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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/14/2009 11:55:29 PM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

Theism is a crutch for the weak and typically ignorant who wish to remain free of earthly responsibility.

It can be, yes. Just as atheism can be a crutch for hateful little wretches who need to feel like they're smarter than everybody else.

K.

Medic! Medic! Oh, I walked into that one, huh?

My lack of theism is not a personal choice. It is an obvious non-bias decision I am forced to make (if I wish to remain honest with myself.)

Honestly do you not believe I do not desire to live in happiness for eternity with all my friends who have died over the years. I see how is is soothing, calming and comforting to believe I have a daddy in the sky who loves, cherishes for and helps me in dire times of need. . . .

I do not feel smarter... I do believe education has played a part in my non-theism. I do not feel dumber either. Often I am 'excommunicated' though. My family has not 'disowned me' not by any stretch.. However, I am a up front with my mother about her delusions as I am with anyone here. I am not logically or emotionally compelled to accept theism to 'fit in' like so many do. Nor can I accept or tolerate my daughter accepting it because it feels good.
(sex with a condom is often described as feeling better)

Again I am very confident given my specific situation it would be much easier to be a theist. I am sure this is true for the vast majority.

I am sure you said, "It is easier to be an atheist because you believe you will not go to hell" with a small grin on your face. However, it simply is not true.

< Message edited by Esinn -- 11/14/2009 11:58:22 PM >

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Let's break the law

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Post #: 301

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/15/2009 12:02:18 AM

Esinn

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So help me god the above is true. Any drug or addiction makes us feel good/better or provides us with escape. However, this is not a logical reason to continue with the drug. It is the exact opposite. It is evidence there is a serious problem.

The fact that when we die that it although may seem depressing to some is not a rational reason to accept any religious belief - is all I am sayin.

I got my feet and do not need crutches.

_____________________________

Let's break the law

(in reply to Esinn)

Post #: 302

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/15/2009 4:25:07 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear
Seems to me that an infant's psychology isn't set at that early age enough that would cause a psychological effect later in life. Granted there are some cases where certain psychological harm at a very early age does have noticeable repercussions later on, but the removal of a piece of skin?

How about the removal of the tail or ears of a puppy? Or one of them tiny toes? Or the genitalia of a girl?
Circumcision is a violation of the integrity of the child, of the sanctity of his body. It is an act of extreme aggression.

As for me: my memory goes back to when I was suckled by my mom, who always stopped at six months and I do recall that I had many months of memories before that, perhaps up to or even before my birth. (I cannot remember being born and suspect that I was asleep at the time.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear
most of us who are circumcised as an infant, don't recall having it done thus our mindset is of indifference based upon the fact that it happened at such an earlier age that we dismiss it as something which is inconsequential.

Pff. There is one part of the mind that hides the memory of trauma's from other parts of the mind. That you do not recall it consciously does not mean that the traumatic memory is not present in your subconscious mind.

Edited to add: my previous posts were not about any psychological trauma caused by circumcision - that is another subject entirely - but about the inevitable evolutionary repercussions on the composition of the gene pool, and on the phenotypes (including cultural behavior) of individuals in the affected population.

A supergenius with an innate knowledge of biology would know that the infant brain is not fully developed and the brain synapses necessary to remember circumcision are not yet developed. In brain development, the body chooses which connects to keep and which will wither and cease to exist.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xi76saMA4eMC&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=brain+synapses+%2B+infant&source=bl&ots=4qThqqjidD&sig=8YkOI7_fy6Dn3cvCLXymI_yUdh4&hl=en&ei=UPD_SraDFI2rngen0IiPCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=brain%20synapses%20%2B%20infant&f=false

http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepubs/htmpubs/4356.htm

There are literally thousands of other articles about brain development in infants.

Why are dobermins born with tails at all if they have been docked for centuries? I really don't understand your premise at all but then I'm just a dolt.

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(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 303

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/15/2009 4:41:04 AM

Eigenaar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I know there has been no verifiable, replicable evidence of a creative supernatural being.

Knowledge is no verifiable evidence.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 304

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/15/2009 5:00:25 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

It's the fanatic belief in any of them to the exclusion of any other consideration, that generated the polarization, war, and hatred we saw in the past, and we are seeing the the present. Intolerance for any 'non-believer' or even a conflicting 'god' is why belief in any 'god' has been responsible for more pain, suffering, and death than any other plague.

