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The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 5:23:05 AM

allthatjaz

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This topic comes about after a recent conversation with a friend of mine on the scene. He is in his 40s and his sub in her late 20s. They do most things together and are clearly very much a pair but recently she has been invited to a local under 30s munch. There are many under 30 and under 35 munches in the UK now. They have told him that he can go but won't be able to sit with the group. If he goes he will have to hang around at the bar. He wasn't complaining and said that if anything the older generation were responsible for causing this divide by continually putting down the younger BDSMers.
I tend to agree with this. On the one hand I think its great that we are getting the younger crowd through. The days of going to clubs full of oldies are quickly diminishing and we are seeing more and more fresh young faces joining us. I have always embraced the part of BDSM which is not ageist or was I living under some kind of illusion?
I am not talking about a young sub not wanting to date a young Dom 'because of inexperience'. We all have our personal preference when it comes to love matching. I am talking about the mouthy older generation that put down the younger folk, especially young Doms on boards such as this. I have seen the followers of the 'old guard' preach from their parapets that these young Doms can't possibly know what they are doing.
Is this preaching partly responsible for creating sub groups and are these sub groups now becoming ageist?

A new club has started in London. I would say its a fairly hard core venue with a great underground feel about it and its most certainly not ageist. The interesting observation several of us have made is that its full of young hard core players. Because of this several older Dom/Dommes have started moaning loudly about this and berating the club for being like a youth club. This in turn is putting off the older BDSMers who don't want to look out of place amongst so many fresh young faces.
Who is causing the divide here?

I think to an extent, if there are enough people involved then sub groups will naturally form but do you think we will reach the stage where young and old will no longer mix? I think its a great shame if it does but I for one won't be blaming the younger crowd because when you see the shit they have to take, who could blame them?

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 5:31:46 AM

DesFIP

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I think it is natural for people to want to be in a group where they have a great deal of commonality. Where they feel comfortable. Which means a group of 25 year olds are not going to feel comfortable with a 45 year old in their midst. And neither will the 45 year old.

You say that the older group is directly responsible for the younger ones not feeling comfortable and immediately afterwards you mention that the older ones do not feel comfortable in a club filled with younger ones. Doesn't sound like anyone is responsible, like anyone is directly trying to get others to leave. It just sounds like people preferring to be with peers. And there is more to a peer group then just one item. Both being into bdsm is not enough, there will be divides along age lines, along gender, by football partisanship. Would one lone Manchester fan feel comfortable in a group of London supporters even though they all enjoy the same game? Hardly. Neither would one lone female feel comfortable in a group of otherwise all male even though they all enjoy bdsm.

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 5:51:52 AM

allthatjaz

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Natural perhaps in some cases but not in all.
An example of this is Steve and me are very good friends with a young group of BDSMers. We never play but we are firm friends that spend a lot of time together and have a huge amount in common. We are not the only older ones within that friendship group.
They have told us openly that they have been pissed off by the general attitude towards them and because of this they tend to stay away from particular clubs, munches and other meeting grounds.

I did not say that the older group are directly responsible! I said that in my opinion the mouthy ones about the younger crowd could be creating a divide. I think many of the older crowd feel perfectly comfortable and happy with the younger crowd but the older ones that stay away from clubs that have lots of young people and shout loudly that the clubs like a youth club must take some responsibility for creating a gap.

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 7:52:12 AM

SirRussellP

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Have you thought about how the older folks feel sharing advice and being ignored. The young male Dom is a little frightened by the older more experienced Dom, fearing loose of current or potential subs.

I say this because I am approached almost weekly by 19 to 30 year subs wanting to get to know me. So the fear is real, through in those young ladies that want a "Daddy" and it becomes worse.

I am sure that there is also the fear by the older Doms that they will have to compete with younger prettier Doms.

For me I don't care that much about age but I do want a submissive that is near enough my age that we have things in common and the same is true for friends. Now I have a lot of very young friends but it does grow tiring trying to explain terms and phrases, so there are plenty of reasons for seperation.

Lastly a question does the older group have age restrictions for their munches?

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 7:57:55 AM

kiwisub12

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We have just had some younger (read 20-somethings) people join our local munch, and speaking for myself, i am glad they are here. Diversity of any sort adds dimension to our group , and dimension adds interest.

I don't presume to judge anyone, so a calender number is way down on the list of things to worry about. One thing i enjoy about our new additions is that they get up and play, as opposed to sitting in the corner and watching, meeting after meeting.

Interestingly, i have heard no negative comments about our new members, so i guess our local community is way less judgemental than the English one

- and that is my judgement!

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 7:58:09 AM

Andalusite

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This is my last year being eligible for the "next generation" activities locally, and my playpartner is about 10 years older than I am. She isn't allowed at the munches, but is allowed at the playparties, classes, and other events as long as I attend as well. There's a different event that is under-40 only (I'm not sure if there's an exception for partners), and most of the people are 20-something. I've seen pretty ageist attitudes online, but haven't usually run into it openly in person. However, a lot of younger BDSM folks are uncomfortable at playparties where they are a tiny minority.

