RE: Feminism

RE: Feminism (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Mistress

Message

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 7:32:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac Well, based on experience in these forums, the description does seem to fit with you on more than one occasion. Shakti's words in this forum have always been well articulated and food for thought. Yours, however, leave much to be desired here. I'm sorry but... have you read this thread? I'm going to indulge my librarian fetish here and do a bit of cataloguing. The best part is the fact that the self-identified misogynist on this thread hasn't insulted me at all. Might that be because he is in line with your argument? [8\|] Um...are you saying it's okay to compare people to cult members who kidnap people, death camp guards, and threaten to shoot them in the face (literally) if they disagree with your political argument on the internet? Seriously. Quite a few people have disagreed with me on here. Only one has said they would have no problem shooting every single person who disagrees with them in the face. I'll give you a hint - it's not the same person who was repeatedly compared to a nazi. It was the one who was making the comparison.

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 7:39:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne I guess I'd like to state at this point that I think Elisabella's position is based on false premises. And while I disagree with Shakti's rhetoric, I understand how she got there. So, um... can we take it down on a notch on all sides? Shakti calls me a nazi, says I'm the type of person who runs death camps, then says she would have no problem systematically killing everyone who disagrees with her political views, including me, and you "understand how she got there"? Not to mention everything she's accused me of is a complete lie and misinterpretation. Sorry. No. Shakti owes me an apology and since she's too much of a self righteous lying hypocrite to give one, she's going to have to deal with me pointing out how every single one of her posts is based on lies and/or threat of violence. Perhaps I misjudged you. From what I've collected from your posts, I thought you had a fairly similar background to me in the late teens early 20s libertarian backround. I didn't think you took her comments so literally. I didn't think you were the kind of person who required an apology for dramatic statements on the internet. I don't for a second believe that you worry about Shakti or her agents coming after you. I'll be honest, I'm quite torn about you. You are obviously intelligent. And I think we've had similar exposures at similar ages. I just wish I knew how to bring you over to the side of the light.

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 7:42:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama quote: ORIGINAL: fryingpan It's clear you're a feminist who doesn't hate men. You have your right to your opinion of feminism (which was needed because women were very much oppressed, and still are today in large parts of the world). But it is also just as obviously clear that you are not a hateful, radical feminist. But who is? As I've said before--I keep hearing from people who claim to have "run into feminists" who hate men, for example. Are there lesbian separatists who claim to be "feminists"? If so, I haven't run into these women. They apparently don't go to the meetings. http://aroomofourown.wordpress.com - the epitome of hateful, radical "political lesbian" separatists who refer to themselves as radical feminists. Hey guess what, they like to talk about killing people too! quote: Who are the "radical" feminists? The word "radical" is often used by the American Right in political discourse these days. What it now means is, "A person who is not a neo-conservative and is not so cowed and frightened by neo-conservatives that they hide in the basement and refuse to vote or speak." The radical feminists are the ones who have no problem "shooting any anti-feminist in the face." quote: There seems to be a commonality here that people with a female submissive viewpoint feel as if they are not accepted by "feminists". But have any of these women considered the fact that their submissive sexuality is also not accepted by the MAJORITY of ALL vanilla people, male and female? Never once have I mentioned my sexuality on this thread. The fact is you don't accept women making submissive choices. Sure you accept them making submissive choices in a very narrow BDSM context, but you don't accept them making the choice to be a cheerleader. In fact you have said that choosing to be a cheerleader isn't a real choice at all. How can you say you respect a woman's choice to be submissive, then say you feel cheerleading is a submissive role, but somehow end up saying you don't respect the choice to be submissive in that context as a valid choice at all?

