RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked?

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rulemylife -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 3:23:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Lorr47 quote: I'm afraid I'm going to find myself in a troubling position in the months and years ahead. I want this country to get the hell out of Afghanistan, but the lying, dumbfuck hippies are gonna piss me off on a daily basis, and I won't be tolerant at all of those who will bash the troops to make their point. I will buy you a diaper. Wow. Shooting for the Rulemylife prize for the most inane, insulting, effort to distract from a point award? Maybe you should run along to the Health and Safety forum for a thread on oversize insertions, for some hints on what you can do with your attitude. Buh-bye. Interesting. You make a remark about "lying dumbfuck hippies" and then try to claim others are making "inane, insulting efforts to distract from a point" when they respond to your inane, insulting remark.

DomKen -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 4:32:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Right. So the "real analysts" would be the ones you agree with, and the pay-offs and promises were completely separate and unrelated to any sort of strategy, even though they happened at the same time, and the decisions were made by the same people. Got it. Denial is cheaper than therapy, I guess. We aren't on the same page regarding Afghanistan, Ken. I don't know why you would suggest that we are. Maybe I'm reading your statement wrong? I want us the fuck out of there. The obligations we assumed in "breaking" Iraq do not apply there. If we must remain involved, then we should do it entirely without the use of conventional ground forces. Let us be shadows that cut throats in the night, and sudden explosive death from above. Afghanistan is where empires go to die. The surge was deploying additional US troops and the much talked about heart and minds startegy of Petraeus. From all accounts Petraeus adopted the bribery strategy only after the initial surge failed and the British revealed to him that it had been part of their strategy for some time. Well if you don't support the stabilisation of afghanistan them I feel much better as it makes it more apparent that it is the right thing to do. Pulling out of there would quickly result in a nuclear armed terrorist state in power in central asia.

TheHeretic -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 4:42:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Well if you don't support the stabilisation of afghanistan them I feel much better as it makes it more apparent that it is the right thing to do. Pulling out of there would quickly result in a nuclear armed terrorist state in power in central asia. Things do change sometimes, don't they, Ken? Forgive me for tossing a monkey-wrench into your stategy of blind oppostion, but you are aware you are lining up with the mainstream of Republicans in Congress, right? Turning neo-con on us? Carrying some air freshener will get me through sharing ideological space with hippies, what are you going to need?

Politesub53 -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 4:48:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic First off, Looki, for years of the Iraq mess, we had to hear time and again how the Libs were all completely ok with the military action in Afghanistan. President Obama, throughout his campaign, said it was the war we should be fighting. Efforts to rewrite history to make it another Bush-bash will be slapped, and 'bullshit' will be called. How soon we forget. Bush stated after 9/11 he would go after the culprits. He invaded Afghanistan, so far so good, then he went into Iraq.... Wrong move. Yet here you are somehow suggesting we should get out Afghanistan without finishing the job Bush started. If Obama did that, and the Taliban took control, allowing Al Qaida to operate freely and attack the west again, I have no doubt who you would blame.

