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RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 9:45:05 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

It would be easy to introduce competition into the market, by simply allowing companies to compete across state lines. As of right now many companies have a monopoly or damn close to it in many markets, be it from regulation or the costs to get licensed in each and every state. I honestly believe that this one little thing would do alot to bring down the premium prices. ORIGINAL: Thadius



Allowing the insurance companies to compete over state lines is a solution that sounds good but it profoundly flawed. The problem is that, in that case, no matter where an insurance company sold a policy, it would be governed under the laws of the state that it was based in. All the insurance companies would have to do is influence one state government (and if the federal government is for sale to lobbyist money, the state governments are on sale at fire sale prices) and have whatever regulations they want put into place. The end result would be less competition and less protection for policy holders than there is today. The large insurers have offices in all fifty states (blue cross/blue shield) for example. I don't believe that allowing them to consolidate into one state with the most beneficial regulations for them would do much to solve the problem.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 9:49:53 PM   
Thadius


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quote:



What impression would he make on the world if he hadn't attacked Iraq? How about that we were a country that didn't lie to the world and attack countries that we had no business attacking? Maybe that we were people who were serious about stopping terrorism rather than a bunch of cowboys looking for someone to shoot? I would have kind of liked that message sent.


I do have to call you on this one. As we were operating under a cease fire agreement at the time Bush took office, the same one that was in place while Clinton was in office. Clinton had the right, and did attack Iraq during his presidency using the terms of the cease-fire agreement, Bush was entitled to do the same. Therefore, claiming we had no business attacking Iraq, is your opinion.

Just to touch on the WMD issue very quickly. I blame both the Clinton and Bush administrations for the weapons not being found. I would further suggest that those weapons most likely got smuggled out of the country during the inept breaks in inspections and with the porous borders. I do realize that speculation is simply that, my speculation. As for whether those weapons were there... we sold them to Iraq (during the Iraq-Iran war), we taught them how to make them, the madman used them on his own people. If there were no weapons in Iraq's possesion why didn't Suddam cooperate with the UN inspectors and get the sanctions and other restrictions lifted? Instead, the regime fought at every chance to prevent the inspections and or to prove the destruction of said weapons and related facilities. Sure, one could argue soveriegnty is the reason for the fight; but when it became obvious that we had elected a cowboy and he was going shooting indians....



quote:



I'm always amazed by the fact that everyone who agrees with me is an educated, clear thinker while those who disagree with me are just mindless, silly sheep buying the lies that they are being fed....drinking the kool-aid as it were. I see that you've discovered the same thing.



I am assuming that this was meant as sarcasm...

Have a great night.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 9:51:47 PM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

It would be easy to introduce competition into the market, by simply allowing companies to compete across state lines. As of right now many companies have a monopoly or damn close to it in many markets, be it from regulation or the costs to get licensed in each and every state. I honestly believe that this one little thing would do alot to bring down the premium prices. ORIGINAL: Thadius



Allowing the insurance companies to compete over state lines is a solution that sounds good but it profoundly flawed. The problem is that, in that case, no matter where an insurance company sold a policy, it would be governed under the laws of the state that it was based in. All the insurance companies would have to do is influence one state government (and if the federal government is for sale to lobbyist money, the state governments are on sale at fire sale prices) and have whatever regulations they want put into place. The end result would be less competition and less protection for policy holders than there is today. The large insurers have offices in all fifty states (blue cross/blue shield) for example. I don't believe that allowing them to consolidate into one state with the most beneficial regulations for them would do much to solve the problem.




Wouldn't they be required to follow each state's regulations, just as auto insurance companies are? We aren't talking about credit cards here, where the home state rules apply.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 9:52:45 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

He spent a bit more than that, rule.

http://www.mercatus.org/PublicationDetails.aspx?id=26426

Most sources im finding talk of figures around 10 billion or more for his 8 years in office.


As much as I hate defending Bush, I don't think that 10 trillion is accurate.

The Politifact link I posted earlier put it at about 5 trillion, which seems to be what most sources I've seen have stated.

If you look at table 1 in your link, which is directly stating deficit figures it comes to 3.88 trillion, which I would have to research how they arrived at that.  It is the lowest I have heard.



