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Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/22/2009 8:25:52 PM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Should the Federal Government show favoritism towards American Indian religions any more or less than towards Christianity or Hinduism or any other religion? I ask because there's an issue developing here in Idaho that seems kind of crazy to me. Using mortar and river rock, a man put together a series of cascading pools along a stretch of the Payette River in Central Idaho that capture water from a hot spring so that the general public may enjoy them.

quote:

"The words gorgeous and beautiful come to mind," said Brandt Seefeldt.

If you drive through Rocky Canyon you might miss them. Cascading pools that line the side of this mountain. At the top it is a hot 107 degrees and gradually they cool.

As it turned out, the Shoshone-Paiute Tribe (a Native American Tribe) claims the area "was part of the traditional territory of the tribe and a spiritual place" and complained to the U.S. Forest Service which then went after the guy who did all that work. The Forest Service fined him, forced him to do community service, and now they're determined to destroy the series of beautiful cascading pools that this guy built for everyone to enjoy.

And a lot of people do enjoy them!

But this is the part that doesn't make any sense to me - the spokesman for the government says that after they're destroyed they may possibly be rebuilt so long as its done through proper channels, and the Tribes agree to the work. Keep in mind this is on public land, not on a reservation.

quote:

A spokesman for the Shoshone-Paiute Indian tribe says the hot springs are sacred, and are being misused with alcohol, drugs and sex.

"Hot springs are a place where people go for healing and prayer, ceremonies," said Ted Howard, Shoshone-Paiute cultural resource director.

Many we spoke with agree the hot springs are sacred, but they think the tubs should be kept the way they are. They commend the man who built them.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/stories/ktvbn-oct2109-hot_springs_tubs.23c4de6ca.html

http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews/story/944528.html

< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/22/2009 8:36:43 PM >

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/22/2009 8:49:51 PM

TwistedHeart74

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From my read on the link you put, it has little to do with Native American beliefs and more to do with the fact the guy built them without a illegally.

"But what he did was a violation of the U.S. Forest Service," said John Erickson, District Ranger"

From the second link: "The man who built the pools radically - and illegally - altered the landscape and broke federal land-use regulations and they will be removed sometime this fall, Boise National Forest officials said."

If he thought what he was doing was right and okay, why didn't he follow the proper channels? What's wrong with keeping something natural and pure for all to enjoy instead of changing it to suit?

As for Native American religion and special treatment...that statement all on it's own is just..absurd. We are STILL not allowed to do the Ghost Dance...a very significant dance to some Tribes. We aren't given special treatment at all, there are STILL Tribes who are being screwed over by the government. Don't believe me? Go to a Zuni reservation where they have to go over 10 miles away to get water.

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/22/2009 8:52:26 PM

Termyn8or

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Well they had the "right" to use peyote and hemp when I didn't. Now it is coming to them. Sorry to hear it but that is the way the world works.

It's like the Palestinians and the Jews. One will take from another until there is nothing left. It was apparently OK to destroy settlements there, why not here ? Oh of course there was something wrong with the permits, but what are the chances of that being an inside job ? I mean I can get away with building an addition to my house without permits, but not an apartment building or cluster homes/condos. Nobody is that stupid.

The fact of the matter is, as long as they hold the notion that they own everything including us, I mean down to every blade of grass, this is but a drop in the bucket. I would give them back their water, and say a prayer to my ancestors to explain why I did it, and then return the water to those who think they are God. I would happily include a few other things. While I do not believe destruction is right for profit, in war it is perfectly fine. So if I could poison it, I would. They can have their water back, and then some. Perhaps something radioactive ? Or some sort of disease. Fuck them.

Next there'll be permits required for tents and campfires, wait a minute, there might be. I'll have to Google it.

