RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked?

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Politesub53 -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 1:26:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic A quick answer to a question that deserves a far longer one: Iraq was an awful mistake which we (the U.S.) bear the full responsibility for. We are stuck there. Dont let us off the hook, Tony Blair and co need to share some of the blame too. On this much, we agree.

rulemylife -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 5:38:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Hippies? I think the '60's are over. They are far from over. The shallow thinking of the hippies infests government now that that generation is over 40 and they dont trust anyone who doesnt believe what they believe in. Really, Obama was a hippie? And Rahm? A bit too young don't you think? Or is this the new conservative buzz-word for everyone they disagree with?

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 6:50:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: That all being said we are there now and we have stirred up a hornet's nest in Pakistan by being there, and those nukes are everybody's business. What is going to happen when the Pakistanis and Indians start chucking nukes back and forth, do you really think it isn't going to have a major effect on the rest of the world. I seriously doubt that India would sit passively and allow the rise of a jihadist nuclear state on their border. Do you forget that India has an Army? quote: We created the fucking present mess in Afghani-Pakistan and it behooves us to try our damnedest to set things right, however foredoomed to failure that attempt may be. How to solve it? Buggerd if I know, but I am darn sure that pulling out and letting them sort it out amongst themselves is the worst of all possible scenarios. Foredoomed to failure you say, so we should send more troops into southeast asia you say? Who was it? Was it Eisenhower who warned never get involved in a land war in Asia. We do not have the resources pure and simple. Neither treasury nor troops enough. Let them sort it out themselves for a change, say I. quote: That's how they fight over there, they don't stand up when you are strong, they run away then, and come back when you aren't looking. The Afghans perfected guerrilla warfare back when wars were fought with rocks and pointed sticks. Maybe the route is to play by their rules, to pour in our unconventional warfare types and back them up with the US's unassailable command of the air...become the baddest asses in a country of bad asses...maybe then they will start to pay attention and try to actually come to terms, when they all start to feel that they are individually in mortal danger at all times, that their lives aren't worth spit anymore...that they are all effectively marked men. Never mind going after Achmed the local recruit...send in the experts, the one's who excel at doing "Very unpleasant things to very unpleasant people". This seems a reasonable alternative if (a damn big if) we should be involved at all militarily. Keep in mind the logistics, please. Afchoastan is the world's third poorest nation. It is a failed narco state corrupt from the top down by Western standards. Warjiristan is the size of California and mountainous. Pakistan lies beyond. Realistically, more than we can handle. Additional Obama troops will be wasted. And in ten years from now, "Oh shit, sorry about that. Another political and military mistake." Alternative? Draft a million man army. Think that will be popular? Don't think so.

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 6:54:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I find it... telling... that you dont mention any other's BULLSHIT (your emphasis) than Obama's. Care to explain? Oh, there is plenty of bullshit to spread around. I am pointing the finger at Obama now only because I fear he is about to make the same mistake that was made previously - sending American boys and girls to die on Asian soil needlessly.

InvisibleBlack -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 7:14:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess Foredoomed to failure you say, so we should send more troops into southeast asia you say? Who was it? Was it Eisenhower who warned never get involved in a land war in Asia. We do not have the resources pure and simple. Neither treasury nor troops enough. Let them sort it out themselves for a change, say I. Douglas MacArthur said it to JFK in 1961. Whenever someone on the Joint Chiefs would give Kennedy crap about not being "macho" enough or "tough enough" about sending more troops into Viet Nam, he would tell them to go and try their arguements against MacArthur and if they convinced him, he (Kennedy) would go along.

