Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Can't vs Won't


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Can't vs Won't Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 11:46:27 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I disagree. If I bring a slave into my home and her "will"s and "can"s align with my "do"s, so that I do not have to force her to do anything she would imagine saying "can't" or "won't" to.......I will not see her as being any less a slave or any less submissive.

Not everyone sees M/s or D/s as requiring the s-type to struggle or change who they are.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 10/19/2009 11:48:00 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 11:48:27 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

For some of us, it's not about becoming pleasing so that he never wants to get rid of us. It's about becoming ourselves and being allowed to embrace that.


would a willingness to do such that reflected her real self imply something negative?

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 11:50:18 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

So are you saying that unless there is struggle, there is not "true" submission???

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

So you think submission has to be a struggle?

I am not advocating intentional struggle, but...


"Pain nourishes courage. You can't be brave if you've only had wonderful things happen to you."
- Mary Tyler Moore



_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 11:51:38 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		And where is it written that all of those un-wonderful thing have to come from within the relationship dynamic? Or that whatever pain might exist within, is wanted by those in the relationship, making can't or won't, a moot point?

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 10/19/2009 11:53:21 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 11:52:22 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

For some of us, it's not about becoming pleasing so that he never wants to get rid of us. It's about becoming ourselves and being allowed to embrace that.


would a willingness to do such that reflected her real self imply something negative?

porcelaine


For some people, yes it would. Being asked to 'change', no matter what it is, for some people is a sign of negativity. It says " I am no longer wanting you so become this instead"

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 11:54:41 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

For some of us, it's not about becoming pleasing so that he never wants to get rid of us. It's about becoming ourselves and being allowed to embrace that.

It's certainly your prerogative, but that sounds like s slave whose underlying core focus is "me" rather than "him/her"...at which point I'd be wondering why the word "slave" would apply at all (granted, as I said in my original response in this thread, I am looking at things from an M/s point of view where I expect a slave to be offering up the full extent of surrender possible).

But even with submissives, needing to "be me" to where that is the trump card for every instance of disagreement is just an argument for the 'do me' sub mentality....which is perfectly within anyon'es right to choose. I'm only arguing the irony of wanting to describe one's self in a manner that implies wanting to serve another when, in reality, the serving of another is only really done to the extent that it serve's one's self.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 11:56:44 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		No offense, but most slaves are inherently selfish. They surrender for one reason and one reason only. BECAUSE THEY WANT TO. It is about them and their own desire to surrender. What comes after is up to how those in the relationship wish for it to develop.

< Message edited by IrishMist -- 10/19/2009 11:58:07 AM >

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 11:56:53 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

And where is it written that all of those un-wonderful thing have to come from within the relationship dynamic?

Where is it written that none must come from within the relationship, lest the relationship (or worse, the dominant partner) be accused of the heinous crime of actually trying to mold and build his slave to his wishes (you know...what is supposed to be happening in an M/s relationship)?


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 11:57:00 AM   
Wolf2Bear


Posts: 3204
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I disagree. If I bring a slave into my home and her "will"s and "can"s align with my "do"s, so that I do not have to force her to do anything she would imagine saying "can't" or "won't" to.......I will not see her as being any less a slave or any less submissive.

Not everyone sees M/s or D/s as requiring the s-type to struggle or change who they are.



Yet isn't one of the goals in a d/s relationship is for both to undergo changes in order to further strengthen that relationship? I am thinking, in keeping with the 'can't and 'won't' theme, that when a sub states they can't do this or this that it is also due to their own fear of X or Y. Often that fear is born out of the sub having misconceived notions of the activity or they do not have a knowledge of what it entails thus they are fearing the unknown. It is when the person/sub gains a better understanding of such activity which they originally feared and gained the understanding that the fear is basesles then they change their internal feelings and therefore they change and be more accepting of the desires of the dom to engage in said activity.