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 5:50:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic First off, Looki, for years of the Iraq mess, we had to hear time and again how the Libs were all completely ok with the military action in Afghanistan. President Obama, throughout his campaign, said it was the war we should be fighting. Efforts to rewrite history to make it another Bush-bash will be slapped, and 'bullshit' will be called. How soon we forget. Bush stated after 9/11 he would go after the culprits. He invaded Afghanistan, so far so good, then he went into Iraq.... Wrong move. Yet here you are somehow suggesting we should get out Afghanistan without finishing the job Bush started. If Obama did that, and the Taliban took control, allowing Al Qaida to operate freely and attack the west again, I have no doubt who you would blame. Allow me to reply to a couple of points made in various posts by consolidating my views here. 1. We supported SH against Iran after the Shah was deposed and our embassy peeps were held captive for 444 days. So, I reiterate, SH was OUR Tyrant....as was the Shah before him. 2. We went into Iraq on the "misinformation" of WMD and imminent threat of nuclear attack by freakin balloons. Remember? 3. Realists (vs neocons) warned we did not have enough troops to sustain an occupation. 4. No WMD were found. 4300 young lives sacrificed for zilch. wtf? 5. The mission was never to stand up the Iraqi government. Mission creep. 6. Bush negotiated a time table for withdrawal. 7. So what if Iraq falls into civil war? What is our vital national security interest now? Never had one to begin with. 8. American troops in Iraq are hostage to Iranian threat of retaliation. 9. We gained nothing. time to get out. 10. We went into tribal Afchaostan to hunt down a very tall man running through the rock strewn mountains attached to a kidney dialysis machine eight years ago. Mission failed. 11. Now some are saying we are there to stand up the Afgan army and Government, making the world safe for democracy (neocon utopian dreaming) Woodrow Wilson 1918. Won't we ever learn? More mission creep. OBAMA BULLSHIT. 12. Al Q is a stateless organization. The 19 original 9/11 attackers were Saudi students from Hamberg, DE. So, where to next? Yemen? Somalia? 13. Nuclear weapons in Pakistan are India's problem, not ours. 14. Is someone suggesting we send troops into Pakistan also? More mission creep. 15. Gen Petraeus' Army Handbook on fighting counter insurgency requires maybe 55 troops to protect 1000 locals. Afchaostan has 35 million locals. We would need 600,000 troops (i read) to properly fight a counter-insurgency. 16. Finally, I think.... i agree you fight terror with terrorist tactics....special ops and remote control drone kills from above. Make em nervous as all get out. 17. Bring the troops home. We have no vital national security interests in the near east or southeast asia. Thank you.... When Johnny comes marching home again, hoorah, hoorah !!! 1918 song, guys and gals.

tazzygirl -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 5:59:45 PM)
I find it... telling... that you dont mention any other's BULLSHIT (your emphasis) than Obama's. Care to explain?

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 6:18:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess 13. Nuclear weapons in Pakistan are India's problem, not ours. I agree with a lot of what you say, but whoa - not this one. If Pakistan comes apart, how long will those nukes that are in Pakistan stay in Pakistan? The possibility (however slight) of an Islamic revolution in a nuclear-armed country, a country in which many if not most of the senior military staff is sympathetic to jihadists, is quite probably the world's worst nightmare at the moment. There may be no more urgent issue on Obama's desk than the regional stability of the Pakistan/Afghanistan area right now. I'm not saying I fully agree with how he seems to be handling it at the present time, but that's a separate issue. The point is, this isn't something to be casually dismissed or taken lightly. He's right to keep his eye on this particular ball.

servantforuse -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 7:01:55 PM)
Your'e right Panda. Number 2 on the Obama agenda should be Iran. They also will have a nuke very soon.

TheHeretic -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 8:34:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 I have no doubt who you would blame. Then you don't know me very well, Polite. I am saying the same things about Afghanistan now that I was saying during the Bush years (though the matter has come to the front burner now).

DomKen -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 9:03:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Well if you don't support the stabilisation of afghanistan them I feel much better as it makes it more apparent that it is the right thing to do. Pulling out of there would quickly result in a nuclear armed terrorist state in power in central asia. Things do change sometimes, don't they, Ken? Forgive me for tossing a monkey-wrench into your stategy of blind oppostion, but you are aware you are lining up with the mainstream of Republicans in Congress, right? Turning neo-con on us? Carrying some air freshener will get me through sharing ideological space with hippies, what are you going to need? This is why I find you so boring. You think I've changed my position. Go back over my posting history here. You'll never see me saying we should get out of Afghanistan. I've always been one who said it need more attention while you and the neo con scum you take direction from tried to pretend like invading Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and making the US safer. That the neo con scum in the GOP are now trying to jump on the Afghanistan bandwagon after ignoring it until it has almost resulted in the Taliban taking over Pakistan and Afghanistan is just more evidence that the neo cons have no idea what they are doing.