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 7:47:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne I guess I'd like to state at this point that I think Elisabella's position is based on false premises. And while I disagree with Shakti's rhetoric, I understand how she got there. So, um... can we take it down on a notch on all sides? Shakti calls me a nazi, says I'm the type of person who runs death camps, then says she would have no problem systematically killing everyone who disagrees with her political views, including me, and you "understand how she got there"? Not to mention everything she's accused me of is a complete lie and misinterpretation. Sorry. No. Shakti owes me an apology and since she's too much of a self righteous lying hypocrite to give one, she's going to have to deal with me pointing out how every single one of her posts is based on lies and/or threat of violence. Perhaps I misjudged you. From what I've collected from your posts, I thought you had a fairly similar background to me in the late teens early 20s libertarian backround. I didn't think you took her comments so literally. I didn't think you were the kind of person who required an apology for dramatic statements on the internet. I don't for a second believe that you worry about Shakti or her agents coming after you. I'll be honest, I'm quite torn about you. You are obviously intelligent. And I think we've had similar exposures at similar ages. I just wish I knew how to bring you over to the side of the light. I'm well aware she didn't literally mean she was going to shoot me in the face. She did however mean the nazi comments, at least if you take her word for it. I don't require an apology, but if she's going to keep insisting her lies are true (ie, "Elisabella thinks that women should submit to men," "Elisabella is a submissive trying to enact her sex life into law," "Elisabella thinks women are inferior to men," "Elisabella is working to actively rescind women's legal rights.") I'm going to keep insisting she quote it or shut up. Honestly, this is the internet. If something gets repeated enough times people think it's true. And the last thing I want right now is a bunch of idiots going around saying I'm some sort of fascist who wants to force women into an inferior role. The only way to bring me around to the 'side of the light' is to make it actually be the side of the light. If feminism was solely about equal legal rights for women, if feminists were focused on things like Hindu wives being forced to commit ritual suicide rather than cheerleaders having the option to engage in sport, I don't think any woman would have a problem with it.

LadyPact -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 7:49:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy What I learned and accepted was feminism seems to go against what most of the prominent 'feminist' seem to believe. I heard on NPR the other day a woman in her fifties, who teaches English somewhere up north (PA I think) talking about American football. "Women aren't supposed to like football! It's a male dominated sport while the girls are on the side lines wearing those ridiculously short skirts and flaunting their bodies." But she liked football. Her father had season tickets, and she grew up watching the Seminoles, and when her father died she inherited his season tickets. Good for her! But since she's a woman, she shouldn't like football... She even went as far as to say that she was a little ashamed of liking what she likes. My belief in feminism is equality, not stereotyping myself because of my gender. I don't like football, but that's not because I have a vagina, it's because I just don't have any interest in it. How do you view feminism? How does feminism affect your D/s and 'vanilla' relationships? What do you think about the above woman's conflicted love affair with her favorite game? Fair enough. I answered a number of your points, except for My views about football. (I've told these stories to people in real life. Now, I get to bore you with them.) My father raised Me with a love for the game. I was born 30 miles away from Penn State and can often be caught telling the old joke about why the sky is blue and white. In My Father's opinion, Joe Paterno really is a God walking among mortals. One of the things that shocked MP all to heck when we first met is that I knew what a touchback was and made the call before the officials did. I don't give a damn if I'm "supposed" to like football. I probably like football because it was a bonding experience with My Father. If I watch a game today, I still do so in the same manner as I did back then. Jumping out of My seat when there is an exciting play, talking back when I disagree with the calls, and all of the things that My Father and I did together back when I was young. All I can say is, I'm not on this planet for anyone to approve whether I love the game or not. I don't mean to sound harsh, but My purpose on this planet isn't to exist because of the priority of anyone else. Sure, I have an inclination to help people along the way, but that's not My primary purpose. That might be what feminism really is, you know? Being who you are by choice and not what someone else tells you that you are supposed to be.

SweetDommes -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 8:07:09 PM)
Actually, I believe you'll find that my reply about everyone should be allowed to choose what makes them happy is a fair answer to your question. If someone wants to enjoy football, what should it matter if they are male or female. Honestly, I despise watching football ... but playing? Love it. I know guys who are fans of theatre - musical theatre, ballet, etc - and there is no reason that they shouldn't be. In a D/s context - feminism has allowed me to choose to be Dominant, so it's very important to me. It's also allowed women to choose to be switches and submissives, along with who they are going to take those roles with, without being forced into those roles by others.

aidan -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 8:11:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl It hasnt screwed up my life. It actually liberated it. I am all for feminism... the ability and the right to choose my path. I have chosen it, i am happy with the results. The definition of feminism i use is as follows.... Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. If we are all equal to choose our own path, then no path is better than the next. Feminism isnt evil. What is evil is the extremes some wish to take it. This is exactly what we're talking about. The proclamations of violence are precisely because of you saying that she should be made into a slave against her will. She is not a submissive, sexually or personally. Again, there is no problem here with what femsubs, male doms, male subs or female dommes do with their own time, in privacy. We just don't want to live in a world where those values, in either direction, to dictate the rest of life. Sorry, neither her nor I will apologize for saying "I will kill anybody who tries to subjugate me." shrugs

