RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked?

RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 10:20:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife hippie? ... is this the new conservative buzz-word for everyone they disagree with? Where do you come up with this nonsense, RML? Do you really only relate to the world in such binary terms where "everything" either "is" or "isn't?" Hippies are just hippies. Long-haired, dope smoking, idealistic and frequently unwashed. Aside from the odd, angry one, with guns, an extremely liberal bunch. Do you have a term you prefer for the suburban white kid with dreadlocks, beating the drum for peace? How isolated from regular society does one need to be to think they all vanished with the 60's??? You can run across them damn near anywhere. No, RML, "hippie" is not a new conservative buzzword. (potentially racist, perhaps???) It just means hippie. Too much SouthPark again Cartman.

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 10:42:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Did Bush cause this one too? Or is al-Qaeda responsible for it. quote: Car bomb kills 93 in Pakistani city of Peshawar PESHAWAR, Pakistan – A car bomb struck a busy market in northwestern Pakistan on Wednesday, killing 93 people — mostly women and children — as visiting Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton pledged U.S. support for Islamabad's campaign against Islamic militants. More than 200 people were wounded in the blast in the main northwestern city of Peshawar, the deadliest in a surge of attacks by suspected insurgents this month. The government blamed militants seeking to avenge an army offensive launched this month against al-Qaida and Taliban in their stronghold close to the Afghan border. The bombing was the deadliest since explosions hit homecoming festivities for former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto in Karachi in October 2007, killing about 150 people. Bhutto was later slain in a separate attack. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091028/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan Religious and tribal strife has been going on in Asia's subcontinent for more than just a few Centuries. No blame to George W Bush for that. Given the history of that cesspool, how can anyone justify the expenditure of American lives and treasure there? How are we supposed to fix it? Why are we supposed to fix it? Why us? What is our national interest? What is this madness of Empire that drives us first to replace the French in SE Asia, then the British in Palestine and Iraq, and now the British again in the sub-continent? Not worth one more drop of Ameerican blood. Not one more dollar. Alas, the fix is in; the game is rigged. Mindless Mission Creep proceeds with little resistence.

popeye1250 -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 12:34:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess It worked so well! We should employ the same tactics in Afchaostan. Todays news: 132 dead, 520 wounded by car bombings in Bagdad. George W Bush's disaster continues. Obama preparing to succumb to mission creep in Afghanistan. We have no vital strategic interests in either place. Bring home our troops before we lose anymore precious young lives needlessly. News Story Here Isn't Obama getting us out of Iraq?

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 1:14:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess It worked so well! We should employ the same tactics in Afchaostan. Todays news: 132 dead, 520 wounded by car bombings in Bagdad. George W Bush's disaster continues. Obama preparing to succumb to mission creep in Afghanistan. We have no vital strategic interests in either place. Bring home our troops before we lose anymore precious young lives needlessly. News Story Here Isn't Obama getting us out of Iraq? Jeez popeye, one would hope so. But out of the frying pan into the fire?

Sanity -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 3:48:14 PM)
They're people, your attitude seems to suggest that you're not sure that they are. Sure they're worth a drop of blood and a dollar... especially if we can affect positive changes over there which can impact not only millions of their lives but many of those of our own citizenry. Prior to our involvement in WW II many felt the same way about Europe, did they not? Not one dollar, not one single drop of blood. But we learned, least we should have learned, to try to nip those nagging little problems in the bud when possible because their problems can quickly become our own in a major way. And their problems did come knockin'. quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess Religious and tribal strife has been going on in Asia's subcontinent for more than just a few Centuries. No blame to George W Bush for that. Given the history of that cesspool, how can anyone justify the expenditure of American lives and treasure there? How are we supposed to fix it? Why are we supposed to fix it? Why us? What is our national interest? What is this madness of Empire that drives us first to replace the French in SE Asia, then the British in Palestine and Iraq, and now the British again in the sub-continent? Not worth one more drop of Ameerican blood. Not one more dollar. Alas, the fix is in; the game is rigged. Mindless Mission Creep proceeds with little resistence. [/color][/size]

