Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked?

Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (Full Version)

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looking4princess -> Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 7:42:29 AM)
It worked so well! We should employ the same tactics in Afchaostan. Todays news: 132 dead, 520 wounded by car bombings in Bagdad. George W Bush's disaster continues. Obama preparing to succumb to mission creep in Afghanistan. We have no vital strategic interests in either place. Bring home our troops before we lose anymore precious young lives needlessly. News Story Here

rulemylife -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 7:59:27 AM)
Haven't you heard? George Bush and Iraq are ancient history and we're not allowed to talk about them anymore. You liberal Bush-bashers just won't let him have his success. It has already been clearly established by conservatives everywhere that the surge worked and George Bush brought peace and prosperity to Iraq. Just like when Uncle Ronnie single-handedly stared down the evil Soviet Empire and won the Cold War.

chiaThePet -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 8:08:46 AM)
While the Bush policies certainly contributed and still contribute to the situation in Iraq, centuries of differences between the Shi'ites and Sunnis are long and festering wounds. Forgive me if I don't join the partisan celebration as blood runs through the streets. chia* (the pet)

Irishknight -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 8:28:55 AM)
Well said, Chia.

Musicmystery -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 8:31:24 AM)
quote: Forgive me if I don't join the partisan celebration as blood runs through the streets. Pretty unfair to call that a "celebration." Partisan, yes...but not untrue (as you noted).

DarkSteven -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 8:40:14 AM)
The surge cannot be known to have worked or failed until we reach the endpoint in Iraq. Then the question is, did the surge help make that endpoint more favorable or come about more quickly? The Bush administration claimed that it worked because it reduced the number of deaths per week. If the end is just us folding up our tents and leaving like Vietnam, the surge will just be seen as postponing the inevitable while killing off more people to do so.

chiaThePet -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 8:46:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Forgive me if I don't join the partisan celebration as blood runs through the streets. Pretty unfair to call that a "celebration." Partisan, yes...but not untrue (as you noted). All is fair in love and war. Pick your poison. chia* (the pet)

Sanity -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 9:00:46 AM)
The opposite surge, Obama's pullback, may be at least partially responsible for any intelligence failures or a lack of security or what have you, but ultimately the ones who are to blame for these deaths are the terrorists themselves.

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 9:25:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven The surge cannot be known to have worked or failed until we reach the endpoint in Iraq. Then the question is, did the surge help make that endpoint more favorable or come about more quickly? The Bush administration claimed that it worked because it reduced the number of deaths per week. If the end is just us folding up our tents and leaving like Vietnam, the surge will just be seen as postponing the inevitable while killing off more people to do so. [size=3Ummm, wonder how we are to evaluate a favorable endpoint when the initial premise was wrong. No WMD, no imminent threat to our homeland. 4300 lives lost for naught. We did not just fold our tents and leave Vietnam. I suggest that is a faulty misreading or misremebering snicker of history. Henry Kissinger signed a peace treaty with the North Vietnamese Representative Le Doc Tho in Paris in January 1973. We departed under duress in 1975.

looking4princess -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 9:30:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The opposite surge, Obama's pullback, may be at least partially responsible for any intelligence failures or a lack of security or what have you, but ultimately the ones who are to blame for these deaths are the terrorists themselves. Check me on this. I think I recall it correctly. The pullback was negotiated and agreed upon by the Bush Administration before Obama was inaugerated. Maybe we should have left Sadaam alone. We supported him in his war with Iran. He knew how to keep the peace. He was out Tyrant in Iraq, dagnabit!

TheHeretic -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 9:50:00 AM)
First off, Looki, for years of the Iraq mess, we had to hear time and again how the Libs were all completely ok with the military action in Afghanistan. President Obama, throughout his campaign, said it was the war we should be fighting. Efforts to rewrite history to make it another Bush-bash will be slapped, and 'bullshit' will be called. Next bit of bullshit is the assertion that the violence in Iraq today can be blamed on a failure of the surge, instead of the more recent changes to the status of our forces in that theater. Unless your foundation of all reasoning is "Bush baa-aaad" such a leap is completely without logic. The surge created opportunities for the Iraqi gov't to step up. We can see how well they have done that. I'm afraid I'm going to find myself in a troubling position in the months and years ahead. I want this country to get the hell out of Afghanistan, but the lying, dumbfuck hippies are gonna piss me off on a daily basis, and I won't be tolerant at all of those who will bash the troops to make their point.

rulemylife -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 9:54:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chiaThePet While the Bush policies certainly contributed and still contribute to the situation in Iraq, centuries of differences between the Shi'ites and Sunnis are long and festering wounds. Forgive me if I don't join the partisan celebration as blood runs through the streets. chia* (the pet) Interesting that you've suddenly developed a conscience when the majority of your posts try to make humor of every issue, no matter how serious. Or is it you are just offended because I'm putting the responsibility where it belongs? There never should have been a surge to debate about. Even if you believe the reasons we invaded were valid we should have been out of there after no wmd's were found and Saddam deposed and left the rest to the Iraqis, like Bush Sr. did. Instead we tried to build a democracy and are in the quagmire Cheney himself warned of in the Gulf War.

rulemylife -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 10:05:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I'm afraid I'm going to find myself in a troubling position in the months and years ahead. I want this country to get the hell out of Afghanistan, but the lying, dumbfuck hippies are gonna piss me off on a daily basis, and I won't be tolerant at all of those who will bash the troops to make their point. Hippies? I think the '60's are over, unless you're doing your Cartman impression again. And where have you seen anyone bashing the troops throughout this whole war? Unless you are going back to when Bush and co. tried to make it seem as if anyone who opposed the war wasn't supporting the troops.

