RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard'

RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

DesFIP -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/17/2009 5:46:58 AM)
Loki, you are reminding me of that JP who refuses to perform interracial marriages because he doesn't approve of them. His feelings don't matter when it comes to upholding the law. And you are arguing the same thing. That since you don't approve of women in the military the law about medical care, about not being attacked by fellow soldiers should not be upheld. You aren't the CIC, you don't make the law. A commander who is told to retreat yet stays there and gets all his troops killed anyway doesn't get away scot free because he didn't like the order. He's supposed to obey it. We went through desegragation of the armed services over 60 years ago with Harry Truman as President. This is the same thing except with gender instead of race. Whether or not you like it, this country has constitutional amendments against bigotry. Deal with it.

Loki45 -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/17/2009 5:48:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly so? again...she developed PTSD from her experiences. It is not up to you to determine the reason was not good enough. So.....she couldn't hack it. In my opinion, and in general (yes general) terms, a woman can "hack it" with far less frequency than a man. Yes, they can be cops, firemen, etc. But all I've seen growing up is how they should be on the front lines because they are no weaker than the men, then I see stories like this. I also see the nation grind to a fucking halt when one girl in that war is "captured" and the worst is feared, yet it's business as usual when it happens to a male soldier. Basically, I want those who cry out for equality to put up or shut up. Either you have equality in EVERY sense of the word, or you don't and you accept it. If women soldiers can get PTSD from being 'yelled at' and 'almost' firing their weapon...they don't need to be over there. If women can't be drafted, if women's fitness requirements are less than a man's, if any number of other factors mean they need some sort of special consideration....then they don't need to be over there. Period. Call me a sexist ass. Hell, I call myself one. I'm proud of it. I'm just not the one whose bitching about "equality" only when it comes with good things and moaning about it when the bad things come.

Loki45 -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/17/2009 5:52:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Loki, you are reminding me of that JP who refuses to perform interracial marriages because he doesn't approve of them. His feelings don't matter when it comes to upholding the law. Actually, I agree with that guy's right to do that, and that's for another thread. I will say, though, that he's not saying they can't marry. He's saying he won't do it.. There's a difference. A judge isn't required to perform a marriage. Just as a doctor in a religious hospital can say they don't want to give birth control pills, a judge can decide not to perform a wedding. But anway, back on topic... quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP And you are arguing the same thing. That since you don't approve of women in the military the law about medical care, about not being attacked by fellow soldiers should not be upheld. I'm saying nothing of the kind. But those laws would be irrelevant if they weren't there to being with. Laws are laws and rapists should be prosecuted and have their nuts ripped off in front of a live studio audience. But women don't belong over there. Two different things altogether. quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP You aren't the CIC, you don't make the law. A commander who is told to retreat yet stays there and gets all his troops killed anyway doesn't get away scot free because he didn't like the order. He's supposed to obey it. We went through desegragation of the armed services over 60 years ago with Harry Truman as President. This is the same thing except with gender instead of race. Whether or not you like it, this country has constitutional amendments against bigotry. Deal with it. And with it comes what I was talking about -- equality ALL the time, not just when it suits the women. If women want to be soldiers, I say make them meet ALL the fitness requirements the men do. I say make them responsible for their own shit when they go. I say that if they can't take 'being yelled at' then they should not be there.

Loki45 -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/17/2009 6:00:39 AM)
By the way, DesFIP, I just re-read the original article I posted, and it doesn't say that the military is supposed to provide tampons. It says: "Some women have raised concerns over privacy, and adequate access to feminine hygiene products or gender-specific prescriptions such as birth control pills while in theater," the report said. The Pentagon has acknowledged that a problem exists. "Some line commanders, including officers and senior enlisted personnel, may not understand the importance of women's health care," the report says." The simple fact is that a deployed environment is unpredictable. That's why the deployment orders I spoke of insist you bring whatever you think you need. The base you end up at may not even be fully established and thus, the supplies simply aren't there and can't get there for awhile.

sirsholly -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/17/2009 6:53:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 "Some women have raised concerns over privacy, and adequate access to feminine hygiene products or gender-specific prescriptions such as birth control pills while in theater," the report said. The Pentagon has acknowledged that a problem exists. "Some line commanders, including officers and senior enlisted personnel, may not understand the importance of women's health care," the report says." The simple fact is that a deployed environment is unpredictable. That's why the deployment orders I spoke of insist you bring whatever you think you need. The base you end up at may not even be fully established and thus, the supplies simply aren't there and can't get there for awhile. well suuuure. How is a woman supposed to obtain a years supply of birth control? If the Dr did write the rx, i seriously doubt there is an insurance co (including VA healthcare) that will fill it for a year. Not to mention the conditions the medication would be kept in that could impare its effectiveness.

