RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (Full Version)

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Lordandmaster -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/7/2006 8:19:24 PM)

Yes, and I support that law. It's not a law against talking on a cell phone while driving. It's a law against talking on a cell phone without a hands-free device (i.e. speaker or headset).

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

Isn't New Jersey the same state that has a law against talking on a cell phone while driving?





Arpig -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/7/2006 9:14:57 PM)

I admit that I have not read the actual legislation (and doubt i would really grok it if I did...to many wherefors and such), according to the article quoted in the OP:
quote:

The bill requires an operator of an interactive computer service or an Internet service provider to establish and maintain reasonable procedures to enable any person to request and obtain disclosure of the legal name and address

I don't see where it says for police business. Besides, it still is none of the gvt's damned business what I say on a web site.

And to LaM....I agree 100%, that is a good law. And now it is time to go watch Henry VII (finally a good late show)




angelic -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/7/2006 9:42:24 PM)

the government can watch me all the want... they will be bored to tears...[:D]




imtempting -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/7/2006 9:52:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

I don't suppose the "lawmaker" considered just how a web owner could find out the "legal name" of anyone if they are providing a free service.



Why would they think anything weird about my name whic is..

Bruce Wayne
Business man
Gothlem City.







BitaTruble -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/7/2006 10:19:12 PM)

quote:

Would you post differently if CM was required to follow this proposed legislation?


Himself would not let me post to sites under those circumstances.

Celeste




IronBear -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/7/2006 10:36:57 PM)

To the best of my knowledgem Australian citizens and I guess all non US citizens would be precluded from this which would be immpossible to enforce anyway. I am informed that such restrictions is against Federal Law here.




UtopianRanger -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 2:55:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yes, and I support that law. It's not a law against talking on a cell phone while driving. It's a law against talking on a cell phone without a hands-free device (i.e. speaker or headset).

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

Isn't New Jersey the same state that has a law against talking on a cell phone while driving?




Okay.... that makes it a little better. The real problem I have with such laws is that they just keep opening the door for further expansion.

As I mentioned before about the food and hot coffee. Let's say some idiot who never pays attention while driving anyway, spills a cup of Starbucks finest in his lap and this causes a ten car pile-up on the NJ turn pike. The media gets a hold of it, sensationalizes it, and then some super intrusive activist who wants to make a name for their cause, tries to enact legislation that says you cannot ''drink'' hot coffee while driving.

Safety is important, but when it becomes so intrusive that it regulates everything, I have serious problems. The law of averages says there will be so many car accidents, muggings, killings, diseases, etc, etc. I can live with taking a few chances....I don’t want to become so sheltered that life isn’t fun anymore.


- The Ranger


Disclaimer: Keep in mind that this post was written by someone who holds moderate libertarian view-points - LMAO!




Mercnbeth -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 7:15:07 AM)

quote:

The real problem I have with such laws is that they just keep opening the door for further expansion.


People are getting killed in cars they should be required to wear seat-belts. okay - LAW
People are getting killed riding motor cycles and should be required to wear helmets. okay - LAW
People die from smoking. Okay LAWS. No advertisement, no smoking in restaurants, bars, public buildings, outside (Calabassas)
People with seat-belts continue to die in cars. okay - Airbag - LAW
People are too fat. okay - LAW - Nutrition disclosure
People make meth from cold/sinus medicine. LAW - Product only kept behind counter
People talk on a car phone irresponsibly and get into accidents. LAW - Hands-free needed for cell phones.

Intermittently attention is paid to one law or the other that effects a group of people personally. But generally, there is no consensus. Eventually, like talented magicians, attention is distracted from the issue of freedom infringement by some poster child type worse case example to rationalize imposing a freedom restricting Law. We all now routinely buckle up like good, well trained submissives, obedience without thought.

It's a game of chess. Our small freedoms are sacrificed like pawns. When in jeopardy, not enough consideration is given by enough people to make a difference. Not enough people care about the issue of personal freedom. The focus is on the poster child image. The 6 month old killed because he/she wasn't in a car seat. The motor cycle rider in a coma because he/she wasn't wearing a helmet. It's a "so what - it doesn't really matter - it's not important - I don't ride a motorcycle" attitude that sacrifices the pawn. Ironically enough, the generation of Woodstock, gone from hippie, to yuppie, to AARP; oversaw the transition and is now in charge of moving the pieces on the chess board.