Thoroughly disgusted with life and times, but trying to be as nice as possible;

T

PS I am not so sure I would harm the environment even for these reasons, but they keep taking, keep advancing, keep on keeping on. If they would stop I would never be a problem. These Natives have to tear down what they built ? I didn't vote for that, it is not on my property. I don't have a damn thing to say about it. Are there neighbors who possibly do ? There is no solution, but in the end things don't change except for the appeasement of mega greedy power junkies ?

T

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/22/2009 8:54:50 PM

cheyennebrave

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NATIVE PEOPLE DONT DESERVE ANYTHING SPECIAL TO PLEASE THEM FOR CHRIST SAKE LET THEM ALONE AND PLEASE STOP THE WANNABES..................................

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/22/2009 9:03:22 PM

DarkSteven

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If I build an addition to my house, I have to get permits. And that's MY house, on MY property.

I can't imagine the gall of someone to build a permanent structure on US Forest Service land without getting approval.

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/22/2009 9:04:19 PM

TwistedHeart74

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Wannabe's? That's nice.

I stand by what I said.

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/22/2009 9:46:49 PM

Termyn8or

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"If I build an addition to my house, I have to get permits. And that's MY house, on MY property."

That is an oxymoron. You may not have heard about the exchange of a property owner with the BLM or some other agency. Beavers had built a dam, on what is supposedly his property. They insisted he remove the dam. He replied, they replied.

Thier hardheadedness and stupidity is beyond belief. Whatever. I don't care if they build an apartment building in the redwood forest. People either come first or they don't. Their rights end where mine begin. Oh wait, my Grampa was wrong, all of our rights end where the government begins.

In other words, I don't care what people think about it. All I care is that someone takes a stand because of (this used to be my sig line).

Compliance is futile, you must resist.

ALL forms of government meddling must be fought tooth and nail. Otherwise they see us as pushovers, and rightly so I might add. Every encroachment must be dealt with as if it were an attack on the Bill Of Rights. If we don't, MARK MY WORDS FOR FUTURE REFERENCE, it will get to the point where they will simply make it illegal to read the Bill Of Rights. They already did it in courts. They supposedly own the courts. They supposedly own the land. They supposedly own everything, but in reality they do not.

I don't care what the Injuns build, as long as it is not on another's private property or interferes with air travel, and I am not so sure about the air travel.

Why not put this to a local popular vote ? Oh wait, that's been done. The US government has already asserted that it's wishes outweigh the rights of the People. This in a few referendums or whatever in CA and OR concerning cannibas and euthenasia.

Thine enemy's enemy is thine friend.

Now if they had said "It's got to go because you can't do that here" it would be a different story. But it sounds like "You didn't get permission from us, who are of course above all your Gods. Redo it with the proper permission and it will be fine".

This is not preserving the environment, this is flexing muscles, designed to teach us who is boss.

One of these days I hope someone teaches them.

T

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Post #: 7

RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/22/2009 9:51:25 PM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Why destroy them though, especially when they admit that they may be rebuilt. And maybe I'm wrong, or it may be that the article was poorly written but the way it was explained in the Statesman article (the second link) lead me to believe that it was primarily the concerns of the Shoshone-Paiute which instigated the Forest Service action, especially the decision to destroy what was built.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

If I build an addition to my house, I have to get permits. And that's MY house, on MY property.

I can't imagine the gall of someone to build a permanent structure on US Forest Service land without getting approval.

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/22/2009 9:53:19 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
If I build an addition to my house, I have to get permits. And that's MY house, on MY property.

I can't imagine the gall of someone to build a permanent structure on US Forest Service land without getting approval.

When on the beach, I used to dig transient holes and build transient simple sand castles, and dikes and streams for the sea water to move through. I suppose it won't be long before everyone has to get a permit to do such things? Of course this guy's cascades were a bit less transient...

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 12:02:53 AM

Termyn8or

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Go ahead and comply, don't resist.

Application for permit to build traditional snowman.

