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Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 6:57:07 AM   
mistoferin


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There is a discussion going on another thread regarding guns and xxblushesxx pointed out correctly that it didn't really belong on that thread...so I am bringing it over here because I have some very strong thoughts on this subject.

Angelic made these points:

quote:

Children and guns do not mix...

Columbine

Oregon

It happened...

So to those of Yyou Wwho have guns and children in Yyour homes and say to Yyourselves, it won't happen to me... please for Yyour children's sake... think again.


quote:

gun cases have locks, keys can be found... locks can be unlocked... if my understanding is correct that is precisely what happened with Columbine.. would Columbine have happened if there weren't guns available in the home? who knows? The gun rights activistis will say he would have gotten them some place else... but the facts (as i know them) are that the parents had guns that were LOCKED in a gun case... somehow the key became accessable...the rest is a sad part of history.


owned girlie went on to make this point, which I personally think is right on the money:

quote:

It is my opinion that whatever children are not allowed to see, touch, or learn about, they want the most and are most curious about. i tried telling that to my sister who literally covered her 6 year old son's eyes when passing Victoria's Secret in the mall. Guess what store he now wants to know most about?


But then went on to contradict herself with this quote:

quote:

Now, i don't have kids in the house. Had a neice come stay awhile and i left my gun with a friend. It's not a chance i wanted to take. But, if there ARE going to be weapons in the house, they had better be locked up in a gun safe and completely unaccessible. Just hiding them doesn't cut it. i'm a supporter of having firearms. i am not a supporter of being stupid about them.



Now I was raised in a home where guns were right there in plain sight hanging in the gun rack on the wall. I know...horrors!!!! The same was true for many of the homes that I went into of friends and relatives. You didn't hear all the stories then of kids shooting each other. Why? Because there was this thing in homes of that time called discipline. There was respect for your parents and their teachings.

The guns in our home were not a curiousity. They were right there every single day of our lives. They were taken down, taken apart, cleaned, handled and shot. None of this was hidden from us. We were told and came to know that if we ever wanted a closer look at one or the opportunity to shoot one of them....all we had to do was ask. We were also told that if we ever got the notion in our heads to touch one of those guns outside of the presence of my Father that there would be very severe consequences to pay and punishment would be swift. We KNEW from experience that my Father was not the sort of man who said things that he had no intention of following through on....so if he said No, he meant it...and if he said "You ever touch this without me being here and I will tan your hide in such a way that you will not be able to sit for a month"....we knew he meant that too. My Father was a hunter and we saw from the time that we could walk just exactly what a gun was capable of. We learned to have a great respect for their power.

When I became an adult and had my own children...the guns that I had inherited and acquired were right there...hanging in the gun rack on the wall. I showed my kids exactly as my Father had done with us. I also raised my boys in pretty much the same way that my parents raised me....and instilled in them a genuine respect for my authority as a parent. I was not afraid to discipline my boys when it was necessary...and they knew that I never said something just to hear myself talk....what I said I meant and I had every intention of following through.

I am an avid hunter. Now that my boys are grown, they too share that love of the outdoors. We all have a great understanding of firearms.....and an even greater respect for them.

I firmly believe that where children get into trouble with guns (and I am not talking about kids turning into thugs and joining gangs...that is a whole different issue)...is when they are not educated about them. It is when a gun in the home is treated like a dirty little secret. It is when there are guns in a home where there has been no education of them...and more importantly where there is no discipline. The "hidden away" gun is then a curiousity when found. Kind of like stumbling upon your Mom's dildo...you're gonna check it out...but you sure as hell aren't going to go ask her to show it to you.

It is my opinion that child/gun accidents and incidents like Columbine CAN be prevented. They can be prevented by educating your children....but more importantly...by being a PARENT. One who is in touch with their children. One who has set the foundation for respect of their rules. One who is not afraid to guide their children....and also to discipline them when it is appropriate. Too often today I see parents trying hard to be their kids friends....mostly because today we have so little precious time to spend with them. But they fail to realize that kids don't need you to be their friends....they will form many friendships in their lives. They only have one shot though at having PARENTS.



< Message edited by mistoferin -- 3/4/2006 7:16:13 AM >


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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 7:30:12 AM   
fergus


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Guns are tools like any other ... al be it dangerous ones.

