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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 6:17:26 AM

DomImus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Is there really a difference?

Submissive A says "I can't do electroplay, I have a pacemaker."
Submissive B says "I won't do electroplay, it's a complete turnoff."

The end result is no electroplay so why are there so many posts in the vein of "It's okay if s/he can't do it, but if s/he just won't then it's a problem"?

There are legitimate can'ts. There are no legitimate won'ts.

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Post #: 41

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 6:18:09 AM

Elisabella

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Hmm, I think a lot of extremes are being shown - I wasn't talking about won't in the context of won't do anything, but rather in the context of won't do *this*

Like, let's say Submissive B will do a whole bunch of things s/he doesn't enjoy, to please Dominant A, she just won't do X, Y, and Z. That leaves 23 letters s/he will do, 10 or so of which s/he won't enjoy, and 3 s/he won't.

Presuming all 13 activities-submissive-b-won't-enjoy are equally pleasing to the dominant, does the 3/13 of 'no' outweigh the 10/13 of 'yes'?

Would it change if 10/13 were no and 3/13 were yes? Even though that 3/13 of activities s/he won't enjoy are only a portion of 16/26 yes activities vs 10/26 no activities, and presuming that all 26-activities-of-the-alphabet are equally enjoyable to the dominant?

Plz xcuse mah fraxshuns, I dont know how else to illustrate.

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 6:20:02 AM

Elisabella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Is there really a difference?

Submissive A says "I can't do electroplay, I have a pacemaker."
Submissive B says "I won't do electroplay, it's a complete turnoff."

The end result is no electroplay so why are there so many posts in the vein of "It's okay if s/he can't do it, but if s/he just won't then it's a problem"?

There are legitimate can'ts. There are no legitimate won'ts.

There are plenty of legitimate won'ts. Do you think a submissive loses their humanity (morals, desires, individuality and capacity for reasoning) simply because they've entered a D/s relationship?

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Post #: 43

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 6:24:24 AM

GabrielleSlave

Posts: 616
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

There are legitimate can'ts. There are no legitimate won'ts.

Sorry, but that makes you look like a mindless idiot and i am sure that was not your intention....

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 6:30:17 AM

GabrielleSlave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Hmm, I think a lot of extremes are being shown - I wasn't talking about won't in the context of won't do anything, but rather in the context of won't do *this*

i understand that, which is why i was using my experience to illustrate my point. i am not going to go into what it is that i can't/won't do because it is irrelevant. All i am saying is that a Master has to want to hear and understand what His slave is saying to Him and why. Communication is vital if that relationship is to survive the issue and move on from it. If in the end, i could never do what He has asked of me, then He would still love me and Wwe would still be together; Oour love and life together is more important to Uus than anything else. However, because i am His slave and that is how Wwe choose to live Oour lives, i will get past this so that can't/won't will no longer be an issue.

However, should He ever order me to jump off a cliff, then my answer would be a definitive CAN'T and certaintly WON'T Sir lol! i would not be working my arse off to get past that one...

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 6:48:47 AM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Is there really a difference?

Submissive A says "I can't do electroplay, I have a pacemaker."
Submissive B says "I won't do electroplay, it's a complete turnoff."

The end result is no electroplay so why are there so many posts in the vein of "It's okay if s/he can't do it, but if s/he just won't then it's a problem"?

In my relationship, the end result is not the same. He will do what he wants to do whether I want it or not. The only thing that limits that is whether he thinks it will be harmful to me or to our relationship. "I won't" is not allowed in my relationship. Hence why the distinction of "I can't" versus "I won't" is so important to us.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 7:57:15 AM

devilishpixie

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In my relationship there is a huge diffence between I can't and I wont. By telling him I wont, I am taking the power away from him and the moment I do that I am telling him that I no longer want to be his.

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Post #: 47

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 8:14:13 AM

AnimusRex

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Dominant wants to do something; submissive doesn't;
Dominant needs to decide what is more important:

A.Getting his way, by force if necessary
B. Backing down;

He chooses A, and forces her:
She in turn has a decision-

A. Back down and accept this, or
B. Leave;

If either one of them backs down, they have a further decision, to truly swallow hard and accept this, or let it be added to the secret list of resentment and anger that bad marriages develop.