Level -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/17/2009 7:05:00 AM)
quote: Loki wrote: And men have, do and will face far, FAR worse than that every day over there. Which means, if yelling at her fucked her up that badly, she had NO BUSINESS over there to begin with. I agree regarding her, specifically. And, in general, I don't like the idea of women assuming every role that the military has to offer. However, I'm thinking at least some of them handle it, and well, thinking about the Israelies here, if I remember right.

Loki45 -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/17/2009 1:54:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly well suuuure. How is a woman supposed to obtain a years supply of birth control? If the Dr did write the rx, i seriously doubt there is an insurance co (including VA healthcare) that will fill it for a year. Not to mention the conditions the medication would be kept in that could impare its effectiveness. That's not the military's problem, now is it? How is any soldier supposed to get and store a year's supply of his meds? He has to find a way. To do otherwise is to violate the instructions given for his or her deployment. Meds aren't just a "woman's problem." EVERYONE who deploys gets the same orders and the same instructions. Only the women are the ones bitching about it.

Loki45 -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/17/2009 1:57:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level I agree regarding her, specifically. And, in general, I don't like the idea of women assuming every role that the military has to offer. However, I'm thinking at least some of them handle it, and well, thinking about the Israelies here, if I remember right. Exactly. The other nations who embrace their women in service do so without the same 'kid gloves' that we use for ours. Those who can hack it on par with the men, can hack it. Those who cannot, do not get combat roles. They do not, however, 'dumb down' the requirements or coddle their women. The women in those nations' mlitaries who serve without the same problems our women face do so because they EARNED it. I'll say this: I've freely admitted on more than one occasion that I'm a misogynistic asshole who doesn't think women belong in our armed forces. But even I wouldn't fuck with a female Israeli soldier. They don't get to be Israeli soldiers because their hands are held, they get to be soldiers because they can and do kick the shit out of the men just as much as vice versa.

variation30 -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/17/2009 2:07:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi I've gotten yelled at walking past constructions sites, can I claim PTSD now? only if you're a woman.

Irishknight -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/18/2009 8:44:10 AM)
I've served beside men and women in the military. I've seen men who were weak and should never have been there and I've seen women who were tougher than that shit they use to make airplane black boxes. I learned to judge each soldier or sailor by their own merit. What I'm seeing from this sgt tells me that she should never have been over there. The situation she describes is the expected situation over there. It is the lowest on the food chain of "bad things." Hell, I've had that happen to me over here without an armed convoy to back me up. If she truly is suffering from PTSD from that event, then I blame the Army for coddling her for that long anyway. As someone pointed out earlier, we have different standards for men and women in many things in the military. The very fact that men have to do over twice as many pushups and situps and have 3 minutes less in which to run their 2 miles during physical fitness tests is bs. They are training the women to be less capable, not equal. They are not preparing them for what is likely to come as part and parcel of being a soldier. Having lived for the majority of my life with a vietnam vet who suffers from ptsd, if this woman is not just trying to ride the VA disability train, I feel for her. Of course, if as I am inclined to believe, she is just trying to milk the system then she has only made it harder for every real case of ptsd that will follow. If she is claiming that being yelled at made her come home, abuse drugs (from the article), and not get a job, then I say she's full of shit. My father managed to hold a job for 40 years while dealing with combat related ptsd to the point that he would sometimes slip back in his mind to Vietnam and those around him were in serious fucking danger for thier lives. He never abused drugs because of it. Even with all of the problems ptsd brought with it, he kept a roof over our heads, food on our table and clothes on our backs. PTSD did not cause this woman to abuse drugs and be fucking lazy. She made that choice for herself just like when she chose to join the service. And,since it was asked in an earlier post, I can guaranty that she made that choice because there hasn't been a draft since Vietnam. Today's military is 100% volunteer. Even my friend who was given the choice of jail or military had a choice.

