RE: Feminism

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SweetDommes -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:13:05 AM)
Actually, it was far from the only thing that I took notice of - I personally find most of what has gone on in this thread to be morally repulsive. But any remarks directed towards those things would have just sparked a new diatribe, so I bypassed them. I will admit that I did remark upon your comment because it spoke to me directly - but as for the extremist issues ... direct confrontation is rarely the right answer when people are threatening mass murder. I'm all for letting the proper authorities handle that one - a war of words gets one nowhere with people like that.

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:23:15 AM)
Yes, i spoke to a fear many women have. And i gladly take the heat for speaking of that fear. Regardless of what others may believe, i have no need to "suck up" to anyone. A look to the political boards will show that i can be playful, teasing, and silly.... i can also be driven and debate with the gorean men just as well as the rest. I just find it worrisome that no one seemed to have a desire to step in until something happened that spoke directly to them, and im not singling you out, Sweet. As women, we should be building each other up, encouraging our successes. True equality will never be achieved as long as all we can do is pull each other down to the gutter and wrestle in the mud of name calling, cat fights and belittlements... much to the pleasure of men.

Louve00 -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:30:36 AM)
I think you're asking for more than can be expected, tazzy. Stepping into the middle of a heated debate about feminism, when slaves, submissives, dommes and non-dommes (as well as males, too) involved will bring about many aspects not everyone will agree with. What happened was people started attacking other people here. Not the cause, but the people. Some now are patting themselves on the backs for the words they've written, when really I think we are all on the same page. Granted, some women might not find kneeling at the feet of men as abjective slaves as appealing as owning a slave. As women to women, we should respect those differences, too.

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:31:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Actually, i dont see a slave in her. Just the same way i dont see a nazi in Elisabella. And in just the same way that i dont see slaves pulling Feminism back into the dark ages. And yet, with all the belittlement, all the name calling, all the harrassment aimed at submissives/slaves here, the idea that i would dare post something so "scandlous" towards a Domme is the only things that people took notice of. Rather telling on a thread about Feminism. Not sure how you can say it's the only thing noticed when people are criticizing Shakti left and right for her rhetoric. I think I was the first to respond to your comment and I tried to steer clear of the personal aspect (who you are, who Shakti is). I just think if you look at feminism as domme vs sub, or women vs. men, it's a false frame. I know some nasty things have been said about you here, and people have gotten far too personal. But that's it, it's people getting personal. It's not "telling" about feminism.

PeonForHer -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:32:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl True equality will never be achieved as long as all we can do is pull each other down to the gutter and wrestle in the mud of name calling, cat fights and belittlements... much to the pleasure of men. Not this man, I can absolutely assure you.

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:42:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl As women, we should be building each other up, encouraging our successes. True equality will never be achieved as long as all we can do is pull each other down to the gutter and wrestle in the mud of name calling, cat fights and belittlements... much to the pleasure of men. Men insult each other on the internet, too. It's not a female thing. True equality will be achieved when women can disagree without it being characterized as a catfight. How do we have a conversation about feminism that builds women up and encourages our successes? I compliment Elisabella on her complex sentence structure and ignore the substance of her post? Throwing insults around inhibits constructive dialogue. This is true regardless of gender.

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:49:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Actually, i dont see a slave in her. Just the same way i dont see a nazi in Elisabella. And in just the same way that i dont see slaves pulling Feminism back into the dark ages. And yet, with all the belittlement, all the name calling, all the harrassment aimed at submissives/slaves here, the idea that i would dare post something so "scandlous" towards a Domme is the only things that people took notice of. Rather telling on a thread about Feminism. Not sure how you can say it's the only thing noticed when people are criticizing Shakti left and right for her rhetoric. I think I was the first to respond to your comment and I tried to steer clear of the personal aspect (who you are, who Shakti is). I just think if you look at feminism as domme vs sub, or women vs. men, it's a false frame. I know some nasty things have been said about you here, and people have gotten far too personal. But that's it, it's people getting personal. It's not "telling" about feminism. I dont see it as a Domme vs sub kind of thing. I see it as a series of choices that women can make their decisions from. To marry or not, to have children or not, to have a career or not, to stay home or not, to have lovers or not... ect.. ect.. ect. But, anytime you toss in sexual orientation, then the waters get murky and churned. Women make choices everyday. Sexual orientation isnt a choice.

lusciouslips19 -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:57:16 AM)
I would also like to add that How can a conversation about Feminism and why it exists be had ,when whenever it is done there is mention of MRA's. Pages of argument. Like its an either or proposition. I dont think one has to do with the other. I believe that is the men in legislation that developed that status quo. There may be a bias but its not perpetuated by women. I dont really see tons of men flocking to be sole caretakers of their children or even joint care takers. Many are great fathers. But to blame all of mens lack of stand in their childrens life as the fault of the female population is just ludicrious.

lusciouslips19 -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 7:03:51 AM)
I also want to add to the young'uns out there. There was a book of fiction written that was incredibally powerful. Gives the backbone of the reason of why women need choices and a feminist movement. I read it over and over when i was in my teens. The Woman's Room By Marilyn French

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 7:03:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl. Sexual orientation isnt a choice. Which is one of the reasons I objected to the way you introduced orientation into the conversation.