Since there really isn't a Federal Code of D/s Behavior governing our actions, whether any of this is "legitimate" behavior is moot; We all have decisions, and every decision carries a consequence.

It has been my experience that making decisions is easy. Living with the consequences- now thats the challenge.

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 8:51:46 AM

shadowowl

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there are things I don't want to do and generally I say something like if you really want to do that we can but... such and such reason why we shouldn't.
Certain things I wont do cause they are gross, stupid, unsafe, or against who I am.   Should I need to explain in detail why? if pushed to do something that I really don't want to will result in me leaving said D.     All of this should be sorted out long before play starts or any agreements are made.
Importent things are mentioned up front of what you really love to do and what you really dont' want to do.
for me I find it easier to pick like my top 5 or so and say these are must haves'     the D must have a kink for my top 5 or it wont work. in similar fashion I take into consideration their top 10 and make sure I will do them even if they are not in my top 5 as long as I'm willing to do all of their favorites and bonus if they are things I like too and as long as they are willing to do my top 5 then the rest is just icing and we can work around things.
if Electroplay is one of the D's favorite things and I wont do it or Dont' want to do it then time to move on.   If they try to force it on me well screw them I'll find another D.    If it's something they are curious about and I don't want to do it, well that's up to them if they want to find another sub.
Course I have no problem with electroplay myself, but if they had say a fetish for something I really didn't like which isn't much I would be pretty upset if they forced me to do it since I'm willing to do so many other things and make sure i'ts not one of their favorites before getting involved.

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 9:04:51 AM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I guess though it leads to a whole other question - is a submissive still considered submissive if s/he has hard limits that are based solely in personal preference?

*laughs* Don't you think that would really depend on the same thing? You'll note that I didn't answer what it WAS all about for me. I just said it's not about the activity. I like Level's answer at least at the surface level. But when you get down a few layers into the motivations and reasons is where I'd be able to decide if someone was an acceptable partner for me. Carol wants desparately to be a good life partner for me. THAT is workable. Other things... not so much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Porcelaine
we debate the validity of someone electing to forsake their limits in deference to the dominant. some believe this is impossible to do.

And some people are idiots. SOME people throw themselves on hand grenades to save those around them. You'd think that would be a pretty hard limit, wouldn't you? The fact that most people cannot imagine this sort of self-sacrifice nor can they imagine any good motives for it or positive outcome doesn't mean it's impossible. It actually happens each day all around us. Such things are not accepted well in BDSM-land though despite being rooted in some very common, very normal, and dare I say it, very vanilla human emotions. In Carol's case, it's rooted in love, trust, and respect. This somehow gets twisted around in the lens of BDSM into something dark and sinister.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 9:11:08 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Is there really a difference?

Submissive A says "I can't do electroplay, I have a pacemaker."
Submissive B says "I won't do electroplay, it's a complete turnoff."

The end result is no electroplay so why are there so many posts in the vein of "It's okay if s/he can't do it, but if s/he just won't then it's a problem"?

The end result isn't necessarily the same. The result will depend entirely on what type of relationship you have.

An * I won't* would find me facing the activity at the very next opportunity. It would be foolish for me to say *I won't* because it'd ensure it WOULD happen.*I won't* would be a challenge if it came from ME, to HIM and we both would know it.

An * I can't* is ALWAYS met with a *Why can't you?* From there, he'd expect to hear all and any any relevant information......and then HE decides whether I *can't* or whether I *can*.

As for *what's appropriate* when it comes to language used...that also is entirely subject to the type of relationship you have. There are no specific slavey *shoulds or shouldn'ts*......... there is only you, the person you're speaking to and the accepted way you speak to each other.

Quote...
i understand this is disappointing and know you enjoy this kind of play. what else can i do to please you?
this demeanor is surrendered and takes into account her condition and the fact that style of play will probably be off limits. however, she makes herself available to him in another fashion by offering and demonstrating her desire to please.
Unquote..

In SOME relationships, this would be an acceptable way of speaking but it would be seen as condescending and not a little superfluous here, (putting it lightly) considering he already KNOWS he can do whatever he wants. Pointing out the obvious doesn't go down terribly well here unless I am prepared to hear the dripping sarcastic response..* Thank you for pointing that out ..SLAVE*.

