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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/11/2009 4:01:09 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

So what is this thing, exactly? It feels a lot like slave including ownership, authority, and yes, grovelling at my feet but it isn't that. In the end, I'm settling on the idea that there's some phrase we don't have... something along the lines of "my mate" or "my woman" if you were to take out all the civilized finery from those words -- or, maybe more accurately, leave the civilized finery in but also add in a whole lot of very uncivilized and very not-fine meanings *laughs*.

I don't know. Just random musings as I sort this out in my head. I will probably continue to use the word "slave" in BDSM contexts mostly because I think it gets someone's head in the right general direction. Heh, in the end though, I'm starting to wonder if there wasn't some point in the distant past when the phrase I would be searching for would be "my wife". God, that thought is just so gorean that I feel like I need to take a shower now but there it is all the same. Maybe we just over-civilized a very old and very natural thing.


I totally get this post. To be honest I am of the opinion that many modern "wives" aren't wives at all, nor are their "husbands" really husbands. To my eyes, many modern marriages seem like two single people who've legally combined finances and enjoy having sex. In other words the fact that they're married hasn't changed any aspect of their personality besides their legal status.

Nothing wrong with that of course, but it's not the *only* meaning of 'my wife.' I'll give the example of my fiance's parents - they're not even remotely into bdsm (as far as I know lol) but he's the master of the house and she defers to him. He's the provider, she's the maintainer. It really is a natural relationship, in my opinion. Men want to go out and conquer and provide things. Women want a safe spot to raise their children and put down roots (even those women who don't want children still have an evolutionary urge to settle down) and before we did become so "liberated" there was a tacit agreement of "I'll give you a safe space, a place to settle down, but only if you accept me as the ruler of this space and submit to my leadership."

I think the biggest issue is how Carol feels about it. My fiance and I have a traditional sort of relationship (not a TPE one, more like a 50's household that's heading in the steampunk/victorian direction if we meet a slave we'd like to take in) and while I do defer to him, for me at least the word 'slave' turns me off. A lot. We like to joke that hearing 'slave' will turn me into a banshee and hearing 'princess' will make me curl up at his feet. Ironic, huh? But I also love 'wife' and 'husband' because in *my* eyes, those words mean something similar to what they meant 200+ years ago. When he says 'my wife' the emphasis is on 'my' - the 'wife' part only clarifies what bit of 'his' I am.

If she likes being called slave and you like calling her that, then you've claimed the word for yourselves. If one of you is less enthusiastic about it, well, there are a lot of words in the dictionary. You'll find one that suits you. Until then, something tells me "My beautiful woman" will suffice in the interim.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/11/2009 4:05:14 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		Jeff, I think you have 'great process', as an individual, & that you & Carol have a great process that you've worked out over a long period of time for your relationship. I have quite a bit of faith in the power of process to get us thru rough spots.

I've been puzzling at what to chip into these threads, mostly cuz there's so many wise minds around here that there's very little left to say, but mostly because I've gotten the sense from what I've read of your postings, that you really have worked at your competence, both of you, in general, as human beings. & that kinda thing tells over the long term.

I guess, mostly, I can just say that I have a lot of faith in both of your abilities to express the wonderful humans that you are, over the long run. You both seek after growth & excellence, & it shows, even at this distance .. . . . .



Henry, thank you, I appreciate you saying . . . . .

[/humility]

I thought there was some solid construction built into it . . . ..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Labels are sorta like street signs to get us in the general direction of where the house is located, but not very descriptive of what any one home is.


Nicely said! I will store it for later use.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Isaac:

The problem is Kia when the street signs can be redirected at will to lead one to an entirely different neighborhood. Then of course there's the crowd who doesn't want any street signs at all.


Isaac, metaphors, like labels, have severe limitations. You're kinda like a 'no-limits' fora debater when it comes to labels & metaphors, now that I think about it.

For me, when the metaphor fails I don't ascribe that to a problem of the underlying thing being described via the metaphor.

But of course, Isaac, I'm just prattling on & on about my tripe, gettin' all pissy, nothing whatsoever to do with your fabulous rhetorical skills (hey, Jeff, you & me, we're offal interlocuters, I guess, lol)

Oh, & Isaac, Missokyst? She's my local fearless munch leader, jus' fyi . . . . . . & cuz I'm gonna be chuckling over the grand Ironist who rules my universe & brings such wonders to my life . . . . . .

Apologies, Jeff. [/threadjacking]

< Message edited by DemonKia -- 10/11/2009 4:12:16 PM >

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/11/2009 5:40:45 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Jeff, I have no doubt that between you and Carol, you will sort something suitable out. My best to both of you. 