Edited because I realized they had already included interest.


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/10/2009 9:57:58 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 9:56:35 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Why is it so many conservative posters on here will post endless tirades with no factual reference and then claim there is no need for citations because "those are the facts and everyone knows them"?



Well, RML, perhaps that is your perception because we also have a certain crop of left/liberal posters who will try to distract from the glaring errors of their own idiotic, uninformed, positions by demanding proof that the sky is blue, and then argue that since it is dark as often as light, and that some days are cloudy, the sky is statistisically blue less than half the time, and that therefore the sky is not blue and anyone who says it is is a Rush Limbaugh copycat and a doodoo-head. 

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 9:59:07 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
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quote:

ust to touch on the WMD issue very quickly. I blame both the Clinton and Bush administrations for the weapons not being found. I would further suggest that those weapons most likely got smuggled out of the country during the inept breaks in inspections and with the porous borders. I do realize that speculation is simply that, my speculation. As for whether those weapons were there... we sold them to Iraq (during the Iraq-Iran war), we taught them how to make them, the madman used them on his own people. If there were no weapons in Iraq's possesion why didn't Suddam cooperate with the UN inspectors and get the sanctions and other restrictions lifted? Instead, the regime fought at every chance to prevent the inspections and or to prove the destruction of said weapons and related facilities. Sure, one could argue soveriegnty is the reason for the fight; but when it became obvious that we had elected a cowboy and he was going shooting indians....
ORIGINAL: Thadius



As I recall, Sadam did allow the UN to inspect to the point where the UN inspectors were satisfied that there were no WMD in Iraq. Bush, again as I recall, told them that they were wrong and we would prove it with the invasion. There has been no credible proof offered of these claims, there has been no proof of any great smuggling of weapons from Iraq. There has also been no credible evidence that Iraq was in any way a threat to the United States or it's interests. As you say, he was a cowboy and started shooting indians. I expect better from a president.


(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 10:00:47 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
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quote:

Well, RML, perhaps that is your perception because we also have a certain crop of left/liberal posters who will try to distract from the glaring errors of their own idiotic, uninformed, positions by demanding proof that the sky is blue, and then argue that since it is dark as often as light, and that some days are cloudy, the sky is statistisically blue less than half the time, and that therefore the sky is not blue and anyone who says it is is a Rush Limbaugh copycat and a doodoo-head. [ORIGINAL: TheHeretic




I would like to see a link or citation of any left leaning poster calling any of the Rush Limbaugh copycats a doodoo-head.


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 10:03:08 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Why is it so many conservative posters on here will post endless tirades with no factual reference and then claim there is no need for citations because "those are the facts and everyone knows them"?



Well, RML, perhaps that is your perception because we also have a certain crop of left/liberal posters who will try to distract from the glaring errors of their own idiotic, uninformed, positions by demanding proof that the sky is blue, and then argue that since it is dark as often as light, and that some days are cloudy, the sky is statistisically blue less than half the time, and that therefore the sky is not blue and anyone who says it is is a Rush Limbaugh copycat and a doodoo-head. 



doodoo-head?

Conservatism...............leading the way into improving intellectual discourse and proving facts are only those things needed when you don't already know you are right.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 10:07:45 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

The president did not bow to anyone. He went to shake hands with a man who was about a foot shorter than he was. It was a case of bend over or pull the foreign leader's hand up more than politeness dictates.

Ohferchrissake.

Maybe I'm politically naive, but I just saw it as a cordial gesture. (shrug)

K.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 10:13:18 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

Maybe I'm politically naive, but I just saw it as a cordial gesture. (shrug)
ORIGINAL: Kirata




I gotta agree.....now if he had knelt and gave him head, I would have viewed that as cause for criticism.
(actually first time I saw the video of the incident..interesting...thanks for the link)

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 10:15:33 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
doodoo-head?




Figurative language, RML.  I know.  Over your head.  Never mind.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 10:19:39 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

first time I saw the video of the incident..interesting...thanks for the link

Jeeez, how'd you miss that? Well I didn't know... you're welcome.