TheHeretic -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 9:40:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Well if you don't support the stabilisation of afghanistan them I feel much better as it makes it more apparent that it is the right thing to do. Pulling out of there would quickly result in a nuclear armed terrorist state in power in central asia. Things do change sometimes, don't they, Ken? Forgive me for tossing a monkey-wrench into your stategy of blind oppostion, but you are aware you are lining up with the mainstream of Republicans in Congress, right? Turning neo-con on us? Carrying some air freshener will get me through sharing ideological space with hippies, what are you going to need? This is why I find you so boring. You think I've changed my position. Go back over my posting history here. You'll never see me saying we should get out of Afghanistan. I've always been one who said it need more attention while you and the neo con scum you take direction from tried to pretend like invading Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and making the US safer. That the neo con scum in the GOP are now trying to jump on the Afghanistan bandwagon after ignoring it until it has almost resulted in the Taliban taking over Pakistan and Afghanistan is just more evidence that the neo cons have no idea what they are doing. Yeah, Ken, things change. That wasn't meant as a personal slam at you and your position. I'm sorry, if you read it that way. This, on the other hand, read as a pretty clear statement : Well if you don't support the stabilisation of afghanistan them I feel much better as it makes it more apparent that it is the right thing to do.: I'm opposed, so it makes you feel better about supporting. I like finding common ground with people I mostly don't agree with, Ken. Something that hasn't changed is the knee-jerk to blaming Bush. News flash: This is the foreign policy issue President Obama ran on. He even had his own pronouncian of "Pokistan" It is his. It has been his for nearly a year. Whatever strategy or vision he had in mind when he was spouting rhetoric, when the commander was changed, and more troops sent in, obviously didn't pan out, and they seem to have been lacking a plan "B." There are all sort of arguments for staying in Afghanistan. I have a sneaking suspicion we are going to start hearing about them soon. I may behave a bit cynically at the lateness of the efforts. None of them are going to outweigh that Afghanistan is where empires go to die, or change the realities of the supply routes, or the culture of the Afghans. I knew Obama was going to break all sorts of campaign promises, but ramping up this theater of the war was the one I most hoped he would break.

Arpig -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 9:49:31 PM)
quote: Afghanistan is where empires go to die. Yup, always has been...but nobody reads history anymore, so they think somehow this time it will be different. Killing foreigners is the national sport in Afghanistan and has been for thousands of years...Hell even the Persians had trouble there. That all being said we are there now and we have stirred up a hornet's nest in Pakistan by being there, and those nukes are everybody's business. What is going to happen when the Pakistanis and Indians start chucking nukes back and forth, do you really think it isn't going to have a major effect on the rest of the world. Don't forget that China and India are very close, and I doubt Beijing will just stand by and watch India get turned to a cinder, and even if they do, how about the fact that several hundred million people will die horribly? Sure they are all wogs and darkies, but they are still people, and personally I am just as worried about the people of Mumbai as I am about those in Ottawa. When nukes start going off nobody is safe or immune, its about time we really started thinking like Humans rather than Americans, Canadians, or whatever. We created the fucking present mess in Afghani-Pakistan and it behooves us to try our damnedest to set things right, however foredoomed to failure that attempt may be. How to solve it? Buggerd if I know, but I am darn sure that pulling out and letting them sort it out amongst themselves is the worst of all possible scenarios. The real problem in the afghan theatre is that for far too long the US left it to the NATO allies to deal with, and Lord knows I have nothing but respect for the Canadian soldiers, they are without equal as individual soldiers, but as an army we suck...we don't have the numbers, the equipment, or the logistical muscle to do it, we never have, even in WWII when we had a major army it was completely dependent on the Brits logistically & strategically...we even got our uniforms from them. But when we went into Afghanistan, the Taliban/Al Qaeda crumbled and vanished so all the tin hats in the Pentagon thought it was dealt with. Wrongo boyo! The Russkies could have explained it to them since they seem unable to read their Arrian. That's how they fight over there, they don't stand up when you are strong, they run away then, and come back when you aren't looking. The Afghans perfected guerrilla warfare back when wars were fought with rocks and pointed sticks. Maybe the route is to play by their rules, to pour in our unconventional warfare types and back them up with the US's unassailable command of the air...become the baddest asses in a country of bad asses...maybe then they will start to pay attention and try to actually come to terms, when they all start to feel that they are individually in mortal danger at all times, that their lives aren't worth spit anymore...that they are all effectively marked men. Never mind going after Achmed the local recruit...send in the experts, the one's who excel at doing "Very unpleasant things to very unpleasant people".