SweetDommes -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 7:43:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl. Sexual orientation isnt a choice. Which is one of the reasons I objected to the way you introduced orientation into the conversation. Same here. The whole thread became an unholy mess, which I mentioned more than once. Your comment was one I felt qualified to object to without inciting another "e-riot" - the others ... as I said before, I leave it to the proper authorities to deal with threats of murder.

SimplyIsaac -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 8:50:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl True equality will never be achieved as long as all we can do is pull each other down to the gutter and wrestle in the mud of name calling, cat fights and belittlements... much to the pleasure of men. Not this man, I can absolutely assure you. Amused. [;)]

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 8:55:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl As women, we should be building each other up, encouraging our successes. True equality will never be achieved as long as all we can do is pull each other down to the gutter and wrestle in the mud of name calling, cat fights and belittlements... much to the pleasure of men. Men insult each other on the internet, too. It's not a female thing. True equality will be achieved when women can disagree without it being characterized as a catfight. How do we have a conversation about feminism that builds women up and encourages our successes? I compliment Elisabella on her complex sentence structure and ignore the substance of her post? Throwing insults around inhibits constructive dialogue. This is true regardless of gender. I don't know, for men it's a "pissing contest to see who has the biggest e-prick" or something along those lines. I think anyone who argues passionately on the internet is the object of some people's derision and yes I do realize I fit squarely in that category. To me at least, I don't see a need for women to argue in a way that "encourages our successes" because I don't see women as a victim class. I don't think we need to hold each other's hand in the name of sisterhood - if a woman is wrong, I'll tell her she's wrong. I'll do the same with a man. Check that other thread, the guy who blames his switch ex wife for spending too much money. If I think someone's wrong, I'll say it. I think it encourages women to be weak if you have to hold their hand and tiptoe around the negative, or interject it with a positive...it smacks of patting a puppy on the head - "Well honey, you didn't really do your research, and your argument is completely incoherent, but my what a pretty font you used to type it! Good work!" Seriously what is that? It seems oppression goes in three stages - stage one, the oppressed is always wrong. No matter what they do if they come up against a privileged person they will be in the wrong. Stage two, the privileged people realize oppression is wrong and instead start tip-toeing around the oppressed, afraid to hurt their feelings. Also a form of othering, distancing yourself from the oppressed under the guise of caring. Step three is when the oppression ends. It's when you look at someone of a generally oppressed class, and if they're right you say they're right and if you're wrong you say they're wrong, same as anyone else. Obviously just my opinion. But the idea that "women should stick together because we're women" really grates on me - what does that say about men? If women should 'stick together' who are they sticking together against? Non-women, of course. Men. And possibly puppies. Male puppies. That being said I know I cursed too much on this thread, there were points where my blood was literally boiling (lying in bed with unbearable menstrual cramps is bad enough without someone on the internet saying I'm not thin enough for my periods to really hurt) but the only remorse I feel about that is that I let my temper get the better of me. Whether the object of my vitriol was male or female never entered into my mind.

