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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 7:47:44 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
the founder knew it was a load of crap, and so (presumably) do the people who are currently running it. It's a power structure, a personality and a con trick, but it isn't a religion and never was.

I'd question how you know what the founder knew? I've heard evidence for the scam theory, I've also heard evidence that the founder was mentally ill. Either way why would that disqualify it as a religion? There are theories that Paul was a scammer and that the conversion of Constantine was a scam, does that mean that Catholicism or Christianity in general aren't religions?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Hell, a lot of the people who go into it join up to a front organisation like Narcanon or one of the therapy cults under false pretences, don't they?

Like I said before I'm not pro-Scientology, however how is that different from Alcoholics Anonymous and why would pious fraud cause a group not to be a religion?


(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 8:27:13 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
people who distort religion are still considered religious....

I'm unaware of any definition of the word religion which would cause that sentence to make sense. Under the definitions I've seen that's nonsense, I think that's the primary issue we are having at the moment.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/religion
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

If your statement was people who distort Christianity are still considered Christian.... then you could have a valid point. When peoples religious beliefs don't agree with yours that doesn't mean they aren't part of a religion it just means they aren't part of your religion.



quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And i believe these parents abdicated their responsibilities long before their daughter died.  I also agree they were let off too lightly.  I also believe those with them should have been held just as accountable.  If we had held them to the same standards as the parents, they may not have sat back so long and waited to watch that girl die.

What accountability to you give to those who were with the parents who you considered "brain washed"?  they werent alone... someone already mentioned they were child-like... 

Any time a child slowly and painfully wastes to death over the course of a month there's plenty of blame to go around.





(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 11:13:39 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
the founder knew it was a load of crap, and so (presumably) do the people who are currently running it. It's a power structure, a personality and a con trick, but it isn't a religion and never was.

I'd question how you know what the founder knew? I've heard evidence for the scam theory, I've also heard evidence that the founder was mentally ill. Either way why would that disqualify it as a religion? There are theories that Paul was a scammer and that the conversion of Constantine was a scam, does that mean that Catholicism or Christianity in general aren't religions?

Hubbard, quite famously announced that he was going to form a religion because he was fed up of being paid half a cent a word for his fiction. He quite possibly wasn't playing with a full deck, but there's no evidence that he took one word of his mind fuck cult's teachings even remotely seriously. It's one of the things both Bare Faced Messiah and A Piece Of The Blue Sky agree on.
As for the other, Paul may well have been a scammer, but Christ seems to have pretty serious about what he was doing.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Hell, a lot of the people who go into it join up to a front organisation like Narcanon or one of the therapy cults under false pretences, don't they?

Like I said before I'm not pro-Scientology, however how is that different from Alcoholics Anonymous and why would pious fraud cause a group not to be a religion?



You miss my point: it's different from alcholics anonymous because the clients are encouraged to take a dianetics course. There are a lot of front groups who try to pass that off as a form of therapy and don't mention Hubbard or $cientology at all. Now admittedly the Reverend Moon used to do that, but only for fund gathering organisations. If you can go through a full course of audits without even hearing $cientology mentioned, then that does beg the question of how seriously anybody in a senior position takes all of that crap about Xemu, engrams thetans and whatever else, doesn't it?

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(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 1:34:01 PM   
MasterJack53


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Status: offline 		as a fundamentalist Baptist I agre 100% that they should be prosicuted. I know they believed God would heal their child but we know God gave doctors their knowledge and through them He heals most often. While I grieve their loss, they must be held accountable. Same way, any minister or other church member or leader should be held accountable as an accomplice.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 2:31:39 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
people who distort religion are still considered religious....

I'm unaware of any definition of the word religion which would cause that sentence to make sense. Under the definitions I've seen that's nonsense, I think that's the primary issue we are having at the moment.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/religion
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

If your statement was people who distort Christianity are still considered Christian.... then you could have a valid point. When peoples religious beliefs don't agree with yours that doesn't mean they aren't part of a religion it just means they aren't part of your religion.



quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And i believe these parents abdicated their responsibilities long before their daughter died.  I also agree they were let off too lightly.  I also believe those with them should have been held just as accountable.  If we had held them to the same standards as the parents, they may not have sat back so long and waited to watch that girl die.