Bravo!!

While correct if we are to be honest with ourselves it is the non fanatic belief which allows the fanatic to survive. For the same reason I would not tolerate a non-fanatic racist talking to my kid about why she needs to hate mud people I would find it equally disgusting for a non-fanatical theist to speak with her(Either side of the coin you step knee deep in absolute ignorance and bull crap).

Honestly any well intentioned theist says to the theist in religion 'X' my god is real yours is not. I am not acting sinful you are. I will not rot in hell you will. My god created everything, not yours. I am right do not tell me I am wrong(says theist Y to theist X). They both even have books to prove their correctness. I will live in eternal happiness with all my loved ones you will not. Although I have no evidence other than the same evidence you call upon to suggest to me your god is true you are not correct, I am.

That seems a smidgen fanatical to me. At very least very suggestive of a serious mental disorder(Delusional).

I'm sorry... where did I say anything about my beliefs? You seem so fanatical about your hatred that you seem to exclude any other consideration. Including comment that is so far out of context that it tends to support Merc's comment rather than refute it. I personally have never told another living soul that their beliefs are wrong. Belief, in my opinion is a personal thing. I happed to love artichokes with mayonnaise. Some people call me crazy. I have never forced anyone to eat an artichoke. Becuase I accept that others are different, have different tastes, different beliefs and have a right to them.

To suggest to people that they ought to pour gasoline on living kittens and watch their burning bodies run though a dry corn field sounds at very least very mentally disturbed.
http://www.collarchat.com/m_2870368/tm.htm#

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 11/15/2009 5:05:32 AM >

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to Esinn)

Post #: 305

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/15/2009 5:33:56 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Well, Paul disagrees with you. He said he had a rather powerful encounter with the risen Jesus. So, who am I to believe, GotSteel or Paul? Obvious choice if i have to make one.

1. Paul claimed to have had a hallucination rather than physically meeting Jesus. Hallucinations aren't a reliable method of gaining information, a point that was driven home to our civilization by the Salem witch trials.

2. Presenting your options as Paul or I is a false dichotomy, there are other options for instance Jesus is supposed to have actually talked to some people and taught them some stuff: "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:26)

3. Personally I'm an atheist; I'd rather you didn't believe any of the Biblical gibberish.

Lest we get into any further sniping let me point out we are on the same side of the fence here. The reason I study Christianity is I feel the need to understand what I am rejecting, it being the major religious, social, political, psychological, etc influence in Western Civilization which frames my life.

Of course Paul had an hallucination. If you are an atheist and a humanist what else is there to believe? But his seizure was legitimate enough in appearance to give him credentials to sally forth as an Apostle equal to the others. Perhaps more equal than the others because he was literate and able to author letters to the churches he founded and speak for himself. Perhaps more than equal when the message of the Resurrection eclipsed the Law of the Covenant.

And James (or whoever wrote in his name) would say what you quoted because James, being the head of the church in Jerusalem held the conviction that to be a follower of Jesus one had to first be a Jew and accept the mandate of the Covenant that salvation required living by the Law of the Covenant - circumcision, dietary rules, etc. Yes, still to be found in one of the Books of the Canon but hard to argue that is an acceptable tenent of Christianity by the fourth century.

There are many contradictory statements in the Canon because the various books were accepted over time. As far as I know there was no sit down committee that passed judgment on the contradictions. Check me on this but I think the Canon evolved over time in the third and forth centuries CE.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 306

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/15/2009 8:10:34 PM

slaveluci

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From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Brain, I have no issues with your atheism. But why do you hate the religious? If someone actually FOLLOWS their religion, they do NOT kill others in the name of God.

Amen, Steven. I've been thinking the same thing and not just about Brain. There's a rash of Christian-hating threads going on and it would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. If you don't believe, kudos to you in your superior enlightenment. If you do, it's your right. Geesh.........get off the backs of those who don't believe as you do. Your insecurities are showing

..............luci

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/15/2009 9:13:18 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Brain, I have no issues with your atheism. But why do you hate the religious? If someone actually FOLLOWS their religion, they do NOT kill others in the name of God.