Moonhead -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 3:50:47 PM)
I was always led to believe that a fear that Britain could be used as a staging post for an invasion across the atlantic was the main reason there was an American presence in the European theatre as well as the pacific.

mnottertail -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 3:53:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity They're people, your attitude seems to suggest that you're not sure that they are. Sure they're worth a drop of blood and a dollar... especially if we can affect positive changes over there which can impact not only millions of their lives but many of those of our own citizenry. Prior to our involvement in WW II many felt the same way about Europe, did they not? Not one dollar, not one single drop of blood. But we learned, least we should have learned, to try to nip those nagging little problems in the bud when possible because their problems can quickly become our own in a major way. And their problems did come knockin'. The troubles in europe were so dissimilar as to be on a different planet. Hitler INVADED not the other way round. We had very good relations with the area and the british imperialists were the fuckwads and the terror attacks, until WE went into the middle east and starting messing in their internal affairs by example, Reza Pavali, and so on. The situations could not be more starkly different, I ain't feelin' you here, bro. Ron

Moonhead -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 4:06:36 PM)
Are you sure? There was an American presence in Afghanistan for most of the '80s. By most accounts the Taliban was set up by the CIA to fight the Russians, then left to their own devices after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

frazzle -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 4:24:21 PM)
the taliban was not set up by anyone, they have been there, forever. Afghanistan isnt going to change, they think differently to the west. How many died so elections could take place and less then 10% voted. Pull out they dont want democracy and our young men are dying for nothing.

mnottertail -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 4:26:57 PM)
Reza Pahlavi shah an shah started during the war, with american backing, the american presence in the 80s was backing Iraq in the war with Iran and we are crosstalking but essentially saying the same thing, my point: middle easterners were friends and allies of the united states during WW2 because we were their saviors, until that time the overall enemy in the middle east was british imperialism since the colonial days. Hitler invaded somebody. Saddam invaded nobody, now, he did invade Kuwait some 12 years prior, and he should have been wiped off the face of the earth at that time,and I have maintained that repeatedly, but since he got an allie allie in free, the clock is reset. We armed taliban and al-queda against Russia who was trying to clean that shithole up, and those are the same ones that now see us as invaders and are fighting us. So, any we should do preemptive logic because it is like europe prior to WW2 is faulty for at least those reasons, it is an entirely different deal. I would have wanted to wipe Hitler off the face of the map, and would have spent american treasure to do so, at Austria, probably and at Poland, certainly. There is more, but that is sufficient reason to say that there can be no synecdoche made from these two incidents. They do not have the same properties in any way, shape or form. If something else is being proffered than what I understand to be, I am listening. Ron

Moonhead -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 4:46:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: frazzle the taliban was not set up by anyone, they have been there, forever. Afghanistan isnt going to change, they think differently to the west. How many died so elections could take place and less then 10% voted. Pull out they dont want democracy and our young men are dying for nothing. It was the Muhjadeen when the CIA was funding it, and evolved into the Taliban after the CIA cut off the money, I think.

rulemylife -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/28/2009 7:53:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity They're people, your attitude seems to suggest that you're not sure that they are. Sure they're worth a drop of blood and a dollar... especially if we can affect positive changes over there which can impact not only millions of their lives but many of those of our own citizenry. Prior to our involvement in WW II many felt the same way about Europe, did they not? Not one dollar, not one single drop of blood. But we learned, least we should have learned, to try to nip those nagging little problems in the bud when possible because their problems can quickly become our own in a major way. And their problems did come knockin'. So Sanity, are you saying you support Obama's plan in Afghanistan?