InvisibleBlack -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 7:43:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Point taken my friend. What are your views on the invasion of Iraq when the main culprits of 9/11 were still running free ? I ask in all seriousness as I think the Iraq war has caused a disaster both there and in Afghanistan. I'll stick my two cents in here. I thought the invasion of Iraq was a mistake. I saw no ties between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda and I wondered at the time why we were diverting ourselves into knocking over Saddam - especially since previously Bush Sr. had deliberately left him in power since no one had any clue what to do with Iraq if you knocked over the government. I find it appalling that we (the United States) apparently had no plan for what to do once we pushed Saddam's regime out. It seemed obvious to me at the time that a three-way civil war would break out. Today, I have no doubt that when/if we withdraw, all Hell is going to break loose in Iraq along exactly the same lines it would have in 1991 if we'd overthrown the Iraqi government after Desert Storm. Iraq is an arbitrary country created by the British in 1926 that encompasses three hostile groups who would all prefer to be part of some other (or their own) country. It will never hold together in the long term. It's been held together by force ever since. Even the brutal tyranny of Saddam Hussein was only a stop-gap measure to the eventual disintegration of the country. Our mistake was walking in and getting involved. There is no pretty solution. Regarding Al Qaeda, fighting them (or any terrorist group) with an army is like trying to fight roaches with a hammer. You might kill a few but the rest will scuttle away and you'll knock the room apart trying and failing to get them. That's almost exactly what we're doing. General McChrystal himself admits he sees no signs of a major Al-Qaeda presence in Afghanistan. That's because if you're a terrorist or guerrilla group and the army shows up you leave. That's the whole point of being a guerrilla force. The 9/11 attacks were planned in Germany. Blowing Afghanistan apart in early 2001 wouldn't have stopped them. While I'm not confident where Al-Qaeda's leadership is operating from now, the suspicions I've heard are Somalia or the Sudan. Invading either of those countries wouldn't stop Al-Qaeda either. They would re-locate someplace else. Successful operations against terrorist groups are fought with espionage and counter-insurgency forces - such as the CIA or the NSA. We've managed to blunder around the Middle East and create hideous messes that it will take generations to clean up. We've destabilized (what a nice euphemism THAT is) three countries (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan) which we're now holding the bag for "fixing" without actually achieving our goal (ending the War On Terrorism successfully) and now we have more enemies than we did when we started. At this rate we're going to be at war for the rest of my life.

chiaThePet -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/26/2009 10:43:42 PM)
October 26, 2039 A camel passes wind in an upscale Baghdad market, startling vendor Abdul Pelosi. Abdul trips on the embroidered edge of his Baby Phat robe, spiraling into the display of Goat Head On A Stick (Make it a meal for 1111.1 Dinars more) creating an unholy chain reaction of tumbling hookahs, wooden dildos, masgoof, pacha and turshi. Coming to an explosive dust filled finale on the steps of the Seventy Seven Virgin's Camel Toe Tights. The virgins flood into the street, flailing their arms wildly into the hot desert air. Shrieks of tongue spinning melodies render native fowl defenseless and senseless. Billowing burkas of fancy blue with mesmerizing eye mesh, festooned with their favorite NFL team in bold and forbidding letters flood the sandy streets as if scorpions in heaving molten heat. "The Booshh......we curse the Booshh......all evil which befalls us is of the Booshhhhhhhhh! The sun does not shine......it is the Booshh......the wind does not blow......it is the Booshh! Our daughters hymens disappear in the mystery of the darkness......it is the Booshh! We slap our cheeks until bloody, beat our breasts until bruised......it is, ok, we just like that! We now bring you a short intermission sponsored by the Wikipediacks and the Googlelites. "Have a link, have a link, have a link today." "Have a link, have a link, have a link today." "Have a link, have a link, have a link today." "Have a link." "Have a link today." "There........is........nothing like a link!" "Have a link!" "Have a link todaaaaaaay!" The Surgeon General warns that links may be hazardous to your health. We now join President Obama's press conference on the Iraq crisis already in progress. "Helen Thomas please." "Helen." "Helen." "Here, hold this mirror under her nostrils." "Yes President Obama, what can you tell us Malia, how will you respond to this cataclysm. "Well, as you know, we inherited this crisis, had it thrust upon us, poured on our heads in our sleep. We blame the Booshh of course. All which befalls the earth from sunup to sundown is of the Booshh. From this day forward no man's name shall be burdened of responsibility aside from the Booshh. I once heard a profound message from a very wise man. "You can put lipstick on a Booshh, and it will still be responsible for the fall of all mankind." This truth will remain until the end of days. Goodnight, and have a pleasant tomorrow. Somebody nudge Helen please. chia* (the pet)