Amen, Steven. I've been thinking the same thing and not just about Brain. There's a rash of Christian-hating threads going on and it would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. If you don't believe, kudos to you in your superior enlightenment. If you do, it's your right. Geesh.........get off the backs of those who don't believe as you do. Your insecurities are showing..............luci

Do you suppose it has something to do with religious fanatics crashing airplanes into the World Twin Trade Towers to kill the infidels in the name of God? Hmmmm? Why would that cause insecurities?

Do you suppose it has anything to do with the repeated alarms cried out by the Christian Apocalypticists that according to the Revelations of John this is the End Time and all non-believers will suffer eternal torments in Hell. Would that cause insecurities?

Or maybe our insecurities come from watching political candidates stand up in a debate and swear they do not believe in Evolution and it should not be taught in public schools. Would that cause us insecurities?

Or maybe it is a President who says he hears messages from God and sends us off on a "crusade" that kills 4300 of our finest young men and women. Would that cause us insecurities?

Or maybe it is those Bible brigades that are working so hard to restore prayer in the public schools where maybe 20% of us or more don't wish to pray. Would that cause us insecurities?

I would say yes to all of the above. It is shear audacity and mockery for Christians who have imposed their will, their Kings and armies and Inquisitions upon Western Civilization for 2000 years to suddenly cry that it is they who are being victimized, when the non-believers are saying we have had enough and are not going to take it anymore. Please stop acting as if you are being martyred when all we are asking is to keep the public square a secular arena.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/15/2009 9:14:19 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 308

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/15/2009 10:53:09 PM

Kirata

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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Please stop acting as if you are being martyred when all we are asking is to keep the public square a secular arena.

And I would say, please stop acting as if you have any right to ask that.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

The establishment enjoinder is against favoring the expression of one religion over another.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/15/2009 11:11:16 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 309

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/16/2009 5:53:14 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Please stop acting as if you are being martyred when all we are asking is to keep the public square a secular arena.

And I would say, please stop acting as if you have any right to ask that.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

The establishment enjoinder is against favoring the expression of one religion over another.

K.

It is not as simple as you make it out to be. Jefferson wrote that the First Amendment erected a wall of separation between church and state not between religion and religion, although I grant you that Jefferson also had that in mind when he created The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. Institutions and spokes persons for the dominant Christian Faiths have historically and continue today to bring pressure to weaken that separation especially by promoting prayer in public schools and financial aid to private schools, as well as pressing for holiday displays on civic property.

Furthermore, just like "crying fire in a crowded theater" places a limit on free speech, the freedom to practice religion is not absolute as per this from the Wiki article:

"The Supreme Court of the United States has consistently held, however, that the right to free exercise of religion is not absolute. For example, in the 1800s, some of the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints traditionally practiced polygamy, yet in Reynolds v. United States (1879), the Supreme Court upheld the criminal conviction of one of these members under a federal law barring polygamy. The Court reasoned that to do otherwise would set precedent for a full range of religious beliefs including those as extreme as human sacrifice.The Court stated that "Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices." For example, if you were part of a religion that believed in vampirism, the First Amendment would protect your belief in vampirism, but not the practice."

You will find the quote here.

We are a Common Law nation. I would guess you know that means that the Constitution is interpreted by a hierarchy of Judiciary, an equal branch of government, to establish Case Law and Precedent. A cursory reading of the history of the case law on religious freedom certainly supports the right of the minority non-believers to successfully ask for the maintenance of the wall of separation.

In response to your statement "And I would say, please stop acting as if you have any right to ask that," I can simply say YES, WE CAN.

No one is stopping you from believing what you wish to believe or praying to whichever god you wish to pray to. Just stop pushing it into our faces by constantly proclaiming we are a Christian nation. We are a nation of believers, non-believers, and the indifferent. Go pray, brother. But do it some place where I do not have to encounter it and I in turn will not trouble you. Seems like a fair deal.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 310

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/16/2009 9:11:17 AM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

No one is stopping you from believing what you wish to believe or praying to whichever god you wish to pray to. Just stop pushing it into our faces by constantly proclaiming we are a Christian nation. We are a nation of believers, non-believers, and the indifferent. Go pray, brother. But do it some place where I do not have to encounter it and I in turn will not trouble you. Seems like a fair deal.