_____________________________

~Resident Sadist Approved~

Take the pain
Take the pleasure
I'm the master of both
Close your eyes, not your mind
Let me into your soul
I'm gonna work it 'til your totally blown

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 11:59:20 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

No offense, but slaves are inherently selfish. They surrender for one reason and one reason only. BECAUSE THEY WANT TO. It is about them and their own desire to surrender. What comes after is up to how those in the relationship wish for it to develop.

But they are "selfish" in the sense that they seek to actually defer themselves entirely to the molding hands of another. No quips, no won'ts, no "it's too core a part of my personality to surrender".

At least that selfishness is consistent with the title they are using and what it is generally presumed to imply.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:01:25 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

It says " I am no longer wanting you so become this instead"

If a slave thinks xhe is a better determiner of hir life direction than hir M-type would be, why bother surrendering in the first place?

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:02:10 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

For some people, yes it would. Being asked to 'change', no matter what it is, for some people is a sign of negativity. It says " I am no longer wanting you so become this instead"


how is surrender possible if he is unable to initiate change unless it occurs on her terms? i'm sure there are ways to combat that feeling. but who determines what needs to be altered, the dominant or submissive in this case?

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:05:15 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

And where is it written that all of those un-wonderful thing have to come from within the relationship dynamic?

Where is it written that none must come from within the relationship, lest the relationship (or worse, the dominant partner) be accused of the heinous crime of actually trying to mold and build his slave to his wishes (you know...what is supposed to be happening in an M/s relationship)?



I don't think anyone is saying that none must come from within ANY relationship. I won't even say that it wouldn't come from some future relationship I might have. What I am saying is that it should not be a measure of "better than" which I am am picking up from you. Perhaps I am wrong but that is the feeling I am getting in reading your posts. That somehow if this molding and struggle does not exist, it is not a "true" M/s relationship.

You can certainly have an ideal for YOUR M/s relationship that makes it a real M/s relationship for YOU, but to say that your ideal is what makes mine, Aileen's, Irish's, or anyone else's relationship a real M/s relationship is asinine.

Molding and/or suffering, does not make a relationship a M/s relationship for all. Neither the existence nor lack thereof.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:06:31 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

For some people, yes it would. Being asked to 'change', no matter what it is, for some people is a sign of negativity. It says " I am no longer wanting you so become this instead"


how is surrender possible if he is unable to initiate change unless it occurs on her terms? i'm sure there are ways to combat that feeling. but who determines what needs to be altered, the dominant or submissive in this case?

porcelaine


And, frankly (patience in working out kinks aside) I would end a relationship where such a mentality was presented. And not because I'm not getting what I wanted, but because there would appear to be an inherent suspicion about my directions for her, as a slave, and the relationship. If that questioning is even arising in the first place, things either need to go back to a vanilla square-one or things need to end because I can't devote my complete focus and thoughts on making the best decisions if my thought-processes are getting undermined by someone afraid of losing themselves when they have chosen a relationship role where they handed themselves over in the first place.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:07:40 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I disagree. If I bring a slave into my home and her "will"s and "can"s align with my "do"s, so that I do not have to force her to do anything she would imagine saying "can't" or "won't" to.......I will not see her as being any less a slave or any less submissive.

Not everyone sees M/s or D/s as requiring the s-type to struggle or change who they are.



Yet isn't one of the goals in a d/s relationship is for both to undergo changes in order to further strengthen that relationship? I am thinking, in keeping with the 'can't and 'won't' theme, that when a sub states they can't do this or this that it is also due to their own fear of X or Y. Often that fear is born out of the sub having misconceived notions of the activity or they do not have a knowledge of what it entails thus they are fearing the unknown. It is when the person/sub gains a better understanding of such activity which they originally feared and gained the understanding that the fear is basesles then they change their internal feelings and therefore they change and be more accepting of the desires of the dom to engage in said activity.



For many it may be a goal. But what about the rare instance where two meet and find one another perfect as they are? Are they less M/s because they cannot see anything that needs to change?