Now we wonder why someone would want disclosure on anonymous websites. We wonder how censorship is permitted. We wonder why a womans rights over her body is once again being challenged. Why? Most of the pawns are gone from the game. We're so used to being conditioned that these "little" freedoms aren't important we don't even notice when they are removed from the playing board.

Try and point out the issue of freedom infringement and you are labeled a Libertarian - synonymous for inconsequential, a "wasted" vote. Is it a coincidence that every law sited above was money generating? From enforcement fines, to creating whole industries that didn't exist prior to the law's inception. Expand the pawns to knights and bishops, and you can consider the entitlement programs. Whether corporate or personal welfare the consequence is you lose the freedom to be charitable to who you deem. Every child MUST go to school, but that doesn't require that they know how to make change at Burger King when they "graduate". But your taxes MUST be used to keep the system going, and if you want to educate you kids at home or in some other matter you can be jailed if you don't have permission. How the hell did that happen? Were we all drugged into complicity? Was it the fluoride in the water?

Will there be any uproar when these pawns are in play?
There are sex offenders out there - Everyone going into a sex store needs to registrar and show a picture ID.
People speed in cars and don't get caught - GPS tracking in all cars and a automatic fine imposed.

If Orwell's 1984 had a prequel would it represent what occurred between 1970 and today? What we read about in the book was the result of all the years before. It illustrated "checkmate". When the day comes that personal preferences or personal beliefs are sacrificed and the fight is not focused on issue but the consequence, there may be a chance to stem the tide. But I doubt it will happen. Too much selfishness exists. Too much personal rationalization. Too much self importance.

Assemblyman Biondi proposed this law because his constituency saw it as a way to protect themselves and their children. They already surrendered their personal right to do so on their own, they already surrendered that pawn.

(Edited because spell checking doesn't work when you post in anger!)




Arpig -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 7:20:01 AM)

"That government is best which governs least"
~ Thomas Paine

“Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."
~ Thomas Paine

“That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.”
~ Thomas Jefferson




Lordandmaster -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 9:38:10 AM)

That's why there are statistics. In fact, an obscenely disproportionate number of traffic accidents occur when at least one driver has a cell phone in hand. The same is not true of drinking coffee. You can look it up.

Really, considering all the outrageous threats to our freedom that we are facing today, the cell-phone law doesn't seem like the right target.

Oh, and to Arpig: Those Thomas Paine quotes are a lot of fun, but he didn't live in the age of multinational corporations and global warming. Fifty years from now, when our children and grandchildren won't be able to go outside before 4 P.M., we are going to wonder why the hell we allowed energy corporations to get away with all the shit they've been pulling. Unfortunately, corporations that aren't regulated piss all over the rest of us. We have enough experience by now to be able to conclude that they don't discipline themselves. (This is basically why I find the entire libertarian position inapplicable to the twenty-first century--it's a little bit like attacking a Stealth Bomber with a musket--but that's, as the say, a whole nother issue...)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

As I mentioned before about the food and hot coffee. Let's say some idiot who never pays attention while driving anyway, spills a cup of Starbucks finest in his lap and this causes a ten car pile-up on the NJ turn pike. The media gets a hold of it, sensationalizes it, and then some super intrusive activist who wants to make a name for their cause, tries to enact legislation that says you cannot ''drink'' hot coffee while driving.





karmageddon30819 -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 10:03:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL:

Why yes, I would then post everything under the name "Publius."




should we try and ratify a CM constitution too?




Chaingang -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 1:38:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Oh, and to Arpig: Those Thomas Paine quotes are a lot of fun, but he didn't live in the age of multinational corporations and global warming.


Context matters. Paine was talking about the freedoms enjoyed by individuals - natural persons - versus the encroachment of government controls over them. Corporations should never have been granted anything like the status of persons - even fictive persons - and are therefore the perfect subjects of government regulation.