K.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 10:24:18 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

He spent a bit more than that, rule.

http://www.mercatus.org/PublicationDetails.aspx?id=26426

Most sources im finding talk of figures around 10 billion or more for his 8 years in office.


As much as I hate defending Bush, I don't think that 10 trillion is accurate.

The Politifact link I posted earlier put it at about 5 trillion, which seems to be what most sources I've seen have stated.

If you look at table 1 in your link, which is directly stating deficit figures it comes to 3.88 trillion, which I would have to research how they arrived at that.  It is the lowest I have heard.



Edited because I realized they had already included interest.



By October 2008, due to increases in domestic and foreign spending,[92] the national debt had risen to $11.3 trillion,[93][94] an increase of over 100% from the start of the year 2000 when the debt was $5.6 trillion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush

George W. Bush's presidency cost the country about $11.5 trillion, if we estimate liberally.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/StockInvestingTrading/cost-of-the-bush-era-11-point-5-trillion.aspx

lol.. even the experts cant seem to agree.

You mention 3.88 trillion... i dont see that number anywhere. Oh, i figured it out.

I think the numbers may be referring too.. in the low numbers of 5 trillion being what was added to the deficit and the higher 11 trillion number being what he may have actually spent

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 10/10/2009 10:38:49 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/10/2009 10:28:28 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ust to touch on the WMD issue very quickly. I blame both the Clinton and Bush administrations for the weapons not being found. I would further suggest that those weapons most likely got smuggled out of the country during the inept breaks in inspections and with the porous borders. I do realize that speculation is simply that, my speculation. As for whether those weapons were there... we sold them to Iraq (during the Iraq-Iran war), we taught them how to make them, the madman used them on his own people. If there were no weapons in Iraq's possesion why didn't Suddam cooperate with the UN inspectors and get the sanctions and other restrictions lifted? Instead, the regime fought at every chance to prevent the inspections and or to prove the destruction of said weapons and related facilities. Sure, one could argue soveriegnty is the reason for the fight; but when it became obvious that we had elected a cowboy and he was going shooting indians....
ORIGINAL: Thadius



As I recall, Sadam did allow the UN to inspect to the point where the UN inspectors were satisfied that there were no WMD in Iraq. Bush, again as I recall, told them that they were wrong and we would prove it with the invasion.



Hans Blix specifically said at the time that the more he looked, the more doubt was cast on the Bush administration's claims. This was in late February, 2003. That's not what Bush wanted to hear, so he told the UN to pull the inspectors in mid-March.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/11/2009 12:03:02 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
doodoo-head?




Figurative language, RML.  I know.  Over your head.  Never mind.


Yes, I do keep forgetting how intellectually superior you are.

It must be such a great burden for you.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/11/2009 12:09:25 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

Well, RML, perhaps that is your perception because we also have a certain crop of left/liberal posters who will try to distract from the glaring errors of their own idiotic, uninformed, positions by demanding proof that the sky is blue, and then argue that since it is dark as often as light, and that some days are cloudy, the sky is statistisically blue less than half the time, and that therefore the sky is not blue and anyone who says it is is a Rush Limbaugh copycat and a doodoo-head. [ORIGINAL: TheHeretic




I would like to see a link or citation of any left leaning poster calling any of the Rush Limbaugh copycats a doodoo-head.




Oh, you're just being a pecker-head now, aren't you?


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/11/2009 5:30:21 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ust to touch on the WMD issue very quickly. I blame both the Clinton and Bush administrations for the weapons not being found. I would further suggest that those weapons most likely got smuggled out of the country during the inept breaks in inspections and with the porous borders. I do realize that speculation is simply that, my speculation. As for whether those weapons were there... we sold them to Iraq (during the Iraq-Iran war), we taught them how to make them, the madman used them on his own people. If there were no weapons in Iraq's possesion why didn't Suddam cooperate with the UN inspectors and get the sanctions and other restrictions lifted? Instead, the regime fought at every chance to prevent the inspections and or to prove the destruction of said weapons and related facilities. Sure, one could argue soveriegnty is the reason for the fight; but when it became obvious that we had elected a cowboy and he was going shooting indians....
ORIGINAL: Thadius



As I recall, Sadam did allow the UN to inspect to the point where the UN inspectors were satisfied that there were no WMD in Iraq. Bush, again as I recall, told them that they were wrong and we would prove it with the invasion.