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 8:17:31 AM

fragilepieces

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quote:

Have you thought about how the older folks feel sharing advice and being ignored.

Advice is there to be taken or ignored so if you feel like sharing know ahead of time, your advice may not be desired. I'm an older and I ignore advice all of the time especially if I did not desire the advice in the first place. Also older does not deem more experienced. A 50 year old Dom who started last Tuesday is not more experienced than a 30 year old who has been practicing since he was 25. Even the amount of years pretty much means nothing if you have gotten nothing out of the experince.

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 8:23:05 AM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirRussellP

Have you thought about how the older folks feel sharing advice and being ignored. The young male Dom is a little frightened by the older more experienced Dom, fearing loose of current or potential subs.

I have not been in a position of giving a younger person advice and being ignored as far as I know but I only give advice if it is genuinely asked for and that would be to any age group
With age on our side we can lie about our years of experience. A forty year old that tells someone he's been around for 20 years is going to have more credence than a younger guy thats only had five and can only of had five max because of his age. That doesn't mean to say its truth. I know people on the scene that tell people they have been into this for many years and I chuckle to myself when I remember them first coming onto the scene two years before as nervous inquiring dominants. I know doms that have been on the scene for 20 years and I know young people that have done more, seen more and have a huge amount of experience.
.

quote:

Lastly a question does the older group have age restrictions for their munches?

No

quote:

I've seen pretty ageist attitudes online, but haven't usually run into it openly in person. However, a lot of younger BDSM folks are uncomfortable at playparties where they are a tiny minority.

Yep, that's where I have seen them too and like you I haven't run into much of this openly.
I agree about being uncomfortable at play parties where they are in the minority but I would say the play parties over here are generally 50/50

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 8:29:34 AM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

We have just had some younger (read 20-somethings) people join our local munch, and speaking for myself, i am glad they are here. Diversity of any sort adds dimension to our group , and dimension adds interest.

I don't presume to judge anyone, so a calender number is way down on the list of things to worry about. One thing i enjoy about our new additions is that they get up and play, as opposed to sitting in the corner and watching, meeting after meeting.

Interestingly, i have heard no negative comments about our new members, so i guess our local community is way less judgemental than the English one - and that is my judgement!

I think thats great and like you I love diversity.
I wouldn't say most BDSMers in the UK are ageist. On the contrary I would say that its a minority but a minority with a loud voice.
Do you have munches which limit certain ages ?

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 8:30:15 AM

AnimusRex

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There is a natural divide; My son is in college now, and although when I am around he and his friends, I think highly of them, they are a great bunch of guys.
But I can't see them from any other perspective than a father, looking at a bunch of 20 something kids.

I don't mean to overstate it; I also work with 20 somethings, and they are terrifically talented, and we get along great. And sometimes I do join them after work for drinks or whatever.

But ultimately, there is still a subtle gap between people who are just starting out on the upward curve of marriage, children, homemaking, and those like me who are at the other end of that curve, becoming emptynesters, looking ahead someday to grandchildren, planning the second half of our lives. There are no villains here, just a natural tendency of people to self-segregate according to interests and shared perspectives.

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 8:50:46 AM

LadyPact

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Personally, I think any community that is large enough to support any type of sig (special interest group) is great. There is nothing wrong with wanting to socialize within your own peer group, whether that be young, old, D, s, male, female, or any other thing. Some of the most fun times I've had over the years have sprung from hanging out with other Dominant women during brunch or whatever.

I've been doing this long enough to get in the door at the under 35 nights and now I'm older than that. I don't get upset when the submissive types have a get together because I'm not included. I think it's silly for anyone to complain about such things. Nobody fits into every category under the sun.

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 9:30:30 AM

Viridana

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Hmmmm... I am in a situation where there is a big age difference between my spouse and me. And one of the reasons I never attend "youth groups" in the scene is the fact that I'm not allowed to have my spouse with me. I don't know why he's considered such a threat that he's not allowed to sit next to me while I talk to my age-peers, find that actually a bit childish. Either we are both welcome or neither of us are. Amazingly I've never been unwelcome due to my age when he's with his age-peers. I think that says alot.... about alot.

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 9:38:33 AM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

There is a natural divide; My son is in college now, and although when I am around he and his friends, I think highly of them, they are a great bunch of guys.
But I can't see them from any other perspective than a father, looking at a bunch of 20 something kids.

I don't mean to overstate it; I also work with 20 somethings, and they are terrifically talented, and we get along great. And sometimes I do join them after work for drinks or whatever.

But ultimately, there is still a subtle gap between people who are just starting out on the upward curve of marriage, children, homemaking, and those like me who are at the other end of that curve, becoming emptynesters, looking ahead someday to grandchildren, planning the second half of our lives. There are no villains here, just a natural tendency of people to self-segregate according to interests and shared perspectives.

quote:

Personally, I think any community that is large enough to support any type of sig (special interest group) is great. There is nothing wrong with wanting to socialize within your own peer group, whether that be young, old, D, s, male, female, or any other thing. Some of the most fun times I've had over the years have sprung from hanging out with other Dominant women during brunch or whatever.