Lordandmaster -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 2:16:23 PM)

Yes, my whole point is that Paine did not envision multinational corporations like Walmart. His statements could be used today just as easily by both opponents and supporters of corporate power--a good indication that his philosophy is no longer sufficient in today's society.

I agree with you that corporations should not be granted the status of legal persons, but our legal system made that mistake, and the consequences are going to be harsh. That is, after all, why I cannot accept the unqualified principle that the government that governs least governs best. We have never needed government more than we need it now. Libertarians have no answer to these problems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Oh, and to Arpig: Those Thomas Paine quotes are a lot of fun, but he didn't live in the age of multinational corporations and global warming.


Context matters. Paine was talking about the freedoms enjoyed by individuals - natural persons - versus the encroachment of government controls over them. Corporations should never have been granted anything like the status of persons - even fictive persons - and are therefore the perfect subjects of government regulation.





Mercnbeth -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 2:52:51 PM)

quote:

We have never needed government more than we need it now.


L&M,
With all consideration to a respected debater; that's the scariest sentence I've ever read on CM, including the thread ball nailing.

Do you want to qualify that by requiring that we get different people involved with government than who are involved now on both sides of the aisle? Is it gotten so bad that we have to completely rely on government to take care of us? If Libertarians don't have the answer are you suggesting Socialists do? Maybe in a society of insects where the greater good of the colony is the governing law, but man in his nature has an ego.

I'd agree we need statesman and stateswoman who can cut through the bureaucratic and political BS. But government as it's currently set up? A government should be like the gutters in a bowling alley, only taking care of the garbage that falls on either extreme of left or right. Right now government has made the alley about 5 boards wide. People and individual ideas unencumbered by a "all knowing" "all responsible" government would be my ideal.




Lordandmaster -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 3:33:01 PM)

We don't need bad government, Merc (we have enough of that already); we need good government. But I don't agree with the people who say that we don't need any government at all, or that the less government we have, the better. In the absence of government, we are mere drones for the corporations that have taken over this country. And corporations don't give a shit about you, me, our children, or our environment. They care about the bottom line, no more and no less.




UtopianRanger -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 4:11:04 PM)

quote:

Intermittently attention is paid to one law or the other that effects a group of people personally. But generally, there is no consensus. Eventually, like talented magicians, attention is distracted from the issue of freedom infringement by some poster child type worse case example to rationalize imposing a freedom restricting Law. We all now routinely buckle up like good, well trained submissives, obedience without thought.

It's a game of chess. Our small freedoms are sacrificed like pawns. When in jeopardy, not enough consideration is given by enough people to make a difference. Not enough people care about the issue of personal freedom. The focus is on the poster child image. The 6 month old killed because he/she wasn't in a car seat. The motor cycle rider in a coma because he/she wasn't wearing a helmet. It's a "so what - it doesn't really matter - it's not important - I don't ride a motorcycle" attitude that sacrifices the pawn. Ironically enough, the generation of Woodstock, gone from hippie, to yuppie, to AARP; oversaw the transition and is now in charge of moving



Very well said ; We sometimes lose touch with the intangibles. A most excellent thread - I'm impressed.

quote:


Lam wrote >>>That's why there are statistics. In fact, an obscenely disproportionate number of traffic accidents occur when at least one driver has a cell phone in hand. The same is not true of drinking coffee. You can look it up.


Totally agree... but in my in my original response, I was trying to point out to you that my concern was more centered on the ''slow boil''.

Constraint constraint constaint - More constraint! I'm thinking in terms of the guy in California that sold his house and wants 30k more than he originally paid for it. Then the next guy acquires it, holds onto for a few years and wants 60k more than he paid for it.... eventually where does it all lead to?

I see the constraints {Laws} in today's society much the same way.... where do they lead to? How far are we willing to walk down the stray path of constraint?

Look.... back in the 70's, the cops used to pull a guy over, he was a little messed up... so they'd lock up his car, sternly warn him, and then give him a ride home.