Said structure must be fully on the property of the builder and meet ANSI standards. Additionally said structure shall conform to all building codes and will not interfere with any easements granted in perpetuity or vended titleside. Proper ventilation is required and the work shall be performed by a multicultural team of union workers as per the unwritten and written quotas.

Additionally before licensure of the structure it shal be inspected and passed by a team of professional agents. They will pass their judgement based on the fact within said report, along with any undue influence. Pleas allow 2-5 months for an appointment with the inspetors and an additional month for full licensure.

The permit fee of $1,200 shall be paid before construction begins. The inspection fee will be determined on site by the inspectors. The license fee will be based on the size, mass and complexity of the structure. Subsequent inspection may occur to assure the safety and stability of said structure, and any violations must be corrected within 24 hours, or there will be a fine of $100 per day assessed.

Destruction of the structure is also to be approved. There will be no inspections or actions by the board between the months of July and August. If the structure is found to be destroyed, there will be a fine of no less than $2,000 nor more than $200,000,000 imposed, which must be paid immediately. If not the offender faces life imprisonment.

If the destruction of the structure revals the bullet ridden corpse of an inspector, the offender will also face stiff penalties for littering.

Your's Truly;

Your only real God, us

T

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Post #: 10

RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 12:54:29 AM

HatesParisHilton

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easy,simple and fair solution:

The Native Americans in the area get to go to this "pool-builder"'s house and build a casino there and keep all $$ from the proceeds.

I mean, thats Libertarianism in action, right Sanity?

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 5:21:46 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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Common sense needs to prevail - if the land is public land then the permits ought to have been acquired. Now the thing is built it should be regarded as ridiculous to destroy it simply because permits were not acquired, and this regardless of whether it may be rebuilt in future subject to stakeholders' approval. Rather, stakeholders should be asked now whether they would wish it destroyed, amended in some way or maintained as is, which settles the matter without causing additional disruption to the sacred site.

The day that the people exist to serve the state rather than the other way about is not quite yet come. Otherwise there should be no news story at all since all stakeholders would know to maintain silence in submission to the will of the state.

As for the wider question of native American rights, the answer really depends on whether such populations are considered to be citizens of the USA and therefore subject to and benefitting from the provisions available thereby as to rights and liberties. I have heard only bad news on this front in terms of associating such rights and liberties in full to such populations, though this may be a function of news broadcasting rather than the true situation. Nevertheless, it should be an odd situation indeed where a country insists on holding near worldwide jurisdiction for its own ends on an "as and when" basis, were it to then deny the provisions of that jurisdiction to populations within its border.

E

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 6:24:09 AM

Sanity

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Nobody intended to make any profit off of the cascading geothermal pools, the work and the material was donated. And the pools are not on Indian land they're on public land so a much better comparison would be a group of Christians complaining about Indians habitually enjoying sex and partying in some secluded canyon somewhere, and demanding that modest improvements in the area be destroyed for that reason.

And then having the government comply.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HatesParisHilton

easy,simple and fair solution:

The Native Americans in the area get to go to this "pool-builder"'s house and build a casino there and keep all $$ from the proceeds.

I mean, thats Libertarianism in action, right Sanity?

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 7:38:13 AM

tazzygirl

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Curious.. he didnt have permits... did he have the building inspected?

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 7:44:18 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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well- my Ron Paul sign is still up.

The city has not asked me to take it down. So maybe there is hope?

I live on the busy street. Anybody working or having any reason to come to the town has seen my sign.

As cynical as I am I tend to think the general area still has a shred of freedom in them. True enough they could insist the sign come down today. So nothing is guaranteed.

A house across the river has a periodic sign.... he changes what it says.

On the one hand - I was thinking of taking it down. And yet- it still looks good. It is not faded/ tacky looking yet.

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 8:33:26 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

As it turned out, the Shoshone-Paiute Tribe (a Native American Tribe) claims the area "was part of the traditional territory of the tribe and a spiritual place" and complained to the U.S. Forest Service which then went after the guy who did all that work. The Forest Service fined him, forced him to do community service, and now they're determined to destroy the series of beautiful cascading pools that this guy built for everyone to enjoy.