ghitaPVH -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/18/2009 9:07:40 AM)
Wait...why should a women NEED a years supply of birth control while over there? Who the hell are they fucking? I thought fraternization was against regs? As the wife of a man who has served in 35 countries and completed 7 combat tours, 4 of which were in the Gulf, 3 of which he still wont discuss with me....I agree, PTSD is a very real condition. But to claim being YELLED at!!!??? Im going with the decision that its actually her Sergeants, Commanding Officers, and training instructors who are at fault for this one. If they hadnt determined by the time she went over there that she wasnt strong enough to handle YELLING at, its the Army's fault for not preparing her and weeding her out. Boot Camp is hell for a reason. Training is hell for a reason. DI's yell at recruits for a reason, they run their minds and bodies ragged for a reason. It isnt only to instill discipline, its to harden you to things like..duh..being YELLED at. Its a war zone folks...not a cocktail party. People are going to be unfriendly!!! You are going to come back changed. You are going to come back a bit antsy and shell shocked... me being the sadistic bastard that I am, occasionally throw firecrackers under my Sirs chair while he's sleeping. I make sure he's unarmed first though....its a good thing I can run fast.... My Sir spent 24 years in the Military, 11 in the Corps, and 13 in the Army. I can guarentee you his time in wasnt all fun and games. he didnt always get the things he needed (uhm, like armor and ammo....can we PLEASE do something about making sure all our guys have AMMO before we worry about supplying birth control???!!!). He occasionally got yelled at. He occasionally got shot at. He occasionally got shot. He once even spent 4 days with his best friends insides dried to his clothes.... And might I make mention that after ALL of this, and the past two years home unable to get a job because nothing he ever did in the military qualifies him to do anything civilian apparently...he hasnt complained once. Even when the Army decided he no longer gets 100% medical benefits and we are sitting here knowing we still have 11 years to go before he will ever be able to claim any retirement benefits. He didnt DO any of it for benefits. He did it because it needed to be done. He went into the Military knowing he might get yelled at. He went in knowing he might get shot at. He went in knowing he might get shot. He didnt cry about it when it happened.

xBullx -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/18/2009 9:58:05 AM)
I haven't read this entire thread yet so perhaps these points have been touched on but: The only two things that disturb me in this article are the comments about sexual assault (that was always a complaint of mine as they integrated an all men's club. I grow weary of the demand to suppress the natural instincts of men while we seemingly expand the virtues and privilege of women.) Now I'm not advocating misbehavior, but I don't believe this issue is as simple as MEN must learn to control themselves. Anyone ever serving in an extended combat environment can tell you the multiple anxieties associated with deployment. The second thing is the last comment about females exiting the service sooner than men; that is the case in all labor sects. The maternal instinct in the majority of women is to do just that....stay home and tend her babies. Again this isn't rocket science folks. Nothing complicated needing addressed in this case.

AnimusRex -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/18/2009 10:08:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 Basically, I want those who cry out for equality to put up or shut up. Either you have equality in EVERY sense of the word, or you don't and you accept it. If women soldiers can get PTSD from being 'yelled at' and 'almost' firing their weapon...they don't need to be over there. If women can't be drafted, if women's fitness requirements are less than a man's, if any number of other factors mean they need some sort of special consideration....then they don't need to be over there. Period. Call me a sexist ass. Hell, I call myself one. I'm proud of it. I'm just not the one whose bitching about "equality" only when it comes with good things and moaning about it when the bad things come. OK, so I combed through this entire thread looking for coherent point to the story. Basically, Loki, you read a story about a woman who appears to have wussed out, and shouln't have been put in that spot. Probably true- I have heard of plenty of soldiers who aren't cut out for military service or comabt, and rightfully wash out. Done with that point. Your bigger point, of course, wasn't to occupy bandwidth and time to argue that a single woman should have been scrubbed out of basic training. Your point appears to be that women in general demanded military service, while being unable to hack it. What is interesting, is that soldiering in this war is COIN; counter insurgency is focused less on shooting than diplomacy and winning "hearts and minds"; a soldier is as likely to have to mediate a dispute between taxi drivers and goat herders, or resolve a villager's demand for an electric generator, than get into hand-to-hand combat. In other words, our entire strategy in Af-Pak is based on personal relationship skills, cooperation and collaboration skills....the skills that women are much better at doing than men. I am not interested in debating Feminism vs Patriarchy (a look at my profile will key you in on my ideas) but I do acknowledge that men and women have different skills and abilities. And this war is needing at least as much of women's skills as men's. So your first point may be correct, but your broader point is on shaky ground.

