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RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 7:45:28 PM

Elisabella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

Thank you for that quotation, Elisabella. You didn't, however, address the point I raised: that men doing the SAME job as a woman tend to earn more. Once again, you obfuscate. Please explain why it is fair that a man doing the SAME job, under the same circumstances, should be paid more. Is it because he has a dick? Does that mean that male nurses with larger dicks should be paid more than male nurses with smaller dicks? Or could it possibly be that women are still being discriminated against simply because they are women?

As far as your being a feminist, I know you aren't one, even a badly disguised one, but you seem to have convinced some of the more gullible on this board that you might be a warm, fuzzy feminist, something that I find rather frightening. If you're a feminist, we're all screwed.

If I convinced anyone I was a feminist on this thread I don't see how. I've specifically referred to myself as an antifeminist numerous times.

As far as men in the same job making more than women I think that can be explained by the disparity in hours worked, as well as the fact that men tend to be more aggressive than women in asking for a raise or promotion.

"A university study of 40 employees found that men are more likely to ask for things when they want them – AND they are more likely to get what they ask for. Of the 20 women, only one asked for a raise when first offered a job. She was granted the hike in salary. Of the 20 men, 18 of them asked for a raise and all 18 were given it."
http://www.advancingwomen.com/glass-ceiling2/Is_Your_Glass_Ceiling_Half_Empty_or_Half_Full.html

(in reply to Venatrix)

Post #: 321

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 7:49:36 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
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Also this might help explain it:
"Fairness is another example. Research by Brenda Major and others back in the 1970s used procedures like this. A group of subjects would perform a task, and the experimenter would then say that the group had earned a certain amount of money, and it was up to one member to divide it up however he or she wanted. The person could keep all the money, but that wasn’t usually what happened. Women would divide the money equally, with an equal share for everybody. Men, in contrast, would divide it unequally, giving the biggest share of reward to whoever had done the most work."
http://denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm

Which would imply a man would be more likely to take credit alone, while a woman would be more likely to bring up her assistant's contributions.

And this:

"It's not that women are less effective or productive--they just have different priorities. A 2001 survey of business owners with M.B.A.s conducted by the Rochester Institute of Technology found that money was the primary motivator for only 29% of women, versus 76% of men. Women prioritized flexibility, fulfillment, autonomy and safety."
http://www.forbes.com/2006/05/12/women-wage-gap-cx_wf_0512earningmore.html

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 10/26/2009 7:51:34 PM >

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 322

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 7:56:58 PM

Venatrix

Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
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Oh, for heaven's sake, it's pointless trying to have a reasonable discourse with you: you bring up a survey of a whopping 40 people, and another one that was done in the 1970s to prove your points. Not that your opinions had any credibility to start with, but this only proves it.

Edited to add: You STILL didn't answer my question.

< Message edited by Venatrix -- 10/26/2009 7:57:47 PM >

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 323

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 7:58:05 PM

pyroaquatic

Posts: 1535
Joined: 12/4/2006
From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

As far as men in the same job making more than women I think that can be explained by the disparity in hours worked, as well as the fact that men tend to be more aggressive than women in asking for a raise or promotion.

"A university study of 40 employees found that men are more likely to ask for things when they want them – AND they are more likely to get what they ask for. Of the 20 women, only one asked for a raise when first offered a job. She was granted the hike in salary. Of the 20 men, 18 of them asked for a raise and all 18 were given it."
http://www.advancingwomen.com/glass-ceiling2/Is_Your_Glass_Ceiling_Half_Empty_or_Half_Full.html

I tend to be the opposite of aggressive. Does that make me a womanz?

So what are you saying Lisabell.... women should grow some balls?

Yes you are intelligent but like myself you have a difficult time being understood. What are you actually trying to say!!!!!! Clear and concise and with precision, please.

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(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 324

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:02:11 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

Oh, for heaven's sake, it's pointless trying to have a reasonable discourse with you: you bring up a survey of a whopping 40 people, and another one that was done in the 1970s to prove your points. Not that your opinions had any credibility to start with, but this only proves it.

Edited to add: You STILL didn't answer my question.

Your question was, if I read it right, why do men and women who work the same job make different salaries?

I gave three plausible answers:

1. Men are more likely than women to ask for a promotion or raise
2. Men work an average of 45 hours per week while women work an average of 42 hours per week
3. 76% of men see money as a primary career motivator compared to 29% of women.

The survey I gave re: point 1 may or may not be representative of the whole, but you can't say the survey numbers actually disproves the hypothesis.

ETA:
"Also disturbing is that women often aren't even bothering to ask for more money, according to Babcock. She notes women are 2.5 times more likely than men to say they feel "a great deal of apprehension" about negotiating, and they tend to undervalue their work more than men.