Politesub53 -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 3:14:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 I have no doubt who you would blame. Then you don't know me very well, Polite. I am saying the same things about Afghanistan now that I was saying during the Bush years (though the matter has come to the front burner now). Point taken my friend. What are your views on the invasion of Iraq when the main culprits of 9/11 were still running free ? I ask in all seriousness as I think the Iraq war has caused a disaster both there and in Afghanistan.

Politesub53 -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 3:21:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess 13. Nuclear weapons in Pakistan are India's problem, not ours. You need to hope that when the big bang occurs the winds stop blowing. That way you may avoid the fall out ......Pun intentional Edit for spelling

thishereboi -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 5:10:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chiaThePet While the Bush policies certainly contributed and still contribute to the situation in Iraq, centuries of differences between the Shi'ites and Sunnis are long and festering wounds. Forgive me if I don't join the partisan celebration as blood runs through the streets. chia* (the pet) [sm=agree.gif]

TheHeretic -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 6:50:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 I have no doubt who you would blame. Then you don't know me very well, Polite. I am saying the same things about Afghanistan now that I was saying during the Bush years (though the matter has come to the front burner now). Point taken my friend. What are your views on the invasion of Iraq when the main culprits of 9/11 were still running free ? I ask in all seriousness as I think the Iraq war has caused a disaster both there and in Afghanistan. A quick answer to a question that deserves a far longer one: Iraq was an awful mistake which we (the U.S.) bear the full responsibility for. We are stuck there.

MrRodgers -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 8:16:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chiaThePet While the Bush policies certainly contributed and still contribute to the situation in Iraq, centuries of differences between the Shi'ites and Sunnis are long and festering wounds. Forgive me if I don't join the partisan celebration as blood runs through the streets. chia* (the pet) Yes true but those differences were there long before we got there and we were supposed to know that going in and still be treated as liberators. We were until Bush and Co. formed the fascist and incompetent CPA (coalition provisional authority) The US 'There is no reason for the Iraqi people to own and bear arms." Can you believe that ? We made a whole lotta enemies and then they realized, yes we are supposed to own and bear arms. Kinkroids, the 'surge' was a very simple tactic and can work anywhere. We went from NOT paying $100/mo. to actually paying them $300/mo. Presto...they are our friends now. The violence in Iraq is the Taliban who want control of the entire ME.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 8:18:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Hippies? I think the '60's are over. They are far from over. The shallow thinking of the hippies infests government now that that generation is over 40 and they dont trust anyone who doesnt believe what they believe in.

mnottertail -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 8:21:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Hippies? I think the '60's are over. They are far from over. The shallow thinking of the hippies infests government now that that generation is over 40 and they dont trust anyone who doesnt believe what they believe in. yes, we call them neo-cons now. This is the thousands, get the new lingo under control, daddio.

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 9:35:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess 13. Nuclear weapons in Pakistan are India's problem, not ours. I agree with a lot of what you say, but whoa - not this one. If Pakistan comes apart, how long will those nukes that are in Pakistan stay in Pakistan? The possibility (however slight) of an Islamic revolution in a nuclear-armed country, a country in which many if not most of the senior military staff is sympathetic to jihadists, is quite probably the world's worst nightmare at the moment. There may be no more urgent issue on Obama's desk than the regional stability of the Pakistan/Afghanistan area right now. I'm not saying I fully agree with how he seems to be handling it at the present time, but that's a separate issue. The point is, this isn't something to be casually dismissed or taken lightly. He's right to keep his eye on this particular ball. We have faced that nightmare before and did so quite successfully. We called it the Cold War with Russia. That they are religiously motivated madmen makes their reality no different than the Communist motivated madmen. India is our first line of defense. India will not accommodate or tolerate a jihadist revolution next door. We need not put in our troops. We need to get away from the habit of thinking our Military is the solution for all the world's problems. Pax Romana, Pax Britanica, Pax America. All nonsense in the long run of history. Meanwhile, people die. At the last count I have seen: 4300 Americans, 85,000 Iraqis. For what purpose in our vital national security?

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