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RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? - 10/30/2009 1:11:36 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		starbucks, thats been done more than once, to drop the whole deal unresolved to our liking, and been done by alot of countries in many parts of the globe.

To wash our hands of the deal does not WASTE all they have sacrificed. Nor does it dishonor them.

they pretty much have signed on to protect the united states from enemies foreign and domestic, and that's about the total of it.

Now the individuals concerned may have other more lofty personal visions, but; like other things in life, they should read their contracts, because they serve at the convenience and current policy of the government.

Ron (who knows a little something about that contract)

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Starbuck09)
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RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? - 10/30/2009 1:15:59 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		 Oh I know it's been done plenty of times but, at least in my opinion, it makes it no less disgusting.  It's the same oath in Britian Ron [more or less I suspect the Queen features less heavily in the American oath!]. When I say waste I mean that if you go to war and give up halfway through then you should never have bothered to deploy. If something is worth going to war over then it is worth doing properly any less is an insult and abuse to the military tool.

< Message edited by Starbuck09 -- 10/30/2009 1:16:32 PM >

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? - 10/30/2009 2:58:52 PM   
looking4princess


Posts: 165
Joined: 4/9/2008
Status: offline 		A couple of points, Starbuck. First is Mission Creep. Bush invaded to get al-Q. He failed. They were driven from Afghanistan, true. Mission accomplished? Bush turned to Iraq. So, who quit on Afghanistan? Eight years now. What is the current mission? To support a corrupt government in a Narco medieval state? To "liberate" Afghanistan for democracy? A tribal feudal people? What is the exit strategy? Al Quiada is a stateless terrorist group. They can set up shop anywhere in the world.

quote:

"Pakistan is in crisis. Abandoning Afghanistan will simply allow greater freedom for insurgents moving into Pakistan it would be utterly disastrous."


Pakistan was born in crisis. Pakistan has been in crisis since it was split off from India. And I think you have it backwards regarding the insurgents. I thought the concern was that the tribal lands in Pakistan were offering safe haven to insurgents to invade Afghanistan. Yep, backwards, Starbuck. Or maybe it is that the border has always been and always will be an ungovernable region. What do you suggest? Should we occupy the border area with NATO troops? What's the plan?



quote:

NATO interests are the interests of those countries within the alliance. They have a myriad of interests one of which is not leaving Afghanistan as a country where once again it can be used as a haven for groups to arm train be funded and hide, groups which often have interests hostile to the interests of members of NATO.


Circular reasoning, friend. Also leaving out the nasty little point that al-Q was originally funded by the Saudis and it was 19 Saudi students from Hamburg, Germany who attacked us. Hardly a case for staying in Afghanistan.

quote:

Pakistan is our foremost ally in the islamic world because it is the cradle of Islam. Because it is the sole islamic country with nuclear weapons.


Really, the cradle of Islam? Not Mecca? And we should be allied with them because they have nuclear weapons? Are we to fear them then? Are they ready to attack us if we leave them alone? I do not understand your reasoning, Starbuck. Are the nuclear armed nations of the world to form a grand alliance then?

_____________________________

vincent....

Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

(in reply to Starbuck09)
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RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? - 10/30/2009 3:04:44 PM   
looking4princess


Posts: 165
Joined: 4/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

starbucks, thats been done more than once, to drop the whole deal unresolved to our liking, and been done by alot of countries in many parts of the globe.

To wash our hands of the deal does not WASTE all they have sacrificed. Nor does it dishonor them.

they pretty much have signed on to protect the united states from enemies foreign and domestic, and that's about the total of it.

Now the individuals concerned may have other more lofty personal visions, but; like other things in life, they should read their contracts, because they serve at the convenience and current policy of the government.

Ron (who knows a little something about that contract)


Yes, there is a contract. But isn't there an implied provision that the Government will not use our military resources for other than a righteous mission? As it now stands, Afghanistan is not a righteous battle, imo, Ron.