What accountability to you give to those who were with the parents who you considered "brain washed"?  they werent alone... someone already mentioned they were child-like... 

Any time a child slowly and painfully wastes to death over the course of a month there's plenty of blame to go around.







You missed the point i was making ....

quote:

Christianity are still considered Christian.... then you could have a valid point. When peoples religious beliefs don't agree with yours that doesn't mean they aren't part of a religion it just means they aren't part of your religion


By no stretch of the imagination do i consider Jim Jones a christian, nor the Bakers... nor Jimmy Swaggart... ect ect ect.  And its simple.  a christian follows the commandments.  one is.. do not steal.  well, we saw what happened with PTL.  another is do not lie.  ahem... Swaggart falls short in that catergory .  And im sure we all recall what Jim Jones did.

To make a mistake is one thing.  To deliberately do what these people did, with the knowledge of "christianity" that they possessed, is another.

My analogy was... when someone betrays this country, they are no longer considered an american... they are now traitors.

Yet, watching these boards, if someone betrays their faith, they are still considered whatever faith they betrayed, especially those who hate religion in any form.  It doesnt work like that.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 8:35:42 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You missed the point i was making ....

tazzy, the issue I have with you is that you often can't manage to stick to whatever topic you were on long enough to actually make a point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
By no stretch of the imagination do i consider Jim Jones a christian, nor the Bakers... nor Jimmy Swaggart... ect ect ect.  And its simple.  a christian follows the commandments.  one is.. do not steal.  well, we saw what happened with PTL.  another is do not lie.  ahem... Swaggart falls short in that catergory .  And im sure we all recall what Jim Jones did.

That's nice thanks for sharing, but this isn't what we were talking about last post.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 10/22/2009 8:37:25 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 8:39:37 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJack53
but we know God gave doctors their knowledge

No.....no we don't know that.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 8:52:15 PM   
MasterJack53


Posts: 89
Joined: 1/24/2006
Status: offline 		by we, I meant those of us who believe in God and Jesus.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 9:03:05 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You missed the point i was making ....

tazzy, the issue I have with you is that you often can't manage to stick to whatever topic you were on long enough to actually make a point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
By no stretch of the imagination do i consider Jim Jones a christian, nor the Bakers... nor Jimmy Swaggart... ect ect ect.  And its simple.  a christian follows the commandments.  one is.. do not steal.  well, we saw what happened with PTL.  another is do not lie.  ahem... Swaggart falls short in that catergory .  And im sure we all recall what Jim Jones did.

That's nice thanks for sharing, but this isn't what we were talking about last post.


Thread

Believer(s) of god are plague to this world.

Every argument made against people you believe are believers, i have been shooting down.

allow me to be clearer

Just because someone states they believe in god, doesnt make it true.

Just because someone claims the devil made them do it, doesnt abdicate their responsibilities.

You can sit there and point to all the deaths related to religion, and i can point to how religion was used to justify their deaths.

But, eh, you wont understand that concept.  Its not within the scope of what you wish to believe.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 9:47:45 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJack53
by we, I meant those of us who believe in God and Jesus.

Then he had better instruct them physicians better than he did before, for he botched it the first time. Please let him also instruct all of those physicians how to cure my herpes and how to reactivate my immune system again.

And while he is at it, let him also introduce ice cream a couple of thousand years earlier than he did the previous time.

(in reply to MasterJack53)
Profile   Post #: 270
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 10:48:38 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		tazzygirl you are just beating your head against a wall... some people find it hard to admit they at least could be wrong. They will argue beyond reason and feel if you don't agree with them you are attacking them.

Why bother?