BitaTruble -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 8:19:52 PM)
quote: How do you view feminism? I'm old school about it all. Equal pay for equal work, respecting healthy choices, live and let live without the fear of persecution or ridicule for being true to your natural state of being whether that means getting out into the corporate world or staying home and making pies. It's what's in your heart that really counts which has nothing, at all, to do with what lies below your belly button. quote: How does feminism affect your D/s and 'vanilla' relationships? That I am a feminist relates to my world view. It only effects my relationships in that I am free to make the choice to be in a particular dynamic in which I thrive because it fits who I am. quote: What do you think about the above woman's conflicted love affair with her favorite game? I think she needs to embrace what she likes and quit worrying about how it's perceived by others. Reasonable adults are quite capable of deciding what's best for themselves and "society" is notorious for fucking things up. Society just needs to STFU already. [8D]

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 8:37:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aidan quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl It hasnt screwed up my life. It actually liberated it. I am all for feminism... the ability and the right to choose my path. I have chosen it, i am happy with the results. The definition of feminism i use is as follows.... Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. If we are all equal to choose our own path, then no path is better than the next. Feminism isnt evil. What is evil is the extremes some wish to take it. This is exactly what we're talking about. The proclamations of violence are precisely because of you saying that she should be made into a slave against her will. She is not a submissive, sexually or personally. Again, there is no problem here with what femsubs, male doms, male subs or female dommes do with their own time, in privacy. We just don't want to live in a world where those values, in either direction, to dictate the rest of life. Sorry, neither her nor I will apologize for saying "I will kill anybody who tries to subjugate me." shrugs Sorry sweetheart. She has made similar comments in this thread before, and always in a reply to Elisabella. Nor did i ask for an appology. Do you two even look at who you reply too?

ModeratorEleven -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 11:03:58 PM)
Now would be a very good time for people to take a deep breath and before clicking OK on their next post, consider whether or not they enjoy the ability to post in these forums. The level of bile is way over the top. Chill or be chilled. XI