_____________________________

vincent....

Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? - 10/30/2009 3:17:30 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		implied to you and me as reasonable folks, yes........but in reality, fuck no, if it isn't wrote down, just like any contract or constitution, it aint really there. (and even then.......)

But I am in agreement with you on what our principles should be.

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to looking4princess)
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RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? - 10/30/2009 3:47:09 PM   
looking4princess


Posts: 165
Joined: 4/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

implied to you and me as reasonable folks, yes........but in reality, fuck no, if it isn't wrote down, just like any contract or constitution, it aint really there. (and even then.......)

But I am in agreement with you on what our principles should be.

Ron



Its a damn shame, Ron. It always has been and it always will be. War without end.
The following is a poem about a British boy left "uncoffined" in the ground in South Africa. Thomas Hardy was writing about the Boer War 1899-1902. Sad stuff. I learned of this from the British movie The History Boys. Made a deep impression on my thinking.

Drummer Hodge
by
Thomas Hardy

They throw in Drummer Hodge, to rest
Uncoffined – just as found:
His landmark is a kopje-crest
That breaks the veldt around;
And foreign constellations west
Each night above his mound.

Young Hodge the Drummer never knew –
Fresh from his Wessex home –
The meaning of the broad Karoo,
The Bush, the dusty loam,
And why uprose to nightly view
Strange stars amid the gloam.

Yet portion of that unknown plain
Will Hodge forever be;
His homely Northern breast and brain
Grow to some Southern tree,
And strange-eyed constellation reign
His stars eternally.






_____________________________

vincent....

Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? - 10/30/2009 3:57:35 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		here is one that should point out how we don't learn from history, about Afghanistan:

The Young British Soldier

When the 'arf-made recruity goes out to the East
'E acts like a babe an' 'e drinks like a beast,
An' 'e wonders because 'e is frequent deceased
Ere 'e's fit for to serve as a soldier.
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
So-oldier ~OF~ the Queen!

Now all you recruities what's drafted to-day,
You shut up your rag-box an' 'ark to my lay,
An' I'll sing you a soldier as far as I may:
A soldier what's fit for a soldier.
Fit, fit, fit for a soldier . . .

First mind you steer clear o' the grog-sellers' huts,
For they sell you Fixed Bay'nets that rots out your guts --
Ay, drink that 'ud eat the live steel from your butts --
An' it's bad for the young British soldier.
Bad, bad, bad for the soldier . . .

When the cholera comes -- as it will past a doubt --
Keep out of the wet and don't go on the shout,
For the sickness gets in as the liquor dies out,
An' it crumples the young British soldier.
Crum-, crum-, crumples the soldier . . .

But the worst o' your foes is the sun over'ead:
You ~must~ wear your 'elmet for all that is said:
If 'e finds you uncovered 'e'll knock you down dead,
An' you'll die like a fool of a soldier.
Fool, fool, fool of a soldier . . .

If you're cast for fatigue by a sergeant unkind,
Don't grouse like a woman nor crack on nor blind;
Be handy and civil, and then you will find
That it's beer for the young British soldier.
Beer, beer, beer for the soldier . . .

Now, if you must marry, take care she is old --
A troop-sergeant's widow's the nicest I'm told,
For beauty won't help if your rations is cold,
Nor love ain't enough for a soldier.
'Nough, 'nough, 'nough for a soldier . . .

If the wife should go wrong with a comrade, be loath
To shoot when you catch 'em -- you'll swing, on my oath! --
Make 'im take 'er and keep 'er: that's Hell for them both,
An' you're shut o' the curse of a soldier.
Curse, curse, curse of a soldier . . .

When first under fire an' you're wishful to duck,
Don't look nor take 'eed at the man that is struck,
Be thankful you're livin', and trust to your luck
And march to your front like a soldier.
Front, front, front like a soldier . . .