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/30/2009 5:47:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity They're people, your attitude seems to suggest that you're not sure that they are. Sure they're worth a drop of blood and a dollar... especially if we can affect positive changes over there which can impact not only millions of their lives but many of those of our own citizenry. Prior to our involvement in WW II many felt the same way about Europe, did they not? Not one dollar, not one single drop of blood. But we learned, least we should have learned, to try to nip those nagging little problems in the bud when possible because their problems can quickly become our own in a major way. And their problems did come knockin'. quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess Religious and tribal strife has been going on in Asia's subcontinent for more than just a few Centuries. No blame to George W Bush for that. Given the history of that cesspool, how can anyone justify the expenditure of American lives and treasure there? How are we supposed to fix it? Why are we supposed to fix it? Why us? What is our national interest? What is this madness of Empire that drives us first to replace the French in SE Asia, then the British in Palestine and Iraq, and now the British again in the sub-continent? Not worth one more drop of Ameerican blood. Not one more dollar. Alas, the fix is in; the game is rigged. Mindless Mission Creep proceeds with little resistence. Ted Sorensen, John F. Kennedy's closest adviser, says in this article Afghanistan isn't threatening to become another Vietnam. It already is. "Even the rhetoric today is familiar—the dire warnings that an American loss would embolden our enemies and lead to a “domino effect” chain of setbacks across the region; that we must keep on sending fresh troops to kill or be killed, thereby expanding both America’s mission and stakes, even though Obama had no more initiated America’s role in Afghanistan than Kennedy initiated America’s role in South Vietnam. There was little the U.S. could do to stop the flow of arms and enemy combatants into South Vietnam across its porous border with North Vietnam, just as there is little the U.S. can do now to stem the flow of arms and enemy combatants pouring across Afghanistan’s porous border with Pakistan."

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/30/2009 6:10:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity They're people, your attitude seems to suggest that you're not sure that they are. Sure they're worth a drop of blood and a dollar... especially if we can affect positive changes over there which can impact not only millions of their lives but many of those of our own citizenry. Yes they are. Thirty-five million of six billion. Do you have any limits on our involvement? "if we can effect positive changes over there..." is the neocon utopian dream that armed occupiers can make the occupied happy and hence the "world will be made safe for Democracy" according to Woodrow Wilson circa 1918. Just another wasteful dream. quote: Prior to our involvement in WW II many felt the same way about Europe, did they not? Not one dollar, not one single drop of blood. But we learned, least we should have learned, to try to nip those nagging little problems in the bud when possible because their problems can quickly become our own in a major way. And their problems did come knockin'. Ironically, the "many" were called Republicans and Conservatives who in the instant situation are war hawks. In order to understand the root causes of World War II you have to go back and study the Armistice and agreement of 1919 which left Germany saddled with enormous reparation costs and the loss of the Rhur Valley Industrial base. That's why the Communists were brawling with the Right Wing groups in the streets of Munich and that's what brought Hitler to power. That's what brought about the collapse of the Weimar Republic in Germany. World War II was just a continuation of World War I with a 20 year interegnum. It is just fall down laughable to refer to it as "nagging little problems." Sorry, I mean no disrespect. The history of the times is well recorded.

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/30/2009 6:27:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: frazzle the taliban was not set up by anyone, they have been there, forever. Afghanistan isnt going to change, they think differently to the west. How many died so elections could take place and less then 10% voted. Pull out they dont want democracy and our young men are dying for nothing. Most certainly we agree. Afchaostan is the third poorest "nation" in the world. It is a tribal society mired in feudalism based upon a Narco economy with a corrupt "government." Furthermore, there is little more we can say for the Pakistani who also view us as occupiers and increasingly wish us gone as well. We are in a no win-can't win situation. If it talks like vietnam and walks like vietnam and smells like vietnam than maybe .....

popeye1250 -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/30/2009 8:43:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess It worked so well! We should employ the same tactics in Afchaostan. Todays news: 132 dead, 520 wounded by car bombings in Bagdad. George W Bush's disaster continues. Obama preparing to succumb to mission creep in Afghanistan. We have no vital strategic interests in either place. Bring home our troops before we lose anymore precious young lives needlessly. News Story Here Isn't Obama getting us out of Iraq? Jeez popeye, one would hope so. But out of the frying pan into the fire? Looking, the problem with this kind of stuff is that once we get out of Iraq there's groups that want us to get involved somewhere else! We need to learn from Vietnam to avoid the paranoid type of thinking that got us there and we need to hold our govt's. feet to the fire when they try to get us involved in other places. Look at the people who want us out of Iraq but,.....then they want to put our Troops in some African country and screeming the word "genocide." Who cares? It's not the job of the U.S. to solve the problems of foreign countries! Our govt. needs to learn how to say "no" to all that kind of crap and also stop giving our money away in foreign aid.