Hans Blix specifically said at the time that the more he looked, the more doubt was cast on the Bush administration's claims. This was in late February, 2003. That's not what Bush wanted to hear, so he told the UN to pull the inspectors in mid-March.


Our own Government has since admitted that the information they gave to the Americans which provided a bit more evidence for Bush's claims about WMDs were all concocted to order by somebody in Whitehall and bear no resemblance to reality. It's been suggested that Blair was desperate to keep Bush happy at the time as the "independent nuclear deterrent" Trident was coming up for review again, but it hasn't been proven that was the main reason yet.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/11/2009 8:53:52 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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~FR~

" In April 1991, as part of the permanent cease-fire agreement ending the Persian Gulf War, the UN Security Council ordered Iraq to eliminate under international supervision its biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons programs, as well as its ballistic missiles with ranges greater than 150 kilometers. The Security Council declared that the comprehensive economic sanctions imposed in 1990 on Iraq after its invasion of Kuwait would remain in place until Baghdad had fully complied with its weapons requirements. "

"Baghdad agreed to these conditions but for eight years deceived, obstructed, and threatened international inspectors sent to dismantle and verify the destruction of its banned programs. This systematic Iraqi effort to conceal and obscure the true extent of its weapons of mass destruction programs began almost immediately, when Baghdad lied about the status of its programs in its initial declarations and obstructed an inspection team."

"Iraq continued to harass, hinder, and frustrate inspectors until late 1998, when the inspectors withdrew from Iraq just hours before the United States and the United Kingdom launched three days of military strikes against Iraq for its noncooperation. Since that time, Iraq has permitted only limited inspections of declared nuclear sites but has not yet allowed the return of intrusive inspections to verify that it has lived up to its commitment to get rid of its prohibited weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missile programs."

" Following is a year-by-year summary of major events in Iraq and an assessment of what arms inspectors accomplished and what remains undone in Iraq. "

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_10/iraqspecialoct02

Now for my comments:

Saddam was an effective liar. Once his WMD programs were severaly hampered, and almost eliminated; almost. Saddam did this so that his neighbors, which he had been at war with before, would believe that he still had WMD's, and they knew he was willing to use them. This was Saddam's strategy, and it was effective, in fact it was too effective.

Since Saddam had a history of lying about his weapons programs, combined with a history of interfering with inspectors, most world intelligence agencies gave a better than 70% chance (would have to do some digging to find that source again, so take it or leave it) of still either having WMD's or the capability to produce more. Whether he had them or not, he was in violation of the original cease-fire agreement that the Iraqi government signed. Whether this is justification for war, I do not, and did not then believe so.

The faulty, and fabricated intelligence the US used detracted from the fundamental, and factual basis that many countries considered Iraq a huge threat, and this included Arab and Muslim (there is a difference) neighbors. Were some WMD's or the manufacturing capability of WMD's moved out of the country before the last invasion? That is something I do not believe we will ever know, but some of the facts remain, and cannot be disputed.

I again state that none of this was a justification for all out war, but I do believe it would have been a justification for other military and possibly covert actions against his regime.

I am not sure what this has to do with the OP, but if it is going to be discussed, at least facts should be used.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/11/2009 10:20:12 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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Joined: 5/30/2006
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quote:

I am not sure what this has to do with the OP, but if it is going to be discussed, at least facts should be used.
ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf



Even if one accepts your reasoning, Orion, at the time war was begun, the UN investigators on the ground in Iraq had said that they did not believe that there were WMD present at the moment. The Bush administration claimed it had concrete proof that it did. Among other negative results of the decision to attack (a decision that has benefited Iran greatly, by the way) was the loss of credibility on  the world stage. It seems unarguable that either the Bush administrations lied to get us into a war they desired or were so grossly incompetent that a lie would almost have been preferable.


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have rad... - 10/11/2009 10:56:40 AM   
Moonhead


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They were lying. That's pretty well beyond doubt at this stage, and it's depressing that there's people who believe otherwise.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 120
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