They used to come into the bar with smiles on their faces to see if everyone was all right. Then they'd look at you... tell you to call a cab or give you a ride home..

What do they do today - They hide on a side street with an unmarked car waiting {with their hand on their gun} to hand down someone a ten-thousand dollar ticket and take them to jail - Wouldn't it be better to stop the crime before it happened or as Merc said... could it really be about money?

I wish the cops still had smiles on their faces and gave you a ride home.

I can make similar arguments for other laws..... constraint constraint constraint - Tighten the reigns more!!!

As I mentioned before... how long will it be before traffic fatalities are sensationalized enough that all automobiles will be eventually retro-fitted with GPS {similar to what a Freightliner has} transponders and drivers are ticketed via remote transponder. I have no doubt that there are already special interests groups promoting this.

What perpetuates this type of mentality {more constraint} and where do the constraints end?

For myself....I feel good living on the edge a little bit.... and have always said that a little anarchy is good for the soul.

Remember… the Romans had similar problems. What was their answer – Hang all the Senators!



- The Ranger




Chaingang -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 9:16:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
... could it really be about money?


Tickets are not about preventing anything - they are about revenue and always have been:

"Big Cities Make Big Money on Tickets"
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/09/995.asp

BTW, I think the link is extremely conservative in terms of the monies reported. Cities like Los Angeles were reporting numbers higher than that back in the 80s...




Gauge -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 10:20:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There have been a few who have posted threads wanting to disclose the names of people who are, in their minds, "predators" or "users" or "liars" or "frauds". It seems that one state has solved all the other problems facing their citizens and has decided to take on the problem head on. A New Jersey Assemblyman, Peter Biondi (Morris/Somerset) has introduced a bill which will require internet message board sites to maintain files with the legal names and addresses of it's members. Wonder how many "misunderstood spouses" will be posting if that goes into effect? It will be interesting to see how far this proposed legislation gets.

As a former home owner in NJ have they changed their real estate tax laws. I seem to remember they just asked for any/all the money you had left over from paying all the other taxes for the privilege of sending your kids to bad public schools, drove on bad, pot-hole infested roads where you paid tolls every mile and a half, and if you wanted anything done in business you put an envelope with $25,000.00 in your trash bin for the "garbage men" to pick up. But I guess having that "GREAT" weather year round is a trade off.

quote:

This bill would require an operator of any interactive computer service or an Internet service provider to establish, maintain and enforce a policy requiring an information content provider who posts messages on a public forum website either to be identified by legal name and address or to register a legal name and address with the operator or provider prior to posting messages on a public forum website.

The bill requires an operator of an interactive computer service or an Internet service provider to establish and maintain reasonable procedures to enable any person to request and obtain disclosure of the legal name and address of an information content provider who posts false or defamatory information about the person on a public forum website.

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2006/Bills/A1500/1327_I1.HTM


Would you post differently if CM was required to follow this proposed legislation?


In answer to your question, it would not affect me and how I post. I am not ashamed of anything that I say in this or any other forum.

As far as the legislation is concerned, I am sure that there are certain, valid, reasons to propose it but you are correct in that it is yet another small freedom we will have taken away if it passes.

If I have said it once, I have said it a thousand times... we are in trouble. Our freedoms are being slowly, methodically, legislated away.




SirKenin -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/8/2006 10:54:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

We don't need bad government, Merc (we have enough of that already); we need good government. But I don't agree with the people who say that we don't need any government at all, or that the less government we have, the better. In the absence of government, we are mere drones for the corporations that have taken over this country. And corporations don't give a shit about you, me, our children, or our environment. They care about the bottom line, no more and no less.


It does not matter how much "government" is in place, the corporations ARE your government. Big business runs your country. They hold the reigns. The government is merely puppets on a string.




Chaingang -> RE: A Law Requiring Name Disclosure (3/9/2006 1:15:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
It does not matter how much "government" is in place, the corporations ARE your government. Big business runs your country. They hold the reigns. The government is merely puppets on a string.


Well, it doesn't HAVE to be that way...I agree that it is that way right now...

Suddenly the original version of "Rollerball" would seem surprisingly relevant...




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