Starbuck09 -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/30/2009 9:03:57 AM)
There is no possibility that NATO will simply pull out of Afghanistan. Not only would that be crassly irresponsible but exceedingly damaging to NATO interests. Pakistan is our foremost ally in the islamic world it is utterly critical to the battle against fundamentalism. Pulling out of Afghanistan will not only leave the country in the same dangerous [for western interests] state as it was before the invasion but open up Pakistan to insurrection. If you really want to help the troops then get firmly behind the war so that your government can swing the necessary political clout to do what is necessary instead of half hearted measures desperately attemtping to not alienate potential voters.

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/30/2009 12:53:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 There is no possibility that NATO will simply pull out of Afghanistan. Not only would that be crassly irresponsible but exceedingly damaging to NATO interests. Pakistan is our foremost ally in the islamic world it is utterly critical to the battle against fundamentalism. Pulling out of Afghanistan will not only leave the country in the same dangerous [for western interests] state as it was before the invasion but open up Pakistan to insurrection. If you really want to help the troops then get firmly behind the war so that your government can swing the necessary political clout to do what is necessary instead of half hearted measures desperately attemtping to not alienate potential voters. NATO probably will not pull out as long as American troops are doing most of the fighting. Damaging to NATO's interests? What are those interests? Since when is Pakistan our foremost ally in the Islamic world? Since Geo W Bush held a gun to their head and deposited bribery cash to allow us overflight and supply routes into Afganistan. So, no need for Pakistan as an ally if we are not fighting a war in Afghanistan. If Pakistan is such a good ally why have they permitted safe sanctuary to Osama in Wajeristan these past eight years? They don't know where he is? You buy that? Our departure will open up Pakistan to insurrection? Dude, haven't you been watching the news? What do you think all that shooting and car bombs are about? So, Pakistan has much of its Armed Forces aligned against India on the East while the Taliban attack in the West. Yes, let's get behind the troops. Bring them home alive now. [image]local://upfiles/591087/877EA925C62343D1A6E1B717930F0339.jpg[/image]

Starbuck09 -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/30/2009 1:04:10 PM)
America is not doing most of the fighting Princess it is doing no more than it's NATO allies. The only exception to this are those forces not under NATO command which are there as part of operation enduring freedom and operate from an independent chain of command. NATO interests are the interests of those countries within the alliance. They have a myriad of interests one of which is not leaving Afghanistan as a country where once again it can be used as a haven for groups to arm train be funded and hide, groups which often have interests hostile to the interests of members of NATO. Pakistan is our foremost ally in the islamic world because it is the cradle of Islam. Because it is the sole islamic country with nuclear weapons. Because it has one of the largest most technologically advanced militaries of any islamic country. They are the West's ally because it is critical they are not our enemy. Again leaving them in the lurch by abandoning Afghanistan is appalingly shortsighted. Why don't you buy that? Have you any evidence whatsoever to support your hypothesis that Pakistan know where he is? THat's precisely my point. Pakistan is in crisis. Abandoning Afghanistan will simply allow greater freedom for insurgents moving into Pakistan it would be utterly disastrous. Pakistan has huge numbers of troops fighting in Wazristan that it has troops facing India is of no relevance. India is their primary strategic enemy.

Starbuck09 -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/30/2009 1:05:25 PM)
Bringing the troops home now wastes all they have sacrificed. If you simply wash your hands of the situation you deny everything they chose to fight and die for.

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