rulemylife -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 5:06:04 AM)
So much for that moral high ground. Forgive me if I don't join the partisan celebration as blood runs through the streets. chia* (the pet)

chiaThePet -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 5:54:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife So much for that moral high ground. Forgive me if I don't join the partisan celebration as blood runs through the streets. chia* (the pet) Helen? chia* (the pet)

Sanity -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 8:18:08 AM)
Tell me again who destroyed the World Trade Center. quote: Qaeda-linked group claims Baghdad bomb attacks DUBAI (Reuters) – An al Qaeda-linked group has said it carried out the twin suicide bombings that killed 155 people in Baghdad on Sunday and revived doubts about security in the run-up to Iraq's elections in January. The statement dated October 26 was posted by the Islamic State in Iraq group on a website often used by militants to announce responsibility for such attacks. "Suicide bombers targeted the dens of infidelity and pillars of the rejectionist Shi'ite state in the land of the caliphate," the statement said. It employed language often used by Sunni Arab militants to describe the Shi'ite Muslim majority that has dominated the Iraqi government since the U.S.-led invasion of 2003. "Among the chosen targets were the ministry of oppression known as the ministry of justice and the Baghdad provincial assembly ... The enemies only understand the language of force," said the statement. The authenticity of the claim could not be immediately verified. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091027/ts_nm/us_iraq_violence_claim_4

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 8:19:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack quote: Iraq is an arbitrary country created by the British in 1926 that encompasses three hostile groups who would all prefer to be part of some other (or their own) country. It will never hold together in the long term. It's been held together by force ever since. Even the brutal tyranny of Saddam Hussein was only a stop-gap measure to the eventual disintegration of the country. Our mistake was walking in and getting involved. There is no pretty solution. This was well documented in such magazines as The Atlantic before the invasion. No big secret. Just amazing the arrogance of the Bushies to ignore reality and recreate their own. quote: Regarding Al Qaeda, fighting them (or any terrorist group) with an army is like trying to fight roaches with a hammer. You might kill a few but the rest will scuttle away and you'll knock the room apart trying and failing to get them. That's almost exactly what we're doing. General McChrystal himself admits he sees no signs of a major Al-Qaeda presence in Afghanistan. That's because if you're a terrorist or guerrilla group and the army shows up you leave. That's the whole point of being a guerrilla force. The 9/11 attacks were planned in Germany. Blowing Afghanistan apart in early 2001 wouldn't have stopped them. While I'm not confident where Al-Qaeda's leadership is operating from now, the suspicions I've heard are Somalia or the Sudan. Invading either of those countries wouldn't stop Al-Qaeda either. They would re-locate someplace else. Successful operations against terrorist groups are fought with espionage and counter-insurgency forces - such as the CIA or the NSA. <SNIP> Love the roach analogy IB. And again, our leaders are fools if they think to fight a stateless Guerrilla force with conventional troops and armament

rulemylife -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 8:20:21 AM)
Tell us again whether Al-Quaeda was in Iraq before our invasion opened the door.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 9:15:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Hippies? I think the '60's are over. They are far from over. The shallow thinking of the hippies infests government now that that generation is over 40 and they dont trust anyone who doesnt believe what they believe in. Really, Obama was a hippie? And Rahm? A bit too young don't you think? Or is this the new conservative buzz-word for everyone they disagree with? Obama cant do it alone, there are other facets of government complicit in the process. Also Obama's entire liberal philosophy was taught to him by the spawn of the 60s.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 9:17:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I find it... telling... that you dont mention any other's BULLSHIT (your emphasis) than Obama's. Care to explain? Oh, there is plenty of bullshit to spread around. I am pointing the finger at Obama now only because I fear he is about to make the same mistake that was made previously - sending American boys and girls to die on Asian soil needlessly. And in the deadliest month in the Afhganistan war, he finds time to attack his critics, but cant find the time to make up his mind on saving those boys and girls.