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/11/2009 5:43:35 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I have a friend whose Master simply states her label as "mine." I think its HOT lol. IT takes so much pressure off of her to try and be a label of general understanding and instead she can simply concentrate on HIM.

Also, what many people don't get in Gor there is more than just defnition of the relationship as a specific concept that is at play -- there is also social status that makes the distinction of what is a slave a focal point. Take out the social status among the general population and slave is not one fits all in the privacy of a relationship.


I'm confused about the social status comment. Do you mean that Goreans have a class system and there are upper class slaves and lower class slaves? And upper and lower masters?

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/11/2009 5:56:52 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Jeff.... it's hardly surprizing that the word slave fails in so many ways to identify the full context of your thoughts and feelings of Carol. In fact... I find that words themselves are a cheap substitute to taking action that demonstrate those feelings and thoughts we have. I "Love" my two girls intensely.... but even as I type that word it fails to me to communicate the full intensity of those thoughts and feelings I have for my two. They say picture is worth a thousand words.... but what is an act of love or devotion worth ? A million? I am thinking it is priceless that no words can ever capture in it's entirety. I stop long ago chasing words to describe or identify who we are..... We just do it.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 10/11/2009 5:58:10 PM >

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/11/2009 8:34:39 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I have a friend whose Master simply states her label as "mine." I think its HOT lol. IT takes so much pressure off of her to try and be a label of general understanding and instead she can simply concentrate on HIM.

Also, what many people don't get in Gor there is more than just defnition of the relationship as a specific concept that is at play -- there is also social status that makes the distinction of what is a slave a focal point. Take out the social status among the general population and slave is not one fits all in the privacy of a relationship.


I'm confused about the social status comment. Do you mean that Goreans have a class system and there are upper class slaves and lower class slaves? And upper and lower masters?


In Gorean philosophy all slaves are of a lower class, and free men and women are of a higher class. Slaves have no rights, and they have to address all free people as "master" or "mistress" to show that they are socially beneath them.

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/11/2009 10:02:00 PM   
SimplyIsaac


Posts: 376
Joined: 12/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Well if you have been around that long, it seems you would have a better grasp of the situation.


Orion, please show me your evidence that I do not have a good grasp of the Jeff/Carol saga. I await your analysis.

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/11/2009 10:15:11 PM   
SimplyIsaac


Posts: 376
Joined: 12/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

For me, when the metaphor fails I don't ascribe that to a problem of the underlying thing being described via the metaphor.


Well of course not. And who said the metaphor failed? Metaphors help express a truth through non-literal illustration. My comment was making a further point through use of your (good) metaphor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
Oh, & Isaac, Missokyst? She's my local fearless munch leader, jus' fyi . . . . . . & cuz I'm gonna be chuckling over the grand Ironist who rules my universe & brings such wonders to my life . . .


I could care less about inclusion in your social circle, Kia. Please don't make the mistake of thinking I offer praise merely to suck up to others. Perhaps assuming such a thing says more about your way of thinking than it does about me.

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/11/2009 10:54:26 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		Check this out, Isaac.

Leadership asked this thread to die, & I'm gonna respect that. That last post of mine, the one you're replying to, went up nearly simultaneous with his requesting that this thread not turn into some argument-fest that has nothing to do with what he was asking in his OP.

& I'm more than willing to comply with his reasonable request. So, if you wanna bicker with me you'll have to come find me on other threads.

However, I do have something cooking for the foot-worship thread, so don't feel too let down, lol . . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

For me, when the metaphor fails I don't ascribe that to a problem of the underlying thing being described via the metaphor.


Well of course not. And who said the metaphor failed? Metaphors help express a truth through non-literal illustration. My comment was making a further point through use of your (good) metaphor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
Oh, & Isaac, Missokyst? She's my local fearless munch leader, jus' fyi . . . . . . & cuz I'm gonna be chuckling over the grand Ironist who rules my universe & brings such wonders to my life . . .


I could care less about inclusion in your social circle, Kia. Please don't make the mistake of thinking I offer praise merely to suck up to others. Perhaps assuming such a thing says more about your way of thinking than it does about me.



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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/11/2009 11:13:29 PM   
SimplyIsaac


Posts: 376
Joined: 12/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
Check this out, Isaac.
Leadership asked this thread to die, & I'm gonna respect that.


Cool beans Kia.

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/11/2009 11:27:07 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

Maybe we just over-civilized a very old and very natural thing.


I've been trying to explain this for years.