Parents need to be parents. A person who leaves guns about with children is horribly negligent, just as someone who leaves a bottle of poison where a toddler can get a hold of it.

A responsible parent, who is a gun owner, should always have the guns locked up, yet the child should know what they are, and what they are capable of.

At 12 or 13, you might teach your child to drive and let them back the car out of the driveway ... although you would NOT let them take it out ontl the street, and/or only let them do this under the strictest of supervision. A car is dangerous.

A gun owner should pick an appropriate age to teach a child how a firearm operates and instill within them a respect for what the firearm can do, and proper safety. Anything less is negligent.

fergus

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 7:40:27 AM   
FangsNfeet


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So what would happen if we took away every gun in the world and melted them?

Hmmmm. You can take away the guns but you can't take away the violence. Kids can still make bombs, deadly chemicals to put in ventolation systems, poision the water, and cause the power to go out. Did you ever watch the movie Heathers? Such acts of anger and distruction are possible without every having to fire a single shot.

Good parents are nice to have but they can't make all the bullies, jerks, and girls who like mind games go away.

Education is great. Atleast they are aware of the consiquinces of there actions. All you can hope is that people will realize "It's not worth it!"

Any how, there aren't simple solutions. Loop holes exist with every idea. Faults just need to keep being placed on the individual.





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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 7:46:30 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

So what would happen if we took away every gun in the world and melted them?


The Japanese tried this. I don't think the Japan Perry arrived in was all that peaceful a society.

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 7:51:37 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

At 12 or 13, you might teach your child to drive and let them back the car out of the driveway ... although you would NOT let them take it out ontl the street, and/or only let them do this under the strictest of supervision. A car is dangerous.


Your right...cars are dangerous. Although, I have not looked it up I would have to think that more people are killed in this country by car accidents than there are by gun accidents. But you wouldn't tell all car owners who have kids that they need to hide their cars...that would be ridiculous. No, as parents, you teach them about the car...and it's dangers.

_____________________________

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 7:52:58 AM   
windchymes


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If you tried to take all the guns away, people would just want them more. It's human nature.

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 8:00:34 AM   
IceyOne


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Like Mistoferin, I was raised with guns, and taught a deep respect and fear for their power. I raised my kids in the same way. They were shown at an early age how to shoot, handle, respect, and to fear guns.

Curiosity is the first MAJOR issue in a youngins life. If parents don't satisfy that curiosity, then the little ones will figure out a way to do it themselves ( and that is not just in relation to guns )



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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 8:22:13 AM   
MsIncognito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Your right...cars are dangerous. Although, I have not looked it up I would have to think that more people are killed in this country by car accidents than there are by gun accidents. But you wouldn't tell all car owners who have kids that they need to hide their cars...that would be ridiculous. No, as parents, you teach them about the car...and it's dangers.


I think the difference here is that the main purpose for a car is not to kill and maim people. It CAN happen but that's not what cars were invented for. The main purpose of guns is to kill, isn't it? Whether it's used strictly for hunting or self protection the main purpose is still the same - to kill. I don't think there's any two ways about that.

Having said that, I think that if kids want to kill each other there are plenty of tools at their disposal right in school. Scissors are readily available and not only are they not locked up they are in plain view and readily accessible in every classroom. A sharpened pencil and the intent to harm can do a real number on someone's face, particularly the eyes. What about mathematical sets with all those intstruments with the pointy bits on them for drawing circles and the like? Every student has those. Where's the outcry to have those banned?

Although I'm not a big advocate of everyone toting a gun as a their constitutional right (hey, I'm Canadian after all) I think the real issue is why are kids growing up to think that killing is ok? I suspect that the answer is complex and multi-faceted which is why focusing on blaming guns is so popular - it's a lot easier than figuring out why we're so messed up as a society and trying to fix that.


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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 8:24:08 AM   
IrishMist


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I keep guns in my house, in my car, and on my person. My daughter is 12 years old, she knows where each gun is, where the spare ammunition is, how to load, and how to shoot. She also knows that guns are not toys to be waved around to impress friends. She has seen what they are capable are doing, and has a very deep respect and fear of the power that they contain. On two occassions she has accompanied the sherrifs department here to talk with other kids about the safety of guns. She is also an avid supporter AGAINST private gun ownership. Mainly because she has seen first hand what can happen when PARENTS do not educate their kids about the dangers of guns. All of this though does not change the fact that she knows where mine are, she knows how to handle them, and she would use them, in a heartbeat, if the need arose.