I've been doing this long enough to get in the door at the under 35 nights and now I'm older than that. I don't get upset when the submissive types have a get together because I'm not included. I think it's silly for anyone to complain about such things. Nobody fits into every category under the sun.

I don't really see anyone getting upset about the younger munches and I have certainly not seen anyone complain about them.

I said in my initial post that we would always get sub cultures and it was more a question of do the younger amongst us branch off because they prefer to be amongst others within their own age range or has it something to do with the stick they get from some of the older ones especially online. Perhaps its a bit of both.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 10/14/2009 9:51:56 AM >

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 11:10:49 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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I don't know that anything is inevitable. I am 47. I hang with folks of my offspring's generation (ranging from 27 down to 16) and their friends socially, but I also hang with other near-50-year-olds. I don't really know a lot of people -older- than myself, since I moved out of my native habitat, but once I head back east, I have a number of friends and colleages who are in their 60s and 70s and some who are getting close to their 80s. I'm well-read, fairly well traveled, and finally, about 5 years ago, I learned how to keep my mouth shut long enough to learn something. I have a broad appreciation for music, and listen to primarily rock -- but rock from the 60s on through last week. I don't know Darkwave from Death Metal by category, but according to my offspring, I have a healthy selection of both in my library (and I'm inclined to believe them, since they consistently raid my iTunes for music they don't have yet!).

I think that it's what we make of it. I think it's great that the folks that I know have their own age-related groups to hang out in to discuss things that are unique to the perspectives of that age -- for example, my offspring have never lived in a house without a computer... me, on the other hand, I was middle-aged before I got my first personal computer, and I learned programming on -punch cards- in FORTRAN! My kids wouldn't know FORTRAN if it bit them on the byte -- and why should they. For them, talk about the 'good old days' is often boring (besides which, they've heard most of the really -good- stories a dozen times before they were 12), but for us it's a reminiscence... it brings us a chuckle, and sometimes we get to marvel about how we managed.

On the other hand, I don't think that the ages will ever completely segregate, and the reason that I say that is purely practical... you see, we all age... and eventually, even if we're in, say, a TNG or something like that, we're going to meet people who will -still- be there when we're no longer 35 and welcome... and most of us won't give up those friends just because Joey turned 35 and now he can't TNG any more, or because we had to leave Mikey back with the Under 35 crowd. It just doesn't work that way. Because we're all getting older, eventually, the age-oriented groups will shift and we'll move around more freely.

It's nice to have specialty groups to give people the opportunity to get comfortable in an environment where they can open up -- I wouldn't worry about whether we'll be overly segregated. Humans are social animals, and most of the time, it's been my experience that the boundaries between us become more flexible and permeable over time.

Dame Calla

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 11:11:35 AM

kiwisub12

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Perhaps we should be glad that there are enough people out there interested in bdsm that munchs can be age seperated.

As far as i know there aren't enough people in my area to support such an act.

But numbers are growing all the time.

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 11:21:07 AM

porcelaine

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when i came into the scene years ago in my twenties there were not a lot of people my age in the venues i frequented. we were a small minority and i believe groups like tng are good. it provided a comfortable space for socializing with others of a similar range with divergent interests. while i had no problem enjoying the company of older persons, i found myself in good stead with those closer in age as well. to this day i maintain associations from various backgrounds and age groups, and in a social context i enjoy mixing. my only limitation is reflected in my partnerships, otherwise i'm fairly flexible and can bounce between both extremes with relative ease.

porcelaine

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 11:35:29 AM

LadyHibiscus

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I appreciate TNG groups, yadda yadda, but I really am sad when they work to BUILD the divide between age groups, rather than give the younger folks a place to hang out with their own age group. My friends are of all ages, I don't choose them for their age, but for their personalities! Would I have a mate young enough to be my child? No. But I would certainly hang out, play with, and share ideas with someone of that age.

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 12:46:06 PM

Justme696

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Fr

older people forget often how young they once were.

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 12:52:46 PM

Ialdabaoth

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I find I often have more in common with 18 year olds than I do with 36 year olds. Most people over 24 have two very nasty habits: They think they know everything worth knowing, and they think knowing more than someone else makes them somehow superior. This makes them impossible to teach, and impossible to learn from. What use do I have for people like that?

Certainly, there are exceptions, and I seek them out and count them as my friends - but on the whole, I'll take a gaggle of drama-filled teenagers over a clique of pretentious corporate ladder-climbers any day.

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RE: The young and the old BDSMers - 10/14/2009 12:54:27 PM

afterforever

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There isn't a whole lot of choice of groups in Northern Ireland. In the munch that I go to, I'm usually the youngest by a good decade or two (sometimes there's one other 20-something, but she only comes sporadically) and I've never had any problems or heard any bitching about my lack of experience/ refusal to take advice.

If all the young people in Belfast suddenly turned kinky and started a TNG group, I probably would go to that to be honest. My older friends are great, but it would be nice to hang out with people I have a little more in common with. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, although I do find it ridiculous that older partners aren't allowed to go to munches. Complete segregation is definitely not the way to go.

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