeans, it is because that is where you want to be! If you had wanted to be in an improved situation you would have taken steps to at least got a good clean pair of second hand jeans as the first step towards empowering yourself and move towards improving your whole life and not just your finances."  Harsh but true and as many of us know there are some who do need help to get out of a rut. Many of those can not move forward and will resist any help until they decide it is time to do something. Sometimes, just occasionally a size 12 planted on their ass gives the leverage needed to break free and start on the road to a better situation.

Having said this. Just because any one of sees something which we believe to be wrong (according to our morals or ethics), it does not automatically mean it is wrong for those involved. We of all parts of society should theoretically, be far more tolerant and understanding to other peoples kinks even if they are not ours. I do believe in ascertaining all the details and available data about the situation and those involved before jumping in to rescue some damsel (or lad) in distress. After if something isn't broken. who sais you need to fix it?




CaringandReal -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/11/2009 6:19:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

Yidlish? yiddish english


Or Yiddishah, often used by practioners in the shower as they belt out, (clears throat), "My Yiddishah Mama!" ;)



Justme696 -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/11/2009 6:26:56 AM)

sounds great...fiddler on the roof...and shower [&:]



tazzygirl -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/11/2009 8:11:19 AM)

~FR

taking from justagirlinzh post... the slave in me is seething! she submitted, no one but Master Orion's opinion will matter to her... as it should be.

amira is a lovely woman... and in this day and age of obesity rates, someone is complaining over a grown woman being 8 lbs beneath the "medical" weight for her height? give me a break!

i sense alot of jealousy in the posts from Martin.

Master Orion, she is lovely!



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/11/2009 8:59:43 AM)

Thank you Tazzy, and amira thanks everyone for the compliments. I do not believe the Corse considered what his words/actions may do, as he mounted his crusade against a faceslap. I find it odd in our day and age, that many look at only the physical aspects of something, without ever looking at the mental and emotional aspects. Is it not common knowledge that emotional and mental wounds are more difficult to get over, and that the human psyche is more fragile than our bodies can ever be?

The Corse was coarse, as he traveled his course. Never looking where he stomped, as he marched along on his clannish crusade.



variation30 -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/14/2009 12:27:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daintydimples

I've been trying to catch up with all the reading in the 24/7 TPE thread, and came across an issue that has been on my mind for some time. I'm posting here so as not to (further) hijack that thread.

The issue is, how far is too far? If an activity is consensual, does that make it okay? Where do you, personally, draw the line? Bone breaking? Amputation? Reliving past incest?


if two people consent. what business is it of mine what they do?



WyldHrt -> RE: Extreme BDSM & Ethics (10/14/2009 1:34:23 AM)

quote:

I do not believe the Corse considered what his words/actions may do, as he mounted his crusade against a faceslap. I find it odd in our day and age, that many look at only the physical aspects of something, without ever looking at the mental and emotional aspects. Is it not common knowledge that emotional and mental wounds are more difficult to get over, and that the human psyche is more fragile than our bodies can ever be?

I have to agree with this. While face slapping/backhanding is a VERY hard limit for me, I honestly think, all things being equal, that I would prefer a backhand to the mouth over a nasty remark about my weight/ appearance. I suspect that many, if not most, of us with body image issues would feel the same. Unfortunately, some don't bother to consider such things before running off at the mouth, or keyboard.

Oh, and you can add me to the list of folks who think amira is beautiful, Orion. [:)]



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