And a lot of people do enjoy them!

And evidently some people don't. It's not an indian vs. white man issue; it's a stupid white man vs. the US Forest Service issue. I don't care if it was the Daughters of The American Revolution who complained about it, the pools just aren't supposed to be there. You're not supposed to go around building structures on National Forest land. Period. You're supposed to just leave it the fuck alone. That's the whole point of national forests - preserving wild spaces in as close to their pristine condition as possible, so that people don't go around building shit anywhere they want to just because - in their mind - it would be an "improvement." People don't get to run around "improving" them without the permission of the Forest Service. What if someone decides to "improve" Yosemite National Park by building a staircase up the front of El Capitan? What if someone decides to "improve" the Badlands by building a network of roads into it so more people can see it close up?

This is a no-brainer. There's a process for people to follow here - if you think you have an idea that would make the natural area better for people, you take it to the Forest Service and get their approval. If they agree, you go ahead. If they don't, you go home and shut up. I don't know what there even is to discuss here.

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 8:38:17 AM

pahunkboy

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I have not read the link.

But we did pretty much steal the land from the Indians.   We renig on treaty after treaty.

As to us being a good custodian of the land. HA!   chem lawn on grass makes dogs sick.

As to rules- of course we have to have some.   Yet- of late the feds have gone wild harassing the Amish for selling stuff.

Quite possibly the punishment meted out was right on. I am however very suspicious of centralized power- new world order where one size fits all.

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 8:55:12 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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What is so special about this case? Nothing. Build a permanent structure anywhere without planning permission (even on your own land) and you may be asked to take the structure down. Planning permission as a process is undertaken to ensure everyone has a say as to if a proposed structure will have a bad impact on their lives. Go to any town hall meeting regarding what may on the face of it seem an innocuous structure and you'll see all kinds of questions raised.

Environmental impact: such as the ecology of the stream, is it a breeding ground for endangered species? Is it an area of outstanding natural beauty e.g. a place someone can go and not be reminded about the impact of mankind through the built environment?

There are all kinds of reasons most likely he was prosecuted as anyone else would be if they decided to build something without local consent.

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RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 9:13:41 AM

Sanity

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Its not a wilderness or a national park, Panda. The vast public lands of this nation are supposed to be for the enjoyment and use of the people. And it appears that the only reason for the Forest Service to interfere with the people's use and enjoyment of the land in question is that a certain religious group views them as sinners fornicating in their holy water. Drinking beer, and smoking (gasp!) reefers.

Those on here calling the constructs in question buildings are mistaken, these are little retaining walls meant only to keep pools of water in so that people can enjoy the relaxing hot springs better. The only theory I've heard that makes any sense is that the Forest Service plans on building a pay site there because the King essentially wants control, ownership, as well as revenue and that the religious concerns of the tribes are just a pretense.

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Post #: 19

RE: Native American Spirituality & The Feds - 10/23/2009 9:16:36 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Any ecological impact would only be made worse by tearing these little retaining walls out. People will continue to move rocks and deadwood around in order to improve the bathing experience after whats there is destroyed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

What is so special about this case? Nothing. Build a permanent structure anywhere without planning permission (even on your own land) and you may be asked to take the structure down. Planning permission as a process is undertaken to ensure everyone has a say as to if a proposed structure will have a bad impact on their lives. Go to any town hall meeting regarding what may on the face of it seem an innocuous structure and you'll see all kinds of questions raised.

Environmental impact: such as the ecology of the stream, is it a breeding ground for endangered species? Is it an area of outstanding natural beauty e.g. a place someone can go and not be reminded about the impact of mankind through the built environment?

There are all kinds of reasons most likely he was prosecuted as anyone else would be if they decided to build something without local consent.

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Post #: 20

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