She found women's salary expectations are up to 32 percent lower than the expectations of men in the same job. And when women do ask for money, Babcock's research suggests, they tend to ask for and get less money than their male counterparts."
http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/03/commentary/everyday/sahadi/

If you have any research to show the opposite, that demonstrates women and men ask for raises and promotions with the same frequency, go ahead and post it.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 10/26/2009 8:07:48 PM >

(in reply to Venatrix)

Post #: 325

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:03:13 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

As far as men in the same job making more than women I think that can be explained by the disparity in hours worked, as well as the fact that men tend to be more aggressive than women in asking for a raise or promotion.

"A university study of 40 employees found that men are more likely to ask for things when they want them – AND they are more likely to get what they ask for. Of the 20 women, only one asked for a raise when first offered a job. She was granted the hike in salary. Of the 20 men, 18 of them asked for a raise and all 18 were given it."
http://www.advancingwomen.com/glass-ceiling2/Is_Your_Glass_Ceiling_Half_Empty_or_Half_Full.html

I tend to be the opposite of aggressive. Does that make me a womanz?

So what are you saying Lisabell.... women should grow some balls?

Yes you are intelligent but like myself you have a difficult time being understood. What are you actually trying to say!!!!!! Clear and concise and with precision, please.

Clear and concise in the post above this one, pyraquat. ;)

(in reply to pyroaquatic)

Post #: 326

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:12:54 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aidan

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Then, you are a feminist, Elisabella.
[...]
In general, I don't believe that you're at all clear about who you're attacking when you set yourself against feminism as a whole!

No. Dude, just...no.

She's made it very clear that she is clear on who her enemies are, and that she is avowedly not a feminist. It is okay for her to make the "choice" to be a classical subservient female, but gods forbid that there be a social apparatus or status quo that allows for their to be viable alternatives to that model for anybody else.

And Elisabella, as to not wanting Shakti, me and people like us in the camps...well, yeah, maybe not directly, but you only need look at the company you keep on your side of things. I don't think your masters will be too kind to me and mine if they get the upper hand.

But don't worry, we'll make sure you can have your lifestyle of choice in your own privacy. We're just making sure the rest of civilization doesn't have to live the same way.

Who are 'my masters?' Please don't tell me you assume I'm a republican. Because I am SO not a republican and I am really sick of people assuming I am because I value traditional roles.

Comparing me to a nazi woman would be no different than me comparing you to a Stalinist or Maoist. One side takes conservatism way too far, the other side takes neo-liberalism way too far.

Maybe you'll send me for political re-education? If your masters get their way?

*facepalm*

(in reply to aidan)

Post #: 327

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:19:02 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aidan

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Then, you are a feminist, Elisabella.
[...]
In general, I don't believe that you're at all clear about who you're attacking when you set yourself against feminism as a whole!

No. Dude, just...no.

She's made it very clear that she is clear on who her enemies are, and that she is avowedly not a feminist. It is okay for her to make the "choice" to be a classical subservient female, but gods forbid that there be a social apparatus or status quo that allows for their to be viable alternatives to that model for anybody else.

And Elisabella, as to not wanting Shakti, me and people like us in the camps...well, yeah, maybe not directly, but you only need look at the company you keep on your side of things. I don't think your masters will be too kind to me and mine if they get the upper hand.

But don't worry, we'll make sure you can have your lifestyle of choice in your own privacy. We're just making sure the rest of civilization doesn't have to live the same way.

No. She's a 'conservative feminist', without any doubt in my mind. She's plainly only just come across the term. She thanked me for a link that anyone would have come across if they'd ever, even once, investigated the term. On her blog it's clear that she typifies feminism by the most extreme of its radicals. She's not clear what feminism is.

I think there's a certain amount of truth in her comment that 'most women my age don't identify as feminists'. I've seen this often enough. The problem here is propaganda - consistent, relentless sneering at adherents of a cause. In this way 'feminist' became a dirty word. The aim of the propagandists is to get people to chuck the baby out with the bathwater. Thus, all feminists are just as loopy as Andrea Dworkin, infamous for her 'all men are potential rapists'. Who could trust such a person, no matter what she says? 'Men and women don't receive equal pay - that battle's still to be won' - well, that view comes from a feminist, and we all know that they're all just like Andrea Dworkin . . . So goes the argument.

ShaktiSama says, "Conservative feminism" is just a ploy to market anti-feminism to women who have to work for a living. The appeal to male supremacist ideology in the "men are different and better" section is a dead giveaway that there's nothing truly progressive or egalitarian intended.

My view is that conservative feminism is crap, but for a different reason. It's bought into by people who 'are all right Jack, now pull up the ladder'. It fails to realise what work there is still to do. It also fails to understand that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance . . . that whatever emancipation has been achieved needs to be defended against new attacks that come in different forms.