When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch,
Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch;
She's human as you are -- you treat her as sich,
An' she'll fight for the young British soldier.
Fight, fight, fight for the soldier . . .

When shakin' their bustles like ladies so fine,
The guns o' the enemy wheel into line,
Shoot low at the limbers an' don't mind the shine,
For noise never startles the soldier.
Start-, start-, startles the soldier . . .

If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white,
Remember it's ruin to run from a fight:
So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,
And wait for supports like a soldier.
Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!

Rudyard Kipling

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to looking4princess)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? - 10/30/2009 4:49:41 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I agree the troops need to come home. We are not getting value for money and worse young kids are dying and accomplishing very little. I think the troops need to come home and we need to fight terrorism in a different way that's less expensive and more effective.

(in reply to looking4princess)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? - 10/30/2009 7:18:36 PM   
looking4princess


Posts: 165
Joined: 4/9/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks for the support, Brain. Maybe some folks will start reevaluating what we are doing and stop accepting the same old nonsense.

And Ron, badass poem indeed. Especially the very last stanza. Powerful! Thanks. Jeez, why can't we learn?


When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!

Rudyard Kipling




_____________________________

vincent....

Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? - 10/31/2009 4:41:19 PM   
blackcat39


Posts: 62
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline 		the point of war is to kill people and break things.  We went to war to topple an evil regime before they allowed more terrorism.

I think the BUSH administration got sick of the Iraqis thinking they were winning and running our dead troops thru the streets and burning flags, cutting heads off our business men down there, and other things that pissed us off.   So what did we do?  We set up a surge of people to pwn them.  We stopped being so nice, and basically, just started killing them hardcore.....the streets did run with blood, and Iraqis realize, war is not pretty.  Be nice so we can leave and you better realize, we aren't playing out there......The surge worked because we went out there to kick some butt, not play games and pussy foot around.  Iraq wants us out, and so does the American people.  I don't understand why Obama didn't withdraw, like he promised....It was his decision/his advisors who decided to not leave for another year or so......

Of course we need a surge into Afganastein.  We need to crush these terrorists hardcore!  I don't know about you, but I think we should send about 200 million people into there.  Tell me its not going to be less than 1 million.  come on.  We need to kill people and break things.  Maybe then we can have peace.....

We had war on drugs.  Yea right.  Now we got war on terrorism.  Um, yea, right.  I think it really should be called war on war.  We don't like war.  ;0  We are good at it, we know it leads to unnessary deaths.... ;0

Don't piss off Americans  ;0

(in reply to looking4princess)
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RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? - 11/1/2009 5:23:39 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		What are the statistics?
• Nearly 5,000,000 Iraqi people are now displaced.
• Over 2,000,000 of these men, women and children live as refugees in neighboring countries
• These numbers represent the highest percentage of people seeking asylum in the world. (United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees)
• Total Iraqi population in crisis in and out of Iraq? 7,900,000
• Of these, approximately 750,000 are trying to survive in Jordan, where it is illegal for them to find legitimate employment because of their status as displaced persons from Iraq.
• As of January 2010, draconian cuts in UNHCR supported assistance will further reduce subsistence levels of health care, food, water and other assistance.
• Rising food prices have cut daily caloric food content from 1300 to 1100 calories per person, including children. That is for those who receive such food.
What are some of the consequences for this group of displaced persons?

According to the Women's Commission for Refugee Women and Children,
"Generally it is (displaced Iraqi) women who work (illegally) outside the home, since men and boys are more likely to be deported. Working illegally as waitresses... and domestic labor, women are particularly vulnerable to sexual abuse by their employers and colleagues... Some women have resorted to sex work... to provide for their families, putting themselves at incredibly high risk of sexual violence. All of this takes place in a climate of complete impunity: women rarely come forward after they have been raped, and rarer still is the successful prosecution of the rapist."

And oh yes, 4300 sacrificed American men and women.


read The Myth of Collateral Damage



_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to blackcat39)
Profile   Post #: 91
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