Don't call me "brother". Don't tell me to "go pray". And don't change the topic by telling me to "stop" something that I am not doing in the first place. Seeking to excise the free expression of religion from the public square is a hypocritical attempt to push secularism in people's faces. The only fair deal here lies with protecting the free expression of religion and anything else within the law including atheism and agnosticism in the public square, and hopefully it will stay that way for everyone's sake.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/16/2009 9:28:18 AM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 311

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/16/2009 1:58:49 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

No one is stopping you from believing what you wish to believe or praying to whichever god you wish to pray to. Just stop pushing it into our faces by constantly proclaiming we are a Christian nation. We are a nation of believers, non-believers, and the indifferent. Go pray, brother. But do it some place where I do not have to encounter it and I in turn will not trouble you. Seems like a fair deal.

Don't call me "brother". Don't tell me to "go pray". And don't change the topic by telling me to "stop" something that I am not doing in the first place. Seeking to excise the free expression of religion from the public square is a hypocritical attempt to push secularism in people's faces. The only fair deal here lies with protecting the free expression of religion and anything else within the law including atheism and agnosticism in the public square, and hopefully it will stay that way for everyone's sake.

K.

I am a little surprised by your personal sensitivities but I shall respect them by limiting my words to stay within the range of emotional neutrality as best I can. I would be happy to have a respectful dialogue with you laying aside any passive aggressive attitudes.

I doubt if we will find common ground but who says we have to.

If you care to continue I offer you two definitions of SECULARISM and ask you to tell me which, if either, it is you object to in the public square and what your objection is.

Otherwise, just pass me by and I will take no offense. I am here only to discuss and learn, not to play win/lose.

1. Secularism is the concept that government or other entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.
In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and freedom from the government imposition of religion upon the people, within a state that is neutral on matters of belief, and gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions.

2. In its most prominent form, secularism is critical of religious orthodoxy and asserts that religion impedes human progress because of its focus on superstition and dogma rather than on reason and the scientific method.

Found these definitions here.

I look forward to your response. Have a good evening.

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 312

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/16/2009 6:41:40 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Found these definitions here.

Excuse me, but "definitions" are found in dictionaries. Since that appears to be a new concept for you, let me help...

hyperdictionary.com: a doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations

dictionary.com: a system of political or social philosophy that rejects all forms of religious faith and worship

In the United States, the ordinary public discourse of our citizens and their right to free expression in the public square is no more subject to a secularist preference than it is to any particular theological or political preference. Get used to it.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/16/2009 7:01:39 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 313

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/16/2009 8:13:00 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Found these definitions here.

Excuse me, but "definitions" are found in dictionaries. Since that appears to be a new concept for you, let me help...

hyperdictionary.com: a doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations

dictionary.com: a system of political or social philosophy that rejects all forms of religious faith and worship

In the United States, the ordinary public discourse of our citizens and their right to free expression in the public square is no more subject to a secularist preference than it is to any particular theological or political preference. Get used to it.

K.

Ah, I see you cannot resist your sarcasm and aggressive style despite my offer of a civil dialogue. I can only speculate it is a character imperative steeped in misplaced arrogance or a bit of evasion for fear of dealing with the issues, maybe a little of both. What is it about secularism that frightens you so and leaves you unable to resist ad hominum attacks and derision to someone who has offered civil dialogue?

Anyone with an education of sorts can see that your reliance on dictionary definitions is a pale stab at discussion as your definitions are puny shadows of the ones I offered you. They say pretty much the same thing in a more simplistic form. Maybe I gave you too much credit. Sorry, I cannot resist returning the ad hominum slander.

You seemed to have modified your position. Previously you carried the flag for freedom of religion. Then you lamented having secularism shoved into your face. In this message you are a champion of free expression implying I think that somehow my position is to abridge free speech. As I recall, we were talking about the establishment of religion guarantee, which I pointed out to you was not absolute, rather subject to the wall of separation. Therafter you complained about Secularism, so I offered two definitions for the sake of clarity.

Well, you offered to help didn't you? So, let me call upon that offer. Help me understand just exactly what your complaint is.

Do you fear the loss of religious freedom? Do you fear the imposition of secularism? Do you fear the loss of free speech? Perhaps all of these? Please make your point and I will be happy to engage with you, although i would prefer we do so without the acid tone if you can manage that.

Have a good night.

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 314

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/16/2009 8:20:57 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

As I recall, we were talking about the establishment of religion guarantee...