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(in reply to aidan)

Post #: 328

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:19:43 PM

Lucienne

Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

If you have any research to show the opposite, that demonstrates women and men ask for raises and promotions with the same frequency, go ahead and post it.

Someone (sorry, forgot whom) mentioned earlier the idea that it's too easy to avoid digging into deeper causes. Accepting your research as true, women not asking for raises and promotions doesn't mean that women aren't providing equal value in the workplace. The failure to push for raises and promotions is just as likely (if not more so) attributable to cultural conditioning than biological factors.

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 329

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:25:57 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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Peon, in fairness to Elisabella, she did say some of the things in the link you posted were 'iffy' to her, before you denied her (tried to take away from her) her right to say whatever she associates herself as.

God, Louve. Is that all I need to do to take away a woman's right? Just as well that women have got feminism, then - and that Elisabella's got enough feminism in her to stop me, too!

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(in reply to Louve00)

Post #: 330

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:30:08 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

No. She's a 'conservative feminist', without any doubt in my mind. She's plainly only just come across the term. She thanked me for a link that anyone would have come across if they'd ever, even once, investigated the term. On her blog it's clear that she typifies feminism by the most extreme of its radicals. She's not clear what feminism is.

I think there's a certain amount of truth in her comment that 'most women my age don't identify as feminists'. I've seen this often enough. The problem here is propaganda - consistent, relentless sneering at adherents of a cause. In this way 'feminist' became a dirty word. The aim of the propagandists is to get people to chuck the baby out with the bathwater. Thus, all feminists are just as loopy as Andrea Dworkin, infamous for her 'all men are potential rapists'. Who could trust such a person, no matter what she says? 'Men and women don't receive equal pay - that battle's still to be won' - well, that view comes from a feminist, and we all know that they're all just like Andrea Dworkin . . . So goes the argument.

ShaktiSama says, "Conservative feminism" is just a ploy to market anti-feminism to women who have to work for a living. The appeal to male supremacist ideology in the "men are different and better" section is a dead giveaway that there's nothing truly progressive or egalitarian intended.
My view is that conservative feminism is crap, but for a different reason. It's bought into by people who 'are all right Jack, now pull up the ladder'. It fails to realise what work there is still to do. It also fails to understand that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance . . . that whatever emancipation has been achieved needs to be defended against new attacks that come in different forms.

Well I am definitely hesitant to identify with a label I did only just now learn, and some of that site seemed a bit too conservative for me (I used to be very pro-life but now I'm a lot more unsure about that position, I'm against mandatory sentencing in ANY case, and I'm not sure about having more loyalty to women in general than to my husband) and I'm sort of hesitant to identify as a feminist because of posts like Venatrix who would basically say "no you're not a feminist because you're not a mainstream feminist."

But I do see a lot of myself in that site. So I guess I'd say that I wouldn't call myself a conservative feminist but at this point I wouldn't argue with someone who thought I was one.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 331

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:33:23 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

If you have any research to show the opposite, that demonstrates women and men ask for raises and promotions with the same frequency, go ahead and post it.

Someone (sorry, forgot whom) mentioned earlier the idea that it's too easy to avoid digging into deeper causes. Accepting your research as true, women not asking for raises and promotions doesn't mean that women aren't providing equal value in the workplace. The failure to push for raises and promotions is just as likely (if not more so) attributable to cultural conditioning than biological factors.

This could be true...but I don't know if that necessarily makes it a sexism thing. I mean I really can't imagine a woman like Shakti or Aynne or Andalusite being hesitant to ask for a raise if they feel they truly deserve one.

The Denis Dutton article I linked to above demonstrates that most human weaknesses are just the flipside of strengths. Which makes me wonder if the majority of women were as competitive and aggressive as the majority of men, what would we *lose* in return for that?

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 332

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:41:20 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Peon, in fairness to Elisabella, she did say some of the things in the link you posted were 'iffy' to her, before you denied her (tried to take away from her) her right to say whatever she associates herself as.

God, Louve. Is that all I need to do to take away a woman's right? Just as well that women have got feminism, then - and that Elisabella's got enough feminism in her to stop me, too!

*laughs*

That's what I find funny about this whole thread - all the accusations of me being some weak willed dishrag who bows to the will of men and wants my gender to submit to your gender, yet I've argued with quite a few men on this thread and considering we're at 17 pages now I think that kinda shows I'm not just a nod-and-agree type of person.

I'm perfectly capable of making my own choices and having my own sociopolitical beliefs...not only do I not need a man to tell me what to believe but I've broken up with quite a few men because they weren't the type of man I like. My beliefs came first - the man who fit into them only came recently.

Is it really so hard to believe that a woman would be against a doctrine that the genders are identical?

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 333

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:43:25 PM

Arrogance

Posts: 185
Joined: 7/29/2009
Status: offline

This thread has really jumped the shark... a while ago.