We can at least admit doubt at times without abdicating religion but some insist on trying to prove what cannot be proven, that God does not exist. They are just as intolerant with those that think otherwise then the fanatic believers they rant against.

They are an island in their own lineage...Their ancestors would not agree. With the nature of mans need for God their offspring down the line may not agree. Myself I let my children live and learn and feel and make their own choice about belief in God.

I’ll not love them less or more for their choice but if they choose to believe I would not think them a plague. They will learn charity…love… compassion and forgiveness, as do most people of religion. Even if they don’t believe they will not be intolerant of those that do.

Butch


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(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/23/2009 5:07:56 AM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Every argument made against people you believe are believers, i have been shooting down.

That's seriously what you think has been happening........wow.


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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/23/2009 9:20:52 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		Pentecostals, Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses very clearly hold a number of beliefs(despite claims to the contrary). I'm not claiming that every belief is equally harmful, the examples I've used are clearly out towards the harmful end of the scale. What I am trying to say is that faith is not a virtue. The news articles I brought up are extreme examples of how being sure of what one hopes for (faith according to Hebrews 11:1) instead of weighting the actual evidence for and against a decision can lead people to make extremely poor decisions.

I hope that the beliefs of the people of faith I’m taking to aren’t as harmful to themselves or others as my examples I’ve posted. I also hope they can see that the moment one becomes convinced that their hopes and their knowledge are the same thing they have disconnected from reality in the same manner as those people in my examples.


(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/23/2009 2:08:52 PM   
MasterJack53


Posts: 89
Joined: 1/24/2006
Status: offline 		is not really in reply to your assinine statement, it is a serious question Id like to get an answer to. I do not mean it to be funny, sarcastic or demeaning. I know there are college degrees in Divinity, I know a person can go to seminaries and be ordained, my question is, is there a degree for atheism or a place those who are atheists go to learn what they talk about? I do see that some of the responders here in favor of God not existing use as technique we used in Military INtel, if you cant dazzle emn with brilliance, baffle them with bull shit,

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/23/2009 7:59:06 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJack53
my question is, is there a degree for atheism or a place those who are atheists go to learn what they talk about?

No, atheists do not bother with such things. I seem to recall that humanists and communists do, but if so then they are not atheists.

(in reply to MasterJack53)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/24/2009 6:14:34 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
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Status: offline 		A while back a poster claimed he belonged to a site for athiests to discuss how best to disprove religion. He said there was a whole list of links to refute common bible beliefs. Now I didn't bother going to check out the site, but someone here might remember more about it.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/24/2009 6:32:44 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		That was also the premise for the lawsuit in prison, that the men could not gather like the religious groups to discuss atheism.

So do they or dont they?

I dont think even they know.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 277
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/24/2009 7:34:25 PM   
Brain


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I just wanted to apologize to everyone for what I said when I started this thread. I don't believe what I said applies to all religious people, I should have been more thoughtful before I spoke. I called myself Brain but most of the time I think I'm pretty stupid. At the time I was upset with suicide bombings and of course it is such a waste because so many innocent people have died. I'm also a little surprised that this thread is still going but it's nice to be able to tell people right now I am more relaxed these days as I am optimistic a health care bill will pass before the end of the year with a public option to increase competition and reduce costs. As far as religious matters are concerned however that may take a 1000 years to settle down but eventually peace will prevail.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Well, gee.  Thanks Brain.  never thought i would be considered a plague.


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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/24/2009 7:47:00 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		From what I understand about it - not much - suicide bombers do not blow up because of religion, but because of extreme pressure exerted on them. They are used by others as cannon fodder.

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Profile   Post #: 279
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/24/2009 8:49:44 PM   
chiaThePet


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Thanks for that Brain, it is appreciated.

I say we send one out from each side to that final frontier.

They can't come home until they explore every nook and cranny of our existence.

They can only return if they have proof positive that God does, or does not exist.

In the meantime, we eat their food, wear their clothes, and sleep in their beds.

All while giving thanks of course.

chia* (the pet)




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You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

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