I grew up in an area where the word "wife" pretty much covered what we call "d/s" around these parts. Man is head of the household, king of his domain and his wife surrenders and submits because her husband is a strong leader and there is a love found there that makes her want to give over that control to him.

I think around these parts we try to make it seem more extreme, somehow unique and different when in reality..it's not. We've just forgotten it.


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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/12/2009 4:17:28 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Slave makes an artificial distinction/barrier between the two of you.
It is interesting to think about some of the things posted here, but if it screws with your head, then you are in trouble.


Nice rhetoric, but not very helpful.

Intellectual laziness can interfere with living your life just as much as intellectualizing too much.




Nice rhetoric, but not very helpful.


Speaking in platitudes was evidence enough the parrot icon fit, but this contribution seals the deal.




As did yours.

If you had been around longer you would realise that Jeff spends a lot of time thinking about his relationship with Carol. And perhaps a little less thinking would be in order. Carol has issues with the term "slave" , and the same advice applies to her!

and don't knock the icon - the icon is cute!


Yes, it is

"Slave" is an exciting term, but I don't believe it really exists, as I define the word. No biggie if others use it, it's not like there's a law against it.

"Mine" works better, IMO, and I like "servant" as well, and you can indeed just use "wife", as long as the both of you know what that entails.

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Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/12/2009 10:40:54 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		If Jeff intended the thread to die, I'll offer My apologies.

I use various terms for clip, depending on where I am in the way I'm thinking and feeling.  As we're transitioning more from D/s into M/s, I'm finding that I'm calling him My boy more than anything else.  A lot of people don't like that particular term applied to them, so I wouldn't advise it for everybody.  Somehow, sub isn't quite cutting it and I'm not quite at the point of saying My slave yet.  I kind of find that last part funny because he's already comfortable with that term for himself and I'm the one lagging.

Depending on My mindset, it's also been My property, My slut, My lil one, and a number of other things.  Each of them applied to the place I'm coming from.

The one you folks will very rarely, if ever see, will be My calling him My second husband.  It just doesn't come from there for Me.


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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/12/2009 10:45:12 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
The one you folks will very rarely, if ever see, will be My calling him My second husband.  It just doesn't come from there for Me.



and clearly husband holds something significant for you..... while the term wife... well... it's rather sterile to me and lacks any emotional attachment. It' role that Alandra plays... but I don't see it as a part of her personality or part of our dynamic. But.. then again.... I am not really concerned or focused on thems... but the interactions that occur! Those to me are much more important than what we might label those that do them.


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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/12/2009 10:59:27 AM   
SimplyIsaac


Posts: 376
Joined: 12/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

"Slave" is an exciting term, but I don't believe it really exists, as I define the word. No biggie if others use it, it's not like there's a law against it.

"Mine" works better, IMO, and I like "servant" as well, and you can indeed just use "wife", as long as the both of you know what that entails.


Agreed. I'm not so sure about the word "slave" being impossible to reach, but it's rare to do so. Being subject to and wholly controlled by another (mind, body and spirit) is no small thing in my view. "Mine" and "servant" probably are far better terms.

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/12/2009 11:28:41 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		~fast reply~

I don't know how useful my comments are going to be on this. As many folks here know (you included, Jeff), I stopped using the term "slave" a good bit back. I stopped because, to me, the term just didn't seem to be a good fit with the way I saw the relationships I was in. Now we use the terms Keeper and servant. Our situation is a little bit different. Not every interaction we have in our household has romance or even -sex- in it, and I'm funny about the word "love"... I won't use it until it really -fits- the package of things that -I- put into that word... so your situation, where you have a single relationship that is man/wife, companions, and authority-exchange all wrapped up in one would probably not suit how we label folks in our household.

I like the term Keeper -- it implies a sense of acquisitiveness, and of holding on to something and assuring its safety and protection -- but also having it under my control, lock, and key.

We use the term 'servant' mostly because it is a neutral term that keeps disagreements from cropping up about which of those we keep are "more dedicated" or "more submissive" or "give up more" or whatever -- whether the disagreement happens on the Keeper end or on the servant end. We decided the debate wasn't moving our household forward, so we nipped it in the bud and just declared "servant" as the new standard. Some folks feel that the term 'servant' is too cold and clinical to be satisfactory, but in my mind, the designation always carries images like Alfred (Bruce Wayne/Batman's butler), and Mr. French (A Family Affair). I consider a person who becomes a servant in our household to, essentially, be part of the family -- Alice (The Brady Bunch) also comes to mind. The place wouldn't be the same without them -- yes, much of what they do revolves around taking care of the family... but the -way- they do it, and the personality that shines through the work they do leaves us -anything- but 'cold'.

