RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them

RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 2:01:27 PM)
Did you even bother to look at that link? " Citing the lack of documentation and Iraq’s past incomplete and inadequate declarations on its biological weapons program, UNSCOM identified the key outstanding issue as nothing less than obtaining a full understanding of the scope of Iraq’s germ warfare efforts. This would require Iraq submitting a complete disclosure of its program and then having it verified by outside experts. " " UNSCOM cautioned that the material balances it had developed with regard to Iraq’s chemical weapons program were based on Iraqi declarations, which could not be fully verified. " " Iraq has not provided enough evidence to give UNSCOM confidence that all chemical weapons production equipment has been accounted for, particularly since Iraq successfully hid nearly 200 pieces of equipment for five years before UNSCOM discovered them. " It is not my reasoning, but my echoing the words of the facts from UNSCOM, and the opinions expressed by many of the largest intelligence agencies, not even including the US. Set aside the lie or faulty intelligence that was presented, and you are still left with many facts. That lie is a red herring when looking at the entire scope of the issue of the weapons inspections. quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: I am not sure what this has to do with the OP, but if it is going to be discussed, at least facts should be used. ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Even if one accepts your reasoning, Orion, at the time war was begun, the UN investigators on the ground in Iraq had said that they did not believe that there were WMD present at the moment. The Bush administration claimed it had concrete proof that it did. Among other negative results of the decision to attack (a decision that has benefited Iran greatly, by the way) was the loss of credibility on the world stage. It seems unarguable that either the Bush administrations lied to get us into a war they desired or were so grossly incompetent that a lie would almost have been preferable.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 2:41:32 PM)
But the problem is, that link is from October 2002. In February 2003, a month before the invasion, Blix stated very clearly that Iraq was making sincere attempts to comply and that the inspectors could find no evidence of WMD or an active WMD program. The report from 4 months earlier was no longer relevant, and any pretext for invasion that was based on that outdated report was no longer valid. Invading because Iraq had a history of non-compliance was not a justifiable action, and Bush knew it. He claimed that his justification was that Iraq was currently not in compliance, and that intelligence showed they currently had WMD and active WMD programs. Which, according to information that Hans Blix was making available at that time, was not true. How can you just "set aside the lie" when the lie was the entire justification for the invasion?

Moonhead -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 3:10:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda How can you just "set aside the lie" when the lie was the entire justification for the invasion? You can't. That doesn't stop people from trying, though.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 3:21:58 PM)
quote: How can you just "set aside the lie" when the lie was the entire justification for the invasion? ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda Yeah, what the Panda said. Seriously, the basic lie was not that Bush said he had suspicions that Sadam had WMD. He said, and had everyone from Colin Powell on down swear that he had proof. Since there were no WMD found, it seems logically unlikely that he had any proof that could be considered seriously. I also think that had he said "We are going to go to war because we think there are WMD there, he might have had a tougher time pushing this through.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 3:56:51 PM)
The link shows the timeline of events that led up to things. It is the source I provided that showed that Saddam had a very long history of not cooperating with the investigators, and lied multiple times. Kind of like when you know someone that repeatedly lies, you use their history to ascertain whether they are currently being truthful, see my sig line. How can I set aside the lie? It is easy because if you had read my entire initial post, I am not speaking about the justification of the invasion, as much as the series of events that led up before it. Looking at the entire series of events, is what led to many intelligence communities rating a high probability that Iraq either had WMD's or the capability to create them. Saddam's strategy of creating that mystique that they still had them was necessary for him to bluff his neighbors. That is how I can set aside the lie, because I am not speaking about a justification for the war. How many times does that have to be stated? quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda But the problem is, that link is from October 2002. In February 2003, a month before the invasion, Blix stated very clearly that Iraq was making sincere attempts to comply and that the inspectors could find no evidence of WMD or an active WMD program. The report from 4 months earlier was no longer relevant, and any pretext for invasion that was based on that outdated report was no longer valid. Invading because Iraq had a history of non-compliance was not a justifiable action, and Bush knew it. He claimed that his justification was that Iraq was currently not in compliance, and that intelligence showed they currently had WMD and active WMD programs. Which, according to information that Hans Blix was making available at that time, was not true. How can you just "set aside the lie" when the lie was the entire justification for the invasion?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 3:58:17 PM)
Do I need to start putting things in BOLD and upper case so that some of you do not miss things?