RCdc -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 11:55:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoDolphins Well, I will say this much. I should say that I haven't agreed with everything the non-feminists or anti-feminists have said either. But I haven't seen them go so far as to say anyone deserves to be killed for their beliefs. There have been a few things some have said that were out of line but I don't think anything was quite that bad. I don't really care that people have different beliefs, but it's hard to even get around to looking at what people here have read when you see some of the insults they've come up with. I have and it is there in black and white. And I don't believe it is necessary to use verbal threats from one side (being thrown onto someones knees) and advocation of genocide (happy to shoot someone in the face because of their belief) to be acceptable as someone whom believes in the rights of the HUMAN. quote: No it doesn't bother me the way you used my words here. Thank you. quote: I should say this here. I have been critical of feminists on this thread, perhaps a bit too critical. I don't think all feminists are nuts. I've been around some of them on different web sites and some are good people. But there are too many feminists who are exactly like what I described about 25 pages or so ago, who think if you disagree with them you are a terrible person bent on making women subhuman, even if you believe in equal rights. This thread has proven that they are not a myth. I agree. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 1:03:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Fighting for freedom, which you have changed it to, is not the same as advocating genocide, which was your initial response. Dictators and partisans used the same 'excuse' to kill of many groups. And it is abhorant. the.dark. I haven't "changed" anything. These male supremacist men and women are fighting and working every day to make me less free. Fighting back against them verbally OR physically is not "genocide", any more than my Jewish grandfather fighting in World War II after his country was attacked and most everyone related to him in Euope was reduced to ashes was "genocide". As I have pointed out before, FEMINISTS died in those concentration camps. You know who put them there? Women like Elisabella. No, I am not kidding, no I am not making a false comparison. Read her posts, read her blog, and then compare them line by line with the things written by female Nazi party members. The resemblance is absolutely uncanny and not at all accidental. She is a racist, a sexist of the male supremacist stripe, and a fascist. Period. There is no doubt on the subject. You advocated genocide Shakti. You stated you would happily wipe out an entire minority because of their belief. But, that is ok, because you will apologise to their families later. Do you think that would have been ok for Milosevic, Mugabe or Hitler? Extreme examples, I admit and yes I AM comparing you to him, whether you have jewish ancestory or not because what you have said - for me as a human being is disgusting. Your outbursts have nothing with you standing up for your rights, or the rights of me or any other person. It has everything to do with your own need to be heard and need to be right. You are an embaressment as a woman to women similar to me and others orientations, who fight for the right for those that are oppressed or ridiculed or threatened with violence. You are an embarressment as a human for advocating wiping out or taking away the rights of people who think different to you because they don't conform to what your idea of being a feminist is. And as a dominant woman, you are an embaressment and a concern. Your lack of self control on this thread should flash warning lights for any s-type. You stated earlier that people stated how people claim that feminists hate men. I don't think that is the case. I think there are some feminists that are threatened by men, but the hate that is spewed on the whole by some feminists, comes from women AT women. And you have been a classic example of that. You haven't even bothered addressing the points that I made in an attempt to discuss your black and white point of all non male supremists being feminists. Instead you have concentrated on personal attacks and martyrism. Why? Because it's more comforting to threaten? To talk about and advocate death and destruction? To advocate the loss of human rights? I will not hold my breath for any semblence of a intellectual answer because you are so caught up in your own vitriol at the moment that you have even attacked me simply because you can and are showing classic signs of fanaticism and radical feminism you have tried to distance yourself from. And for the record - that was not a pointed sarcastic remark attacking your level on intellect because I have often found your posts quite effectual and clever. It is an observation on your lack of self control at this present time. quote: The fact that someone who claims to be a humanist actually thinks it's ok for some Gorean whore to threaten me with non-consensual slavery and sexual violence, so that I will learn to hate my freedom and be a "proper woman"? Makes me sick. Anyone who offers me that kind of violence in real life will die horribly. I am not ashamed to say so, in public or in private. If you think that their views are "civilized" and acceptable and mine are not--you need to recognize that a humanist is NOT what you are. And for the record, do not attempt to manipuilate me and my words. It was CLEAR that I did NOT advocate tazzy's words. It's there in black and white in three of my posts. So do not attempt to play that 'game' with me. And I do get that you are not ashamed. It is also quite obvious you don't care either. And that is the striking difference between you and people who fight, nnot just for for freedom, but for equality. They do care. And so do I. If you advocate death, murder, and genocide... that doesn't make you a feminist - it does make you a human being. And one whos cause is lost in your own vitriol. And for women and men like me who have the right to be heard and the right to equality and the freedom to express our desires and abilites in an manner where we should not have to fear oppression - your behaviour is a disaster - not for you - but for us. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 1:23:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Actually, a woman can be slammed to her knees by something other than the brute force of a man. His love, her desire, fear, anger, betrayal... emotions can just as quickly slam a woman to her knees. Maybe i was wrong in assuming other women could feel that deeply.... i know some can, obviously some never have. I know that the reference you made was done as an example - but honestly tazzy, it wasn't in the greatest of taste. As I am a female slave - and I am making that point because it is an important reference in so much as the people who have questioned your statement so far have been female dominants on the whole - it was pretty vile to me. I am a woman whom does feel the deepness of a man bringing me to my knees, with love and compassion. But try not insult peoples intellect by attempting to change what you put forward as being anything about that. I feel you, I do. Just as I feel Shakti. But this whole mess isn't the way to go and it just makes it harder for women - whatever side of the kneel they may be on - to be accepted as the rational humans they can be. It just makes it harder for everyone else. Even if people cannot show compassion for those that oppose them, at least have some compassion for the people who get caught up in the middle and have to fight the stereotypical extremist views portrayed on both sides - is that really too much to ask? the.dark.