Whatever you do, however you do it , whatever you say, however you say it ....... is up to you and whoever you're with. It's common sense to choose the ways that work and that leave everyone feeling heard, understood and not resentful.

agirl

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 9:20:51 AM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

And some people are idiots. SOME people throw themselves on hand grenades to save those around them. You'd think that would be a pretty hard limit, wouldn't you? The fact that most people cannot imagine this sort of self-sacrifice nor can they imagine any good motives for it or positive outcome doesn't mean it's impossible. It actually happens each day all around us. Such things are not accepted well in BDSM-land though despite being rooted in some very common, very normal, and dare I say it, very vanilla human emotions. In Carol's case, it's rooted in love, trust, and respect. This somehow gets twisted around in the lens of BDSM into something dark and sinister.

i don't deny that what i seek is outside of other people's norm. i'm perfectly okay with that. where my problem exists is the denial of such simply because an individual is unable or unwilling to live in that fashion. i don't find myself making the same attributions on the other side and disallowing submission or those that aren't Owner/property instead. it would seem easiest to accept that the scale is wide and we all fall along it in our respective places. one isn't necessarily better than the other, but what is suitable for us and the personal decisions we've made in our relationships.

porcelaine

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 9:28:04 AM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

In SOME relationships, this would be an acceptable way of speaking but it would be seen as condescending and not a little superfluous here, (putting it lightly) considering he already KNOWS he can do whatever he wants. Pointing out the obvious doesn't go down terribly well here unless I am prepared to hear the dripping sarcastic response..* Thank you for pointing that out ..SLAVE*.

Whatever you do, however you do it , whatever you say, however you say it ....... is up to you and whoever you're with. It's common sense to choose the ways that work and that leave everyone feeling heard, understood and not resentful.

the comments were not intended to be all encompassing, but to reflect that the tone and manner of delivery could be improved. where the submissive was able to articulate her concerns in a fashion that was honest and respectful without giving the appearance of disregard for the dominant's authority and position. the verbiage can be augmented, but its delivery cannot. there's a way to say things and i refute your latter statement. we receive a barrage of threads on this very subject and the unfortunate aftermath when the submissive communicates in a manner that the dominant took exception to. if your proposition was correct i would gather these things would be minimal at best.

porcelaine

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 9:52:53 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

In SOME relationships, this would be an acceptable way of speaking but it would be seen as condescending and not a little superfluous here, (putting it lightly) considering he already KNOWS he can do whatever he wants. Pointing out the obvious doesn't go down terribly well here unless I am prepared to hear the dripping sarcastic response..* Thank you for pointing that out ..SLAVE*.

Whatever you do, however you do it , whatever you say, however you say it ....... is up to you and whoever you're with. It's common sense to choose the ways that work and that leave everyone feeling heard, understood and not resentful.

the comments were not intended to be all encompassing, but to reflect that the tone and manner of delivery could be improved. where the submissive was able to articulate her concerns in a fashion that was honest and respectful without giving the appearance of disregard for the dominant's authority and position. the verbiage can be augmented, but its delivery cannot. there's a way to say things and i refute your latter statement. we receive a barrage of threads on this very subject and the unfortunate aftermath when the submissive communicates in a manner that the dominant took exception to. if your proposition was correct i would gather these things would be minimal at best.

porcelaine

That's why I said .......

Whatever you do, however you do it , whatever you say, however you say it ....... is up to you and whoever you're with. It's common sense to choose the ways that work and that leave everyone feeling heard, understood and not resentful.

If a dom takes exception to the way HIS sub is speaking, then the above generally isn't the case.

agirl

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 10:01:37 AM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
but to reflect that the tone and manner of delivery could be improved.

I agree with agirl. Improved in your mind perhaps. But in my mind and apparently in the mind of agirl's master, your improvements would be seen as downgrades and met with quick correction. To me, the proper "tone" of a slave is to communicate with me clearly, and concisely with as little fol-de-rol as possible. In other words, the same thing I'd ask of anyone else. I am not attempting to replicate some sort of BDSM comic here. For me, at least, your focus on appearance is exactly what I would be correcting. I want Carol to appear to be Carol... the woman I own.