MarsBonfire -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 4:05:55 PM)
"The Proof" being of course, a few aireal photos of some semi trailer trucks that he claimed were some kind of mobile chemical weapons factories. I believe those were the ones they gave to Powell so they could make the case for the invasion. Then of course, we had all the rhetoric about how "the next smoking gun of terrorisim would come as a mushroom cloud." In the meantime, the yellowcake purchase from Nigeria lie was re-inserted into the State of the Union speech, (maybe Bush got his info about it from an email set to him by a woamn wanting to come over to the US to be his sex slave?) Even as his own intel experts were telling him that it was total bullshit! Remember when one of his advisors, three weeks before the actual invasion, went on the Daily Show, and told us ALL what a crock of bubbling shit Bush's case was? But... the GOP had it's mind set on attacking Iraq. They weren't going to let mere facts get in the way of their dream of building up a middle east that looked like "Leave it to Beaver" in the 1950's. And they had right wing radio and TV backing them up every step of the way. 4,500+ American dead. 38,000 wounded possibly up to 250,000 Iraqi civilians dead... and as many as 6,000,000 people forced from their homes and who had to flee to neighboring countries.

MstrssScarlet -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 4:31:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Do I need to start putting things in BOLD and upper case so that some of you do not miss things? You've made the ultimate mistake here. They smell conservatism in the water. Mistress Scarlet

tazzygirl -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 4:34:30 PM)
LOL Two huge differences. One.. its Master Orion, who has my upmost respect. and Two... Its Master Orion, who, in my opinion, has earned the respect on these boards. Besides, conservatism smells pretty good on a man. [;)]

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 5:15:51 PM)
Thanks tazzy. I have started seperating those that are part of a party, from those that are conservative or liberal (I do not see it as a bad word). There is a party line, and then there is what an independent conservative might think. One is lockstep, and the other is formulated from researching and reading many sources. I don't involve myself in much debate here, because it usually just degrades into the usual bickering between parties. I do read, and when something seems missed, such as the entire history of the inspection, rather than just a few months, I may decide to point that out. I try to have sources, but sometimes it is something read in print (yeah I know that is so outdated). Now back to the OP: I spent some time chatting with several people in country cafes, another barber shop, and a small retail store. I mentioned about a possible coup against Obama. I was not surprised that most seemed to either support or were apathetic to it. The reason I am not surprised is the amount of sheeple in this country. This occurred with some Dems during the last admin, and now it is kind of flipped around. I was proud that several good ole boys said they may not like him, but he was the President, and then discovered 3 of the 4 of them were ex-military and the other is a police officer.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 5:20:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The link shows the timeline of events that led up to things. It is the source I provided that showed that Saddam had a very long history of not cooperating with the investigators, and lied multiple times. Kind of like when you know someone that repeatedly lies, you use their history to ascertain whether they are currently being truthful, see my sig line. How can I set aside the lie? It is easy because if you had read my entire initial post, I am not speaking about the justification of the invasion, as much as the series of events that led up before it. Looking at the entire series of events, is what led to many intelligence communities rating a high probability that Iraq either had WMD's or the capability to create them. Saddam's strategy of creating that mystique that they still had them was necessary for him to bluff his neighbors. That is how I can set aside the lie, because I am not speaking about a justification for the war. How many times does that have to be stated? I got that point (or thought I got it) in your original post on this subject, but when you said this in Post #121 - quote: Set aside the lie or faulty intelligence that was presented, and you are still left with many facts. That lie is a red herring when looking at the entire scope of the issue of the weapons inspections. ...it sounded to me as though you were saying something completely different. And that was the post to which I was responding. For what it's worth, I agree completely with what you said in the original post. Just disagreed with the tack I though you were taking in the second one.

Thadius -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 5:21:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire "The Proof" being of course, a few aireal photos of some semi trailer trucks that he claimed were some kind of mobile chemical weapons factories. I believe those were the ones they gave to Powell so they could make the case for the invasion. Then of course, we had all the rhetoric about how "the next smoking gun of terrorisim would come as a mushroom cloud." In the meantime, the yellowcake purchase from Nigeria lie was re-inserted into the State of the Union speech, (maybe Bush got his info about it from an email set to him by a woamn wanting to come over to the US to be his sex slave?) Even as his own intel experts were telling him that it was total bullshit! Remember when one of his advisors, three weeks before the actual invasion, went on the Daily Show, and told us ALL what a crock of bubbling shit Bush's case was? But... the GOP had it's mind set on attacking Iraq. They weren't going to let mere facts get in the way of their dream of building up a middle east that looked like "Leave it to Beaver" in the 1950's. And they had right wing radio and TV backing them up every step of the way. 4,500+ American dead. 38,000 wounded possibly up to 250,000 Iraqi civilians dead... and as many as 6,000,000 people forced from their homes and who had to flee to neighboring countries. Kind of funny how that yellowcake "that was never there", got transported to Canada with help from the US and IAEA last year at the request of the Iraqui government... maybe they were really smuggling back tons of poppies? MSNBC Oh and get it right, the idea was to level Iraq and make it into a 24/7 Quickie Mart with enough pumps to handle the entire US military. As a jumping off point of course....[8\|]