I grew up with guns, and though my father never actually taught us how to shoot them, we knew where they were in the house, and where the ammumition was. Because we were allowed to handle them though, it removed our curiosity about them enough that we never felt the need to 'show them off' or 'just look at them'. Of course, the fact that my father threatened to switch us was a very good incentive to stay away from them

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 8:34:45 AM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I keep guns in my house, in my car, and on my person. My daughter is 12 years old, she knows where each gun is, where the spare ammunition is, how to load, and how to shoot. She also knows that guns are not toys to be waved around to impress friends. She has seen what they are capable are doing, and has a very deep respect and fear of the power that they contain. On two occassions she has accompanied the sherrifs department here to talk with other kids about the safety of guns. She is also an avid supporter AGAINST private gun ownership. Mainly because she has seen first hand what can happen when PARENTS do not educate their kids about the dangers of guns. All of this though does not change the fact that she knows where mine are, she knows how to handle them, and she would use them, in a heartbeat, if the need arose.

I grew up with guns, and though my father never actually taught us how to shoot them, we knew where they were in the house, and where the ammumition was. Because we were allowed to handle them though, it removed our curiosity about them enough that we never felt the need to 'show them off' or 'just look at them'. Of course, the fact that my father threatened to switch us was a very good incentive to stay away from them


Holy crap, IrishMist.....you rock!

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 8:41:09 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

Holy crap, IrishMist.....you rock!


LOL not really. There are just as many parents out there who take the same stance with guns in relation to kids. Too often we stress the need for communication, but forget to communicate with the ones who need it the most...our own kids.

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 8:48:23 AM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Holy crap, IrishMist.....you rock!


LOL not really. There are just as many parents out there who take the same stance with guns in relation to kids. Too often we stress the need for communication, but forget to communicate with the ones who need it the most...our own kids.



I'm just thinking, watch out for her, she's packin'!

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 9:06:40 AM   
angelic


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Erin, i agree 100% with what you said. However, in the first part of my post on the other thread. i said:

quote:

Several years ago i watched a program about guns and children. The first part of the program was a discussion with a card carrying gun rights activist, social worker and psychologist... who proudly proclaimed how her daughter knew the dangers of guns because she had been 'taught' from birth the dangers of said gun and there was no way she would go near, let alone touch a gun...
quote:



This mother had felt like she had done all the right things. Her daughter was being raised to respect guns and know the dangers of them.

Then i went on to say this:

quote:

... pan to a classroom where a disabled gun was placed... every child in that room pointed that gun at another child and guess what? the all knowing psycholgist's daughter was one of the first... the psychologist was absolutely stunned and shocked... she had done all the right things, right?
quote:



Her daughter picked up the disabled gun, pointed it at another child and PULLED the trigger. The shock and horror on the mother's face was heartwrenching.

i guess my point is, sometimes even when we are absolutely certain it won't happen to us, it can.

That mom had taken away the 'unknown' of the gun and still even after all her teachings, her daughter still pointed that very deadly weapon at another child and pulled.

Personally, no i don't like guns; however, i do not want to take away your right to have one.

Having said that... what is the purpose of an AK47? or an uzzi? A person can't hunt with them (can they?). There is only ONE purpose and that is to KILL another human being. This is where my concern comes in.


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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 9:07:49 AM   
angelic


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oh good grief... i suck at quoting!!!! LOL

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 9:09:31 AM   
maybemaybenot


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Using the Columbine masacre as an example of poor parenting in teaching gun safety and or education is a little off, IMO. ownedgirlie wrote that if the guns weren't available in the house...... Those young men had an arsenal of weapons sold to them illegally, bought illegally and bombs that they themselves made. They did not use Mama and Poppas guns. The guns were stored in the parents home, true, and perhaps the parents should have done routine house searches. But were their any indicators that they should have ? I don't know the answer to that Q. If the parents wre gun owners, who is to say that they did not teach the children responsible gun ownership/handling ? One can teach, but the pupil does not neccesarily have to listen.
My very HO is that these kids were just evil. Had the parents found them, they would have found other places to hide them.