sirsholly -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/18/2009 10:21:26 AM)
quote: The only two things that disturb me in this article are the comments about sexual assault (that was always a complaint of mine as they integrated an all men's club. I grow weary of the demand to suppress the natural instincts of men while we seemingly expand the virtues and privilege of women.) Now I'm not advocating misbehavior, but I don't believe this issue is as simple as MEN must learn to control themselves. "Well gee YourHonor...we were in a fox-hole and i was WEARY of suppressing my natural instincts. I know she said no and is accusing me of rape, but hey...she wanted to be a member of the Mens Club." [8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|]

variation30 -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/18/2009 11:15:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight Even my friend who was given the choice of jail or military had a choice. that's like saying a rape victim with a knife to her throat has a choice. my post wasn't making generalizations about female soldiers (though I would think that men would be more capable soldiers in any war...and that women would be more suited for a defensive war than an offensive one), it was that if a man claimed ptsd because people yelled threats at him he would not be taken as seriously as a woman.

xBullx -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/18/2009 12:05:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: The only two things that disturb me in this article are the comments about sexual assault (that was always a complaint of mine as they integrated an all men's club. I grow weary of the demand to suppress the natural instincts of men while we seemingly expand the virtues and privilege of women.) Now I'm not advocating misbehavior, but I don't believe this issue is as simple as MEN must learn to control themselves. "Well gee YourHonor...we were in a fox-hole and i was WEARY of suppressing my natural instincts. I know she said no and is accusing me of rape, but hey...she wanted to be a member of the Mens Club." [8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|] Trust me holly..........if I or most any man/warrior I knew were the man in the field you would be completely safe, at least where sexual interest or conduct would be concerned. What type of eye roll do you have for that one?

Loki45 -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/18/2009 12:18:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight I've served beside men and women in the military. I've seen men who were weak and should never have been there and I've seen women who were tougher than that shit they use to make airplane black boxes. I learned to judge each soldier or sailor by their own merit. What I'm seeing from this sgt tells me that she should never have been over there. The situation she describes is the expected situation over there. It is the lowest on the food chain of "bad things." Hell, I've had that happen to me over here without an armed convoy to back me up. If she truly is suffering from PTSD from that event, then I blame the Army for coddling her for that long anyway. As someone pointed out earlier, we have different standards for men and women in many things in the military. The very fact that men have to do over twice as many pushups and situps and have 3 minutes less in which to run their 2 miles during physical fitness tests is bs. They are training the women to be less capable, not equal. They are not preparing them for what is likely to come as part and parcel of being a soldier. Having lived for the majority of my life with a vietnam vet who suffers from ptsd, if this woman is not just trying to ride the VA disability train, I feel for her. Of course, if as I am inclined to believe, she is just trying to milk the system then she has only made it harder for every real case of ptsd that will follow. If she is claiming that being yelled at made her come home, abuse drugs (from the article), and not get a job, then I say she's full of shit. My father managed to hold a job for 40 years while dealing with combat related ptsd to the point that he would sometimes slip back in his mind to Vietnam and those around him were in serious fucking danger for thier lives. He never abused drugs because of it. Even with all of the problems ptsd brought with it, he kept a roof over our heads, food on our table and clothes on our backs. PTSD did not cause this woman to abuse drugs and be fucking lazy. She made that choice for herself just like when she chose to join the service. And,since it was asked in an earlier post, I can guaranty that she made that choice because there hasn't been a draft since Vietnam. Today's military is 100% volunteer. Even my friend who was given the choice of jail or military had a choice. Very well said. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]