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 1:41:08 AM)
That was a well written post, the.dark. I said this way back on page 15 or so and I stand by it, particularly the bolded part. quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Shakti I'm going to say this only once. I don't want to kill you, imprison you, torture you, starve you, or put you in a gas chamber. We have a difference in political opinion and like we agreed back on page 4 or 5 or whatever, we'll both work to change society to shape it into what we want it to be. If the only way my beliefs could be actualized was to forcibly silence dissent, they wouldn't be very good beliefs. We're both smarter than this empty rhetoric game. Please give it a rest. And I also want to make clear, with more than two words in reply to Lucienne's post to tazzy, that I also completely disagree with the route Tazzy took. I don't advocate forcing anyone to live a lifestyle that goes against their nature, whether that lifestyle is a FemDom one or a Gorean slave. I think comments like that really do nothing but bolster the stereotype that anti-feminists are all misogynists or male supremacists, and I think it also gives Goreans a bad name. I have become very good friends with a Gorean slave that posts on this board, and this past summer her Master invited me to a gathering at his house where I met three Gorean couples - they were some of the most honest, hardworking and trustworthy people I've ever met. Nobody once even insinuated they'd want to force me into slavery, and to be honest I got the sense that if anyone had tried anything unsavoury with me, our host would have given them hell for it because I was a guest in his home just like anyone else. Saying a woman should be forcibly enslaved until she learns to enjoy it is just as wrong as what Shakti's advocating and I want to make it clear I completely disapprove of both threats. As far as equal rights go, I really don't see what's so hard about saying "I'm in favour of equal rights." It seems that people are so caught up in the label "feminist" that they forget there are people out there who believe in equal rights for everyone. Again, I have said this before. Page 6: quote: I have a serious problem with equating equal rights to feminism. To me, equal rights = equal legal rights regardless of sex, gender (the two don't always match up), race, ethnicity, religion, age (once you're an adult that is), disability or lack thereof, etc. Not only that, but at least in most western countries (US, UK, EU, AU, Canada, etc) women and men HAVE equal legal rights. I can understand the current need for Gay Rights activists because gays don't have equal rights, but you can't say the same for women. It's like my allusion to abolitionists - they did what they needed to do, then they moved on to more important things. To me at least, legal rights for gay partners is more important than fighting women's choices to be cheerleaders. Again why I would identify as someone in favour of equal rights, rather than someone in favour of "women's rights" - there are far too many legal injustices in the world to limit yourself to only women.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 3:37:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Actually, a woman can be slammed to her knees by something other than the brute force of a man. His love, her desire, fear, anger, betrayal... emotions can just as quickly slam a woman to her knees. Maybe i was wrong in assuming other women could feel that deeply.... i know some can, obviously some never have. Personally I would have chosen the word "compelled" which implies just as strong an imperitive but does not carry the negative connotations of "slammed". And yes there are others who have felt it, we just aren't "slammed" to our knees....and held there.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 3:55:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl sounds to me like she is aching to find a man strong enough to slam her to her knees and keep her there, Master Orion. despite her denials, i see a slave belly in there, waiting to burn for the right man. alas, silly Female that she is, she doesnt see the freedom in chains and spends so much time denying what she is instead of seeking out the truths within herself. blink In what way, shape or form do you see anything remotely resembling a slave in Shakhti? You do know that not all women are slaves, right? You interact with several on the Gorean board. This smacks of sucking up to Orion so you can hear "good girl". There are better ways to do that.

stiv2009 -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 4:21:14 AM)
quote: It's like my allusion to abolitionists - they did what they needed to do, then they moved on to more important things But did they? Was not that just the beginning of the process of black emancipation? Did "legal rights" alone give equal human dignity? Did it not need further legal struggles around the time of the civil rights movement - but, was not also, some genuine social change necessary, in order for racial equality to become something real rather than notional? Anyway Elisabella, you are a brilliant polemicist, you make wonderful analogies, use supporting evidence really well, are just as at home slugging it out as you are citing academic evidence. Moreover I agree with most of what you write. But not necessarily all. Steve

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 5:26:59 AM)
You know what this thread needs? Nuns with guitars. Singing "This Land is Your Land." Guthrie. Definitely.

Louve00 -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:01:06 AM)
LOL, ya think, Lucienne? I was thinking more along the lines of passing out pooper-scoopers [:D]

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/6/2009 6:02:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl sounds to me like she is aching to find a man strong enough to slam her to her knees and keep her there, Master Orion. despite her denials, i see a slave belly in there, waiting to burn for the right man. alas, silly Female that she is, she doesnt see the freedom in chains and spends so much time denying what she is instead of seeking out the truths within herself. blink In what way, shape or form do you see anything remotely resembling a slave in Shakhti? You do know that not all women are slaves, right? You interact with several on the Gorean board. This smacks of sucking up to Orion so you can hear "good girl". There are better ways to do that. Actually, i dont see a slave in her. Just the same way i dont see a nazi in Elisabella. And in just the same way that i dont see slaves pulling Feminism back into the dark ages. And yet, with all the belittlement, all the name calling, all the harrassment aimed at submissives/slaves here, the idea that i would dare post something so "scandlous" towards a Domme is the only things that people took notice of. Rather telling on a thread about Feminism.

Page: << < prev 30 31 [32] 33 34 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875