You can be the best parent out there and their are children who are just going to go wrong. I have a hard time putting blame on one person for the actions of another. And I think that is where the greater problem lies. We have < as a country > come to a place where personal responsibility is not expected.

As for owning guns, I will be in the minority, I am sure, but I believe we need enforcement of current gun laws. We have many gun laws, the courts aren't enforcing them. I will site my home state, we have a mandatory sentence for owning an unlicensed gun. This law is not enforced. You can read any day in the court docket of someone charged with illegal possesion of a fire arm being sentenced to probation. Just this week in my hometown court there was a man sentenced to 6 months incarceration for driving without a license, not DUI, not driving to endanger. Same court same judge, sentenced another individual to one years probation for illegal possesion of a firearm, assault and battery and reckless endangerment. Despite a mandatory law for the illegal possesion charge.
I know I feel safer with the illegal driver locked up and the gun toter walking the streets. < sarcasm>

Some guns should be outlawed.Automatic weapons for one. Simply by the nature of the gun, it is clearly not being used for protection or hunting.

As I wrote in the other thread, I have a horrific fear of guns. I grew up in Pa. where everyone had a gun and hunting was the norm. I never had a bad experience with a gun, I simply have a fear. That's me, I don' want to take guns away from responsible others, but I sure want to limit their access to the wrong hands and to see the ones who are not complying with the laws punished.

mbmbn



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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 9:16:26 AM   
Mercnbeth


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Firearm deaths make news. Children, accidental or intentionally, injured or killed by firearms are evening news lead stories. Realty is if the causes of accidental childhood death were to be prioritized; going after the guns would only occur after bicycles, and swimming pools. Drowning is the second leading cause of death, yet no one is pushing for making it illegal to have a pool in your home if you have a child under 10.

quote:

Injury is the leading cause of death in children over 1 year of age. In 2001, 5,526 children died from unintentional injuries.

Falls are the leading cause of unintentional injury for children. Children ages 14 and under account for one-third of all fall-related visits to hospital emergency rooms.

In 2002, nearly 300,000 children ages 14 and under were treated in the US for bicycle-related injuries. Nearly half (47 percent) of children ages 14 and under hospitalized for bicycle-related injuries are diagnosed with a traumatic brain injury.

Drowning is the second leading cause of unintentional injury-related death among children ages one to 14. The majority of drownings and near-drownings occur in residential swimming pools and in open water sites. However, children can drown in as little as one inch of water.

Airway obstruction injury is the leading cause of unintentional injury-related death among infants under age one.

Approximately 45 percent of unintentional injury deaths occurred in and around the home. Unintentional home injury deaths to children are caused primarily by fire and burns, suffocation, drowning, firearms, falls, choking and poisoning.

Source: http://www.chkd.org/Poisoning_and_Injuries/stats.asp


quote:

My Father was a hunter and we saw from the time that we could walk just exactly what a gun was capable of. We learned to have a great respect for their power.


this slave speaks from her experiences of youth, with two siblings within 4 years of her age...at 6 we moved to a rural area, just over the hill from a National Forest that spans well over a million acres, complete with cougars, bears, boar, etc. it was also 40 minutes out from the nearest sheriff's substation and was NOT patrolled by any law enforcement. next to the front door, propped in the corner, sat a LOADED 410/22 rifle. not ONCE in the next 10 years of living there did this slave or either of her siblings NOT know what it was for, the damage it could do, how to handle it, clean it, use it or respect it. at 10 this slave shot a 12 gauge for the first time. Dad took us to the local firing range, we would practice shoot at home, we learned to shoot both pistols and rifles. there was no mysterious lockbox, no "wonder what this can do?" running around in this slave's mind. she knew from first hand experience, the only thing to point that thing at is the ground when you are carrying it around other living things you don't intend to shoot or at the predator that is threatening you or your loved one or livestock's life.

quote:

Because there was this thing in homes of that time called discipline. There was respect for your parents and their teachings..."I will tan your hide in such a way that you will not be able to sit for a month".