Oh... and at least Elisa doesn't capitalize the "m" in "men" like some of the Gor ilk do. I think that's a positive thing EVERYONE can agree on.

Come on guys, look at the glass as half-full!

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 334

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:53:38 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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Actually a lot of what I am seeing is really full.

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Post #: 335

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:53:39 PM

GoDolphins

Posts: 78
Joined: 3/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arrogance

This thread has really jumped the shark... a while ago.

I think this is the most accurate statement made here for a while.

I disagree with you on the glass being half full though. I think it was broken and spilled a while back.

< Message edited by GoDolphins -- 10/26/2009 8:55:14 PM >

(in reply to Arrogance)

Post #: 336

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 8:53:52 PM

KITTYLECTRO

Posts: 261
Joined: 10/26/2009
Status: offline

I used to have a friend who dated a girl who happened to be a cheerleader. From what she told me she liked it at first when she was younger, but as years progressed she found it to be demeaning and at odds with her growing 'feminist sensibilities'. Eventually she left the cheerleader squad, started dyeing her hair black, and acquired some tattoos.

A few years later I happened to run into her and she was wearing red Dr Martens boots with white laces, red suspenders, her hair was cropped into a Chelsea haircut and she was slathered with tattoos of Iron Crosses, white horses, and such.

Yes, it's true, she quit being a cheerleader and quickly became a fascist instead.

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(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 337

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 9:09:01 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Well I am definitely hesitant to identify with a label I did only just now learn

Elisabella, this is making me tear my hair out. If you've only just heard of conservative feminism, what other forms of feminism have you yet to come across? How you can set yourself up against something that you don't understand?

And this is even worse . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Peon, in fairness to Elisabella, she did say some of the things in the link you posted were 'iffy' to her, before you denied her (tried to take away from her) her right to say whatever she associates herself as.

God, Louve. Is that all I need to do to take away a woman's right? Just as well that women have got feminism, then - and that Elisabella's got enough feminism in her to stop me, too!

quote:

*laughs*

That's what I find funny about this whole thread - all the accusations of me being some weak willed dishrag who bows to the will of men and wants my gender to submit to your gender, yet I've argued with quite a few men on this thread and considering we're at 17 pages now I think that kinda shows I'm not just a nod-and-agree type of person..

No, you're evidently not a weak-willed dishrag. But surely, surely you can see which was - and remains - the main social/political movement that helps you to be that way?

quote:

Is it really so hard to believe that a woman would be against a doctrine that the genders are identical?

It isn't. Feminism does not say that the genders are identical, no matter how much its looney opponents want to convince us all that it does.

As a by-the-way - why are you arguing with me? I'm male, thus more aggressive than you are. You're bound to lose. Or am I, and will you?

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 10/26/2009 9:17:43 PM >

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Post #: 338

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 9:49:34 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Well I am definitely hesitant to identify with a label I did only just now learn

Elisabella, this is making me tear my hair out. If you've only just heard of conservative feminism, what other forms of feminism have you yet to come across? How you can set yourself up against something that you don't understand?

I'm against the feminism of people like Shakti who feel that people like me and my fiance shouldn't advocate our own beliefs about how the world should be. I'm against all the posts that say "do what you want in your own home but don't try to validate your beliefs by making them a part of society."

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

No, you're evidently not a weak-willed dishrag. But surely, surely you can see which was - and remains - the main social/political movement that helps you to be that way?

I think there are millions of women throughout history, from Cleopatra to Ninon de Lenclos, who were strong and independent before feminism was even heard of.

Surely you don't think that pre-Victorian women were all weak minded submissives with no voice or opinions. Men might have been considered the 'head of household' back then but women were the neck - the ones who were able to turn the head right or left.

quote:

quote:

Is it really so hard to believe that a woman would be against a doctrine that the genders are identical?

It isn't. Feminism does not say that the genders are identical, no matter how much its looney opponents want to convince us all that it does.

Some of the posts on this thread seem to advocate this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Show me a squad of hot heterosexual men wearing nothing but their tighty-whities or some similarly crotch- and ass-hugging ensemble and cheering for all-female sports which actually produce significant scholarships at the collegiate level and significant incomes and endorsement contracts at the professional level. Then I will be impressed.

Until then? Sexist bullshit.

I mean seriously, it's sexist that men and women act differently? That's so utterly ridiculous I don't even know where to begin.

quote:

As a by-the-way - why are you arguing with me? I'm male, thus more aggressive than you are. You're bound to lose. Or am I, and will you?

I'm a woman, thus more patient. I'll keep bouncing back and forth on this til you focus your aggression elsewhere ;)

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 10/26/2009 9:51:57 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 339

RE: Feminism - 10/26/2009 10:15:24 PM

zephyroftheNorth

Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline

Bella, you have mail....ty *grins*

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Post #: 340

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