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Wolf2Bear)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:07:46 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
I am with Aileen on this one. If a certain style of speaking attracted him the first place, why should I change?
Because I asked it of her. I do not expect Carol to always understand or agree with the decisions I make. Nor do I expect to be static as I steer this relationship towards goals which are constantly unfolding in front of me. I expect her to follow my lead, plain and simple.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:10:32 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
No offense, but most slaves are inherently selfish. They surrender for one reason and one reason only. BECAUSE THEY WANT TO. It is about them and their own desire to surrender. What comes after is up to how those in the relationship wish for it to develop.
*blinks*

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:12:00 PM   
Wolf2Bear


Posts: 3204
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I disagree. If I bring a slave into my home and her "will"s and "can"s align with my "do"s, so that I do not have to force her to do anything she would imagine saying "can't" or "won't" to.......I will not see her as being any less a slave or any less submissive.

Not everyone sees M/s or D/s as requiring the s-type to struggle or change who they are.



Yet isn't one of the goals in a d/s relationship is for both to undergo changes in order to further strengthen that relationship? I am thinking, in keeping with the 'can't and 'won't' theme, that when a sub states they can't do this or this that it is also due to their own fear of X or Y. Often that fear is born out of the sub having misconceived notions of the activity or they do not have a knowledge of what it entails thus they are fearing the unknown. It is when the person/sub gains a better understanding of such activity which they originally feared and gained the understanding that the fear is baseless then they change their internal feelings and therefore they change and be more accepting of the desires of the dom to engage in said activity.



For many it may be a goal. But what about the rare instance where two meet and find one another perfect as they are? Are they less M/s because they cannot see anything that needs to change?



I do agree that there will be the rare instance that both consider each other to be perfect in their eyes. I'd be the last person to determine if their M/s relationship is more or less than the D/s relationship I am forging for myself.

< Message edited by Wolf2Bear -- 10/19/2009 12:13:28 PM >

_____________________________

~Resident Sadist Approved~

Take the pain
Take the pleasure
I'm the master of both
Close your eyes, not your mind
Let me into your soul
I'm gonna work it 'til your totally blown

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:12:08 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

No offense, but most slaves are inherently selfish. They surrender for one reason and one reason only. BECAUSE THEY WANT TO. It is about them and their own desire to surrender. What comes after is up to how those in the relationship wish for it to develop.


i share a different view. my desire to serve is intrinsic and would be exercised in some capacity regardless of my ownership status. however, when i accept his offer i am ceding control to Him. if He chooses to involve me in the decision making process, that is His to determine. we are not equal nor am i his co-pilot either.

i'm a slave and have a defined position in our dynamic. selfishness doesn't enter into my servitude at all. the surrender of self and willingness to embrace His will above my own provides the necessary ingredients for enslavement. it is impossible for me to conceive how this could occur if my motives are individually oriented and neglect to include the One guiding the process.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:15:13 PM   
pyroaquatic


Posts: 1535
Joined: 12/4/2006
From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline 		You cannot mold this!!! :P

You would want me as I am first, not what you can make me. If that was the case any Dominant could go to Sub's R Us and pick up their own block of sub to shape....

but alas.... preferences preferences and more preferences must align so the pieces fit with little resistance.

A slave/submissive can just as easily mold a dominant. It works both ways.

As to the Can Not versus the Will Not....

I cannot sustain flight under my own power.
I cannot breath underwater without gills.

I can dance, but I will look like a doof so I will not.
I can draw, but it comes out looking like a preschooler scribbled (but I still draw anyways...)

There are things that a submissive should NOT do.... especially if medical conditions exist. Otherwise.... in the future.... they can not perform the very thing they should not have done.

I believe this is a question of semantics, but I may be wrong.

Defining a submissive/slave.... the will is not their own. Will of the sub is in the hands of the Dominant.

A Dominant who will not respect a submissives limitations will find they cannot command a sub in the future.

< Message edited by pyroaquatic -- 10/19/2009 12:17:41 PM >

_____________________________

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 100
Page:   <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Can't vs Won't Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094