Your recall is faulty. You were whining about having to encounter religion in the public square, to wit: "Go pray, brother. But do it some place where I do not have to encounter it and I in turn will not trouble you." That is the statement I quoted in my reply, that is what I was responding to, that is the position I object to, and I will add, for clarity, that religionists who object to encountering expressions of atheism in the public square are invited to take a long walk off a short pier right behind you.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/16/2009 8:41:50 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 315

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/16/2009 8:40:42 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

As I recall, we were talking about the establishment of religion guarantee...

Your recall is faulty. You were whining about having to encounter religion in the public square, to wit: "Go pray, brother. But do it some place where I do not have to encounter it and I in turn will not trouble you." That is the statement I quoted in my reply, that is what I was responding to, that is the position I object to, and I will add, for clarity, that religionists who object to encountering expressions of atheism in the public square are invited to take a long walk off a short pier right behind you.

K.

I believe my recall is quite accurate. If you go back to your post #309 you will see where you responded to my call for a secular arena by invoking the establishment of religion clause and the free exercise thereof. That is still my complaint. I welcome the discussion of religion and non-religion in public discourse, the pros and cons, etc, but not the free exercise thereof. I do strenuously object to that and I do not consider that an abridgement of freedom of speech. Do you?

Now are you saying I should not be able to express my non-believer's opinions in public debate? What do you mean by expression of atheism? We do not exercise any sort of ritual. We merely express opinion. Is that offensive to you?

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 316

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/16/2009 8:47:26 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

As I recall, we were talking about the establishment of religion guarantee...

Your recall is faulty. You were whining about having to encounter religion in the public square, to wit: "Go pray, brother. But do it some place where I do not have to encounter it and I in turn will not trouble you." That is the statement I quoted in my reply, that is what I was responding to, that is the position I object to, and I will add, for clarity, that religionists who object to encountering expressions of atheism in the public square are invited to take a long walk off a short pier right behind you.

K.

I believe my recall is quite accurate. If you go back to your post #309 you will see where you responded to my call for a secular arena by invoking the establishment of religion clause and the free exercise thereof. That is still my complaint. I welcome the discussion of religion and non-religion in public discourse, the pros and cons, etc, but not the free exercise thereof. I do strenuously object to that and I do not consider that an abridgement of freedom of speech. Do you?

Now are you saying I should not be able to express my non-believer's opinions in public debate? What do you mean by expression of atheism? We do not exercise any sort of ritual. We merely express opinion. Is that offensive to you?

Let me get this right. What you are saying is, anyone can talk about what they believe in all day and night, but the minute they practice their belief, you take exception.

_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 317

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/16/2009 8:50:06 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I welcome the discussion of religion and non-religion in public discourse, the pros and cons, etc, but not the free exercise thereof. I do strenuously object to that and I do not consider that an abridgement of freedom of speech.

Then I have understood your position correctly, and my comments stand as written.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 318

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/16/2009 9:04:07 PM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Let me get this right. What you are saying is, anyone can talk about what they believe in all day and night, but the minute they practice their belief, you take exception.

Hello tazzygirl. That is not at all what i have been saying. Look back over the dialogue i have been having with K and you will see we were discussing the Religious Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and my point was that Thomas Jefferson said that clause erected a wall of separation between church and state. Partly that was to protect smaller religions from the establishment of a State religion. K maintained that the First Amendment established the right to the free exercise of religion. I agree with that but my point then is that it is not an absolute right just as shouting fire in a crowded theater is not protected by free speech. Case Law and precedent has placed limitation on the exercise of religion, most famously prayer in the public school and creches (sp?) on the City Hall lawn and religious displays in schools, etc. So, I do not object to the practice of religion in churches and homes but I do object to it in Civic activities....the so-called public square. And I believe the Courts have pretty much upheld that point of view.

Hope i made myself clear. Being an old dude, it is past my bedtime. I will be back tomorrow however. Goodnight.

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 319

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 11/16/2009 9:06:36 PM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I welcome the discussion of religion and non-religion in public discourse, the pros and cons, etc, but not the free exercise thereof. I do strenuously object to that and I do not consider that an abridgement of freedom of speech.

Then I have understood your position correctly, and my comments stand as written.

K.

Fair enough.

Goodnight.

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 320

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