I guess, in the end, what I'm saying is that, regardless of the terminology you use, what matters is how the dynamic plays out on a day-to-day basis. I don't know if Carol is your "slave" -- frankly, to me, the designation doesn't really seem satisfactory to either of you. The thing is, it is a placeholder phrase... so when you -do- find a word that best describes what your relationship is shaped from, then I'm sure you'll happily embrace it. Until then, don't fret too much about definitions used for little more than to facilitate communication, unless they're tangling that conversation up in knots... in which case, sometimes letting go of one end of the tangle can make a world of difference.

Dame Calla


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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/12/2009 12:44:00 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		My paternal grandfather wasn't the head of the household in any traditional sense. They owned and operated a business together all their life. My grandmother was better at money so she made those decisions. She also did the client contact, he operated in the back room. Things relating to what needed to be done around the house, she made the list. He decided how the work should be done. Cars were entirely his provision.

By Elisabella's definition they were two separate people who had sex legally and who shared finances. But it didn't work that way by their definition.

I point this out to show how incorrect it is to make judgments for other people. The only people who can decide how things operate in a marriage are those in it.

I'm getting more and more fond of the biblical helpmeet as a label myself. Partly because there isn't so much outside definition attached to it.

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/12/2009 1:16:01 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Maybe we just over-civilized a very old and very natural thing.



Maybe, for someone who wrote in another thread:

"So apparently Carol and I have reached an critical juncture in our relationship... Carol, for the first time, is seriously questioning
 
a) Whether it is good for her to be my slave (as I define it)
b) Whether my leadership is good, in general.
c) Whether she wants to be a slave or not.
 
I'm not entirely sure what's going on or why..."  <--- Key Line Here

So MAYBE, for someone who's stated his relationship is in such a state that your "slave" doesn't even know if she wants to submit to you any longer, you should be spending far LESS time online pondering such insignificant things, and far MORE time with your wife trying to figure out "what's going on or why" to salvage your VERY REAL relationship versus carrying on like this... post after post... about someone who doesn't even know if she wants to submit to you any longer.

That would seem the priority... and likely the reason you're "not entirely sure what's going on or why". In fact, MAYBE... JUST MAYBE IT'S TIME TO TAKE A BREAK FROM THESE STUPID BOARDS AND TALK TO YOUR WIFE, GET INTO COUNSELING, OR WHATEVER NEEDS TO BE DONE TO RESOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS!!!  Personally, if my other was constantly blabbering on these boards about us, it would nauseate me to no end; or worse, leave me thinking them insecure as hell. 

And NO, I'm not trying to be mean here in any way... just think maybe it's time to focus less on the fake world of these boards and focus more on the real world of your marriage. 

Good Luck.


< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 10/12/2009 1:18:02 PM >

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RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/12/2009 1:46:57 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		LP, I think it was more that he didn't want it to get side-tracked way off the topic & consumed uselessly in sniping bickering stuff ... . Discussing alternate names for this role we sometimes call 'slave' seems to be the topic at hand . . . . .

Personally, I want minions. Devoted, slavish minions . . . . . (I'd be ever so much better to them than the evil geniuses in the movies; I promise never to let my minions get blown up in my secret hideaway -- we'll have an evacuation plan!)

lol

Anyways, I dug out the thesaurus & started looking at relatively equivalent terms:

serf, vassal, thrall; bondsman, bondswoman; drudge, servant, lackey, minion; gofer; devotee, worshiper, adherent; fan, lover, aficionado; fanatic, freak, nut, addict . . . .


I liked 'devotee', so I followed that & added these (duplicates removed):

enthusiast, admirer; buff, bum, fiend, maniac; follower, supporter, advocate, disciple, votary, member, stalwart, zealot; believer.

I guess my point is that there are something on the order of 300,000 to 500,000 words in the English language. Getting hung up on any one of them oughta be justified with that word being really, terribly, humongously important.

I can't believe no one wants the thrill of a thrall, that any could begrudge a drudge . . . . .

Words are supposed to work for us, not the other way 'round . . . . .

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Is Carol my slave? - 10/12/2009 2:16:39 PM   
alittleevil


Posts: 235
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
Personally, I want minions. ...

Anyways, I dug out the thesaurus & started looking at relatively equivalent terms:

serf, vassal, thrall; bondsman, bondswoman; drudge, servant, lackey, minion; gofer; devotee, worshiper, adherent; fan, lover, aficionado; fanatic, freak, nut, addict . . . .



Hello,
I have always kind of liked thrall.  It's quite apt.

Best,
aj


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Profile   Post #: 60
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