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 9:08:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stiv2009 quote: It's like my allusion to abolitionists - they did what they needed to do, then they moved on to more important things But did they? Was not that just the beginning of the process of black emancipation? Did "legal rights" alone give equal human dignity? Did it not need further legal struggles around the time of the civil rights movement - but, was not also, some genuine social change necessary, in order for racial equality to become something real rather than notional? Anyway Elisabella, you are a brilliant polemicist, you make wonderful analogies, use supporting evidence really well, are just as at home slugging it out as you are citing academic evidence. Moreover I agree with most of what you write. But not necessarily all. Steve Thank you for the compliments. As far as your question, yes it was just the beginning of black equality, but my point is that isn't the abolitionist movement. The abolitionist movement dealt with freedom from legally instituted slavery. The civil rights movement dealt with legal discrimination via segregation, biased voting requirements, etc. as well as severe social issues such as the fact that in some towns any white person who murdered a black person in cold blood would be acquitted by a jury of his peers. But now...we don't have anyone fighting for the legal rights of black people, because we already have them. We do have people like Al Sharpton who make a fucking fortune going on TV and demonstrating that they have a vested interest in keeping their own people miserable. Which is why I wonder why feminists are still here. What are their goals? Equality, they say. Legally we already have it. Socially, well, it's far more complicated than just saying "everyone should be treated equally" because guess what, not everyone is equal. Maybe one woman in a million would be qualified to be a NFL linebacker. People talk about wage disparities, but when you equalize everything (education, qualifications, hours worked, length of time at a company, etc) it turns out that instead of the oft-cited "71 cents per dollar," women actually make 95% of what men make, and at the right company a 5% wage difference could be ONE pay raise. Which is why I brought up the idea that men are more aggressive in ASKING for pay raises. And asking for a pay raise can be the only difference between making $50,000 a year or making $47,500 per year. If the goal is "equal legal rights for all" - why feminism? Why not simply, equal rights activist? A disabled man in a wheelchair who wants the post office to build a ramp isn't going to seek out a 'feminist' attorney for help. He's going to seek out a civil rights attorney. And if the goal is making everything socially identical for men and women...well...how 'bout you start with making everything socially identical for everyone. Regardless of IQ, social background, religion, talents, disabilities, any of it. Just make them all act the same and want the same stuff so they're equally represented in every field. It's not going to happen. It's not only a lost cause, it's really a destructive cause.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 2:19:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl sounds to me like she is aching to find a man strong enough to slam her to her knees and keep her there, Master Orion. despite her denials, i see a slave belly in there, waiting to burn for the right man. alas, silly Female that she is, she doesnt see the freedom in chains and spends so much time denying what she is instead of seeking out the truths within herself. blink In what way, shape or form do you see anything remotely resembling a slave in Shakhti? You do know that not all women are slaves, right? You interact with several on the Gorean board. This smacks of sucking up to Orion so you can hear "good girl". There are better ways to do that. Actually, i dont see a slave in her. Just the same way i dont see a nazi in Elisabella. And in just the same way that i dont see slaves pulling Feminism back into the dark ages. And yet, with all the belittlement, all the name calling, all the harrassment aimed at submissives/slaves here, the idea that i would dare post something so "scandlous" towards a Domme is the only things that people took notice of. Rather telling on a thread about Feminism. Actually it isn't the only thing I've taken notice of but this is comment-worthy. Because as far as I can tell what you were saying is that all Shakhti needs is a good strong man to "slam" her to her knees and that you see the "slave belly" in her. Or did I get it wrong, in which case please clarify.

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 3:50:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella To me at least, I don't see a need for women to argue in a way that "encourages our successes" because I don't see women as a victim class. I don't think we need to hold each other's hand in the name of sisterhood - if a woman is wrong, I'll tell her she's wrong. I'll do the same with a man. ... I think it encourages women to be weak if you have to hold their hand and tiptoe around the negative, or interject it with a positive...it smacks of patting a puppy on the head - "Well honey, you didn't really do your research, and your argument is completely incoherent, but my what a pretty font you used to type it! Good work!" Seriously what is that? ... Obviously just my opinion. But the idea that "women should stick together because we're women" really grates on me - what does that say about men? If women should 'stick together' who are they sticking together against? Non-women, of course. Men. And possibly puppies. Male puppies. And for the third time (by my count) on this thread, you and I are in agreement. Except for the puppies thing. No one stands against puppies. I think this is a sign of the apocalypse. By the way, not to be patronizing, but you really do have admirable sentence structure. It makes it easier to follow how I disagree with you. :)

PeonForHer -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 4:47:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl True equality will never be achieved as long as all we can do is pull each other down to the gutter and wrestle in the mud of name calling, cat fights and belittlements... much to the pleasure of men. Not this man, I can absolutely assure you. Amused. [;)] Isaac, Did you wink and grin at the screen as you wrote the word "amused", or did you wink and grin when you actually clicked the 'wink' emoticon? Also, when you wrote the word "amused" in bold, was this an indication that you were winking and grinning really, really hard? I've no idea why, but for some reason, I found myself wondering about these matters.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:10:58 PM)
Oh for those who think that the maneating/hating Feminazi doesn't exist, check this out. Look for postings/blog by Kitty Glendower. I'm willing to believe she actually chews glass for fun http://aroomofourown.wordpress.com/

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:28:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl. Sexual orientation isnt a choice. Which is one of the reasons I objected to the way you introduced orientation into the conversation. I didnt introduce it. It was introduced time and time again. I merely responded in kind. If that hurt feelings, upset some people, then perhaps they should look in a mirror and ask themselves why. Sexual orientation isnt a choice, yet repeatedly subs and slaves were belittled for their orientation. Or did people miss that being presented over and over and over again.

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:31:44 PM)
quote: To me at least, I don't see a need for women to argue in a way that "encourages our successes" because I don't see women as a victim class. I don't think we need to hold each other's hand in the name of sisterhood - if a woman is wrong, I'll tell her she's wrong. I'll do the same with a man. Check that other thread, the guy who blames his switch ex wife for spending too much money. If I think someone's wrong, I'll say it. If she is wrong, be woman enough to tell her she is wrong, and she should be woman enough to accept that she may have been. Thats not what i meant, holding hands and kissing cheeks. I do believe women should be celebrating each others successes. Berating, belittling, demeaning cat fights is not how that is achieved.

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