as one who had her hide tanned as well, parents these days can't even make the threat...much less follow through, and that's a damn shame to have authority usurped like that...every time this slave's hide was tanned she deserved it, it was an extremely infrequent punishment, not some form of abuse, but that opinion isn't very PC...now even the threat is prosecutable. that extends out to the school as well~in this slave's elementary school which included K-8, there was a large wooden paddle hanging on the wall in the Principal's office and EVERYONE knew it was there and the principal wasn't afraid to use it. PUBLIC school. this slave remembers hearing about it's use twice, on an 8th grade boy both times, in the 5 years she attended, but you can bet it was in the back of the kids minds when the threat of going to the Principal's office
was made, and many a kid straightened up.

the only other point this slave would like to comment on is that MOM wasn't going to the job every day and neither was DAD until this slave was 12. having a parent at home during the day might seem a waste of income earning potential, but this slave doesn't think any amount of money can compensate for it.

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 9:17:57 AM   
Elegant


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I also grew up with guns in the house and was taught gun safety at an early age. It was a requirement even if I did not wish to hunt.

Master Archer grew up in a gun owning family. His mother was the hunter and brought him up to respect and appreciate firearms.

We have guns in the house as well as two now young teen kidlets. Yes, the guns are in a safe but they were in a safe even when Master lived alone. (Many home break-ins are for the purpose of stealing guns). Both children were taught gun safety when they were younger and the boy received a BB gun for his 8th birthday and a rifle for his 12th birthday. Both stay locked up in the safe. (He is now more enamored with his new paintball gun).

We also have knives and swords in the house (not locked up) and a nice collection of recurve and longbows. Both children also know safe and proper knife usage and bow usage.

They KNOW not to nrag about the weapons in the house..not to even mention them to other people. Friends may see the swords, knives and bows when they visit but even a mere touch will elicit a word from the grown-ups. If any young friend asks questions about the weapons we tell them some basic safety info. In a few cases we have gotten permission from their parents to teach them more about safety and respect of weapons.

We treat weapon education just as we treat sex education...start young with small bits of basic information and increase the details, amount of information and timing as they grow.

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 9:24:40 AM   
Chaingang


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I believe the right to gun ownership should be essentially without regulation. If the weapon is made you should be able to buy it, short of something like a nuke. If a criminal has served their time, I believe in the reinstatement of all of their fundamental rights (otherwise, why even set them free?).

A government that isn't doing anything wrong has nothing to fear from it's people, right? I find it especially amusing to use this rationale in this context...

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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 9:29:33 AM   
IronBear


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Just a general comment or two....

I grew up in country Victoria (Australia) with a fishing rod in one hand and a shot gun inthe other. From when I was old enough to handle a gun, I was taught by my Father, Grand Father and their friends who were in the truest sence Sporting Shooters and Gentlemen. I never "Played with a gun" I learned to first cleanguns when my Father returned home. Then I learned to shoot them. I learned to hunt the propper way, looking after the environment and conserving the wild life. We hunted for the pot and never killed for fun. Later I had additional training in the military. It is ingrained in me never to point a gun at anyone unless I am prepared to use it. never place finger intrigger untill the target is aquired. never shoot without being aware of the back ground (bullets travel a long way and there are no guarantees that no one is in the way).

Thinking about what Merc & beth said. I remember when I was driving ambulances for a while, the one call we all feared usually happened about 4pm and it was motor vehicle v push bike. It was a sickening feeling when that call came in. You knew that some kid had been hit by a car (Pre manditory helmet days). The second most feared call was a swimming pool call.. You knew some young kid, toddler usually, had fallen into a pool. Yeah well shit.. I still get choked up with a few very bad memories...........


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RE: Thoughts inspired by another post regarding guns..... - 3/4/2006 9:33:44 AM   
angelic


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Maybemaybenot, i did mispeak about the Columbine incident. Those young men were evil and wired wrong. They purchased their illegal weapons off the internet and kept the arsenal hidden. It would have happened regardless of what their parents may have done.

i have seen, however, parents saying how they have done the right thing about education, etc. with guns and their children; and are amazed when little cindy shows little johnny the cool gun mom and dad have, and then one of them are 'accidentially' shot.

Which leads me to another question... at what age is the appropriate age to begin teaching children about guns? At what age are their minds developed enough to fully grasp how deadly they are?

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