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 10:36:29 AM)
Ex marine, State Department official resigns because he can see no sense in our fighting in Afchaostan. story here

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 10:39:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I find it... telling... that you dont mention any other's BULLSHIT (your emphasis) than Obama's. Care to explain? Oh, there is plenty of bullshit to spread around. I am pointing the finger at Obama now only because I fear he is about to make the same mistake that was made previously - sending American boys and girls to die on Asian soil needlessly. And in the deadliest month in the Afhganistan war, he finds time to attack his critics, but cant find the time to make up his mind on saving those boys and girls. I fault him for that as well. I have as little patience as you. But I fear the game is rigged, the fix is in. More troops now and more troops later.

mnottertail -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 10:45:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Tell me again who destroyed the World Trade Center. quote: Qaeda-linked group claims Baghdad bomb attacks DUBAI (Reuters) – An al Qaeda-linked group has said it carried out the twin suicide bombings that killed 155 people in Baghdad on Sunday and revived doubts about security in the run-up to Iraq's elections in January. The statement dated October 26 was posted by the Islamic State in Iraq group on a website often used by militants to announce responsibility for such attacks. "Suicide bombers targeted the dens of infidelity and pillars of the rejectionist Shi'ite state in the land of the caliphate," the statement said. It employed language often used by Sunni Arab militants to describe the Shi'ite Muslim majority that has dominated the Iraqi government since the U.S.-led invasion of 2003. "Among the chosen targets were the ministry of oppression known as the ministry of justice and the Baghdad provincial assembly ... The enemies only understand the language of force," said the statement. The authenticity of the claim could not be immediately verified. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091027/ts_nm/us_iraq_violence_claim_4 try a little sanity, Sanity.... spin your globe and find out where Dubai is.... And what in the fuck are you doing quoting AP/Reuters?....that is the devil incarnate of the liberal commie pinko left wing media........the head fuckin office, the vatican of leftwing neo-con slandering unfair media 666 666 666 666 GARLIC! UNCLEAN!!!!!! make the sign of the cross you closet liberal quoter....... Ron

slvemike4u -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 10:50:51 AM)
Oct,2009 and he's still bitching about hippies and the "spawn" of that decade.....sheesh talk about holding a grudge!

TheHeretic -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/27/2009 7:34:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife hippie? ... is this the new conservative buzz-word for everyone they disagree with? Where do you come up with this nonsense, RML? Do you really only relate to the world in such binary terms where "everything" either "is" or "isn't?" Hippies are just hippies. Long-haired, dope smoking, idealistic and frequently unwashed. Aside from the odd, angry one, with guns, an extremely liberal bunch. Do you have a term you prefer for the suburban white kid with dreadlocks, beating the drum for peace? How isolated from regular society does one need to be to think they all vanished with the 60's??? You can run across them damn near anywhere. No, RML, "hippie" is not a new conservative buzzword. (potentially racist, perhaps???) It just means hippie.

Sanity -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 8:35:15 AM)
Did Bush cause this one too? Or is al-Qaeda responsible for it. quote: Car bomb kills 93 in Pakistani city of Peshawar PESHAWAR, Pakistan – A car bomb struck a busy market in northwestern Pakistan on Wednesday, killing 93 people — mostly women and children — as visiting Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton pledged U.S. support for Islamabad's campaign against Islamic militants. More than 200 people were wounded in the blast in the main northwestern city of Peshawar, the deadliest in a surge of attacks by suspected insurgents this month. The government blamed militants seeking to avenge an army offensive launched this month against al-Qaida and Taliban in their stronghold close to the Afghan border. The bombing was the deadliest since explosions hit homecoming festivities for former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto in Karachi in October 2007, killing about 150 people. Bhutto was later slain in a separate attack. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091028/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan

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