Loki45 -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/18/2009 12:20:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH Wait...why should a women NEED a years supply of birth control while over there? Who the hell are they fucking? I thought fraternization was against regs? Another very, very good point. quote: ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH As the wife of a man who has served in 35 countries and completed 7 combat tours, 4 of which were in the Gulf, 3 of which he still wont discuss with me....I agree, PTSD is a very real condition. But to claim being YELLED at!!!??? Im going with the decision that its actually her Sergeants, Commanding Officers, and training instructors who are at fault for this one. If they hadnt determined by the time she went over there that she wasnt strong enough to handle YELLING at, its the Army's fault for not preparing her and weeding her out. Boot Camp is hell for a reason. Training is hell for a reason. DI's yell at recruits for a reason, they run their minds and bodies ragged for a reason. It isnt only to instill discipline, its to harden you to things like..duh..being YELLED at. Its a war zone folks...not a cocktail party. People are going to be unfriendly!!! You are going to come back changed. You are going to come back a bit antsy and shell shocked... me being the sadistic bastard that I am, occasionally throw firecrackers under my Sirs chair while he's sleeping. I make sure he's unarmed first though....its a good thing I can run fast.... My Sir spent 24 years in the Military, 11 in the Corps, and 13 in the Army. I can guarentee you his time in wasnt all fun and games. he didnt always get the things he needed (uhm, like armor and ammo....can we PLEASE do something about making sure all our guys have AMMO before we worry about supplying birth control???!!!). He occasionally got yelled at. He occasionally got shot at. He occasionally got shot. He once even spent 4 days with his best friends insides dried to his clothes.... And might I make mention that after ALL of this, and the past two years home unable to get a job because nothing he ever did in the military qualifies him to do anything civilian apparently...he hasnt complained once. Even when the Army decided he no longer gets 100% medical benefits and we are sitting here knowing we still have 11 years to go before he will ever be able to claim any retirement benefits. He didnt DO any of it for benefits. He did it because it needed to be done. He went into the Military knowing he might get yelled at. He went in knowing he might get shot at. He went in knowing he might get shot. He didnt cry about it when it happened. The rest of this is, like the post I complimented just before, very very well said. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]

xBullx -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/18/2009 12:20:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight Even my friend who was given the choice of jail or military had a choice. that's like saying a rape victim with a knife to her throat has a choice. my post wasn't making generalizations about female soldiers (though I would think that men would be more capable soldiers in any war...and that women would be more suited for a defensive war than an offensive one), it was that if a man claimed ptsd because people yelled threats at him he would not be taken as seriously as a woman. Upon the incorporation of both sexes into the services there has been the contest of separate sets of standards and debate over workload shares. The subject is a slippery slope filled with politics, manipulation and appeasement. I frankly don't believe there are many women that are not talking trash or politicking that would want to go to places most of the combat troops go. Sure there are exceptions to every rule, but it isn't these uncommon exceptions that the standards are based upon. So if there are men out there facing heightened risks and dangers shouldn't their risk bear the fruits of reward and no holly I'm not implying the conquest of some damn pussy. Nature, not nations designed the mental make-up and urges of humanity to imply that man made law and the word NO will cover every contingency is ridiculous.

Loki45 -> RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' (10/18/2009 12:23:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx I haven't read this entire thread yet so perhaps these points have been touched on but: The only two things that disturb me in this article are the comments about sexual assault (that was always a complaint of mine as they integrated an all men's club. I grow weary of the demand to suppress the natural instincts of men while we seemingly expand the virtues and privilege of women.) Now I'm not advocating misbehavior, but I don't believe this issue is as simple as MEN must learn to control themselves. Anyone ever serving in an extended combat environment can tell you the multiple anxieties associated with deployment. The second thing is the last comment about females exiting the service sooner than men; that is the case in all labor sects. The maternal instinct in the majority of women is to do just that....stay home and tend her babies. Again this isn't rocket science folks. Nothing complicated needing addressed in this case. More good points. Where were all you guys yesterday? [:D]

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875