Thadius -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 5:29:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Now back to the OP: I spent some time chatting with several people in country cafes, another barber shop, and a small retail store. I mentioned about a possible coup against Obama. I was not surprised that most seemed to either support or were apathetic to it. The reason I am not surprised is the amount of sheeple in this country. This occurred with some Dems during the last admin, and now it is kind of flipped around. I was proud that several good ole boys said they may not like him, but he was the President, and then discovered 3 of the 4 of them were ex-military and the other is a police officer. Evening Orion, I can relate to the last sentence you wrote here. I personally do not like the man, and really have no faith in many of his policies; but he is my president. As to the nutjobs that talk about a coup; President Obama has the best insurance policy any president I can think of in the past 100 years, just look at the 3 people next in the line of succession. I must also say that even with the way I feel about the president, I would take a bullet for him to save this nation from feeling the pain of losing another president. I wish you well, Thadius

SpinnerofTales -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 5:50:24 PM)
quote: You've made the ultimate mistake here. They smell conservatism in the water. Mistress Scarlet ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet Is THAT what I'm smelling? I thought someone had gotten a hold of some bad Mexican food.

servantforuse -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 5:58:11 PM)
I'd protect Obama to. Next in line is the village idiot Joe Biden. Next would be Nancy Pelosi.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 5:58:24 PM)
quote: Kind of funny how that yellowcake "that was never there", got transported to Canada with help from the US and IAEA last year at the request of the Iraqui government... maybe they were really smuggling back tons of poppies? ORIGINAL: Thadius If you'll check your own citation, you'll find the following: Israeli warplanes bombed a reactor project at the site in 1981. Later, U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said. The claim was made by the bush administration that this yellowcake was an impending or very recently completed transaction with Nigeria. There has been no corroboration of this claim. It seems to have been a flat out lie.

Thadius -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 6:12:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: Kind of funny how that yellowcake "that was never there", got transported to Canada with help from the US and IAEA last year at the request of the Iraqui government... maybe they were really smuggling back tons of poppies? ORIGINAL: Thadius If you'll check your own citation, you'll find the following: Israeli warplanes bombed a reactor project at the site in 1981. Later, U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said. The claim was made by the bush administration that this yellowcake was an impending or very recently completed transaction with Nigeria. There has been no corroboration of this claim. It seems to have been a flat out lie. Actually the documents that were the basis for that intelligence have been found to be forgeries (the ones regarding purchases from Nigeria). At least that is what I remember reading some time back. I just get a little frustrated when folks act as if there wasn't any there; know what I mean? Iraq did have it's own mine for gathering Uranium, and we bombed it pretty good in '91, however it wasn't dismantled until sometime in the mid to late 90's. Thanks for the catch on what date the officials claim the stuff was from, I didn't mean to neglect it or portray something else with my statement.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 6:22:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Do I need to start putting things in BOLD and upper case so that some of you do not miss things? You've made the ultimate mistake here. They smell conservatism in the water. Mistress Scarlet Oh, c'mon. Just about all of us have a great deal of respect for Orion. He's fairminded, intellectually honest, and shows a great deal of integrity in his views. He supports his positions, and takes ownership of what he says. Some of us just think he's wrong sometimes, and when we do, we disagree with him. It's got nothing to do with his conservatism.

Lucylastic -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 6:40:59 PM)
Man you guys really know how to make someone research stuff they really hadnt thought about before http://www.iaea.org/OurWork/SV/Invo/factsheet.html#indigenous http://crooksandliars.com/2008/07/06/yellowcake-uranium-found-in-iraq-bush-was-right-well-not-so-much http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article387374.ece altho with this lot I feel there are too many lies to be able to believe a normally "good source" Just spent more than an hour looking at this part of the topic, interesting stuff Lucy Happy Spanksgiving to all the canucks out there.

Thadius -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/11/2009 6:45:16 PM)
Tanks for the other sources Lucy. Have a great evenin.

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