You're edging dangerously close to one true wayism here porcelaine.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 10:04:25 AM

Aileen1968

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Ha. If I talked to him the way porcelaine descibed, he'd probably fall out of his chair laughing. Then he'd proceed to do whatever he wanted to me.
It seems like bad acting.

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 10:08:25 AM

ncbabe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GabrielleSlave

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
Yes there is a difference. That difference lays in the meaning of each word

Can't ~ Can Not = I am not able to do this or be involved in this at this time (Usually followed by an explanation of the reason/s why).

Won't ~ Will Not = I will not do this or be involved in this.

Both are definitive statements but the Can't allows that it may happen under different circumstances.

In my case the can't is the reason why i won't be able to do that activity; the two statements follow on from eachother.

'I won't be able to do that activity' is very different to 'I won't do that activity'. The first is based on capability, and is the same as saying 'I can't do that activity'. The latter suggests refusing to do it due to personal preference.

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 10:18:26 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Hmm, I think a lot of extremes are being shown - I wasn't talking about won't in the context of won't do anything, but rather in the context of won't do *this*

Like, let's say Submissive B will do a whole bunch of things s/he doesn't enjoy, to please Dominant A, she just won't do X, Y, and Z. That leaves 23 letters s/he will do, 10 or so of which s/he won't enjoy, and 3 s/he won't.

Presuming all 13 activities-submissive-b-won't-enjoy are equally pleasing to the dominant, does the 3/13 of 'no' outweigh the 10/13 of 'yes'?

Would it change if 10/13 were no and 3/13 were yes? Even though that 3/13 of activities s/he won't enjoy are only a portion of 16/26 yes activities vs 10/26 no activities, and presuming that all 26-activities-of-the-alphabet are equally enjoyable to the dominant?

Plz xcuse mah fraxshuns, I dont know how else to illustrate.

No, it wouldn't change a thing within my relationship. He has access to all 26 whether I am particularly thrilled by them all or not. I may have some very good reasons why some of them are best left alone, but it is not my decision to make. He has the final authority on these things and to keep any of them back from him is to not entrust myself to him fully. If I know he will do what is best, then I have to know if he chooses to invade those three, then my well being is still at the forefront of having made that decision.

My partner wouldn't take "won't" as a challenge. He would view it as an area in which trust and instruction were needed. It remains the case that I would one day face that "won't", but I will be doing so when he has brought me to terms with it.

lovingpet

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 10:31:22 AM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
but to reflect that the tone and manner of delivery could be improved.
I agree with agirl. Improved in your mind perhaps. But in my mind and apparently in the mind of agirl's master, your improvements would be seen as downgrades and met with quick correction. To me, the proper "tone" of a slave is to communicate with me clearly, and concisely with as little fol-de-rol as possible. In other words, the same thing I'd ask of anyone else. I am not attempting to replicate some sort of BDSM comic here. For me, at least, your focus on appearance is exactly what I would be correcting. I want Carol to appear to be Carol... the woman I own.

You're edging dangerously close to one true wayism here porcelaine.

if you read the portion you quoted you will note i said could not should be improved. it was merely an example that was provided to illustrate another way of delivering her ideas. complete with additional information that was not given in the initial post.

everyone has their own way of communicating. this is augmented by the dominant party's preferences. in the manner that the op presented the comments it was my opinion that it was inappropriate. i included the reasoning behind that and example of how i would have advised the party in that situation.

your methods are suitable for your dynamic. i defer to what i am told. however, when i am in an advisory role i take into account other factors including the protocol of the party i'm speaking with. again, this was an example. not one wayism.

porcelaine

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 10:35:43 AM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

Ha. If I talked to him the way porcelaine descibed, he'd probably fall out of his chair laughing. Then he'd proceed to do whatever he wanted to me.
It seems like bad acting.

you are referencing an existing relationship. the op provided no background on the party save the two statements. we don't know if it was long standing or in its early stages. perhaps in your dynamic it wouldn't be necessary. once again it wasn't about the verbiage but how it was delivered. some dominants may not take offense in what was stated. others might. we have seen comments on both sides of the fence. i merely elected to include a different option for presentation.

porcelaine

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