Lorr47 -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 11:02:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The opposite surge, Obama's pullback, may be at least partially responsible for any intelligence failures or a lack of security or what have you, but ultimately the ones who are to blame for these deaths are the terrorists themselves. Check me on this. I think I recall it correctly. The pullback was negotiated and agreed upon by the Bush Administration before Obama was inaugerated. Maybe we should have left Sadaam alone. We supported him in his war with Iran. He knew how to keep the peace. He was out Tyrant in Iraq, dagnabit! The week Bush declared war on Iraq an Iraqi friend asked me why the US was so against SH when SH was against our terrorist enemies. Then, he went on to warn if we overthrew SH that the US would just have to support another dictator in the future because a violent strongman was a necessity in Iraq. And, the US went to war why?

Sanity -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 11:05:11 AM)
The Bush position was that an orderly withdrawal would proceed based on the Iraqi's willingness and ability to adequately fill their own security needs. If the Iraqis refuse to step up any lack of security would be their own fault but if we withdraw too quickly for political reasons its at least partly our own. quote: ORIGINAL: looking4princess Check me on this. I think I recall it correctly. The pullback was negotiated and agreed upon by the Bush Administration before Obama was inaugerated. Maybe we should have left Sadaam alone. We supported him in his war with Iran. He knew how to keep the peace. He was out Tyrant in Iraq, dagnabit!

Lorr47 -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 11:15:20 AM)
quote: I'm afraid I'm going to find myself in a troubling position in the months and years ahead. I want this country to get the hell out of Afghanistan, but the lying, dumbfuck hippies are gonna piss me off on a daily basis, and I won't be tolerant at all of those who will bash the troops to make their point. I will buy you a diaper.

TheHeretic -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 11:20:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lorr47 quote: I'm afraid I'm going to find myself in a troubling position in the months and years ahead. I want this country to get the hell out of Afghanistan, but the lying, dumbfuck hippies are gonna piss me off on a daily basis, and I won't be tolerant at all of those who will bash the troops to make their point. I will buy you a diaper. Wow. Shooting for the Rulemylife prize for the most inane, insulting, effort to distract from a point award? Maybe you should run along to the Health and Safety forum for a thread on oversize insertions, for some hints on what you can do with your attitude. Buh-bye.

DomKen -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 11:56:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic First off, Looki, for years of the Iraq mess, we had to hear time and again how the Libs were all completely ok with the military action in Afghanistan. President Obama, throughout his campaign, said it was the war we should be fighting. Efforts to rewrite history to make it another Bush-bash will be slapped, and 'bullshit' will be called. Next bit of bullshit is the assertion that the violence in Iraq today can be blamed on a failure of the surge, instead of the more recent changes to the status of our forces in that theater. Unless your foundation of all reasoning is "Bush baa-aaad" such a leap is completely without logic. The surge created opportunities for the Iraqi gov't to step up. We can see how well they have done that. I'm afraid I'm going to find myself in a troubling position in the months and years ahead. I want this country to get the hell out of Afghanistan, but the lying, dumbfuck hippies are gonna piss me off on a daily basis, and I won't be tolerant at all of those who will bash the troops to make their point. Hate to be in agreement with Heretic on anythin g but the fact is Afghanistan is a war of necessity and most liberals know this and while I respect the pacifists on our side we cannot let a resurgent Taliban gain control of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Domino theory was bullshit in SE Asia in the 60's but it definately looks possible in modern central Asia. Now back to my much more comfortable place, calling Heretic on stuff, it is well known by real analysts that the surge didn't work at stopping violence in Iraq. Two other things happened that ratcheted down the violence. First we started paying the Sunni militias to behave. Secondly Al Sadr decided to consolidate his power rather than trying to extend it to new areas of Iraq. Unfortunately the Sunni militias were promised jobs in the Iraqi government which have never materialized so now some are going back to fighting. Al Sadr has suddenly started acting like a head of state, his visit to Turkey, and is clearly poised to resume his attempt to gain control of the nation. Either the Sunni's or Al Sadr could be responsible for the attacks against the government ministries but i lean toward the Sunnis.

chiaThePet -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 2:00:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: chiaThePet While the Bush policies certainly contributed and still contribute to the situation in Iraq, centuries of differences between the Shi'ites and Sunnis are long and festering wounds. Forgive me if I don't join the partisan celebration as blood runs through the streets. chia* (the pet) Interesting that you've suddenly developed a conscience when the majority of your posts try to make humor of every issue, no matter how serious. Or is it you are just offended because I'm putting the responsibility where it belongs? There never should have been a surge to debate about. Even if you believe the reasons we invaded were valid we should have been out of there after no wmd's were found and Saddam deposed and left the rest to the Iraqis, like Bush Sr. did. Instead we tried to build a democracy and are in the quagmire Cheney himself warned of in the Gulf War. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Better? chia* (the pet)

TheHeretic -> RE: Oh Yeah! Tell Me Again. The Surge Worked? (10/25/2009 3:15:54 PM)
Right. So the "real analysts" would be the ones you agree with, and the pay-offs and promises were completely separate and unrelated to any sort of strategy, even though they happened at the same time, and the decisions were made by the same people. Got it. Denial is cheaper than therapy, I guess. We aren't on the same page regarding Afghanistan, Ken. I don't know why you would suggest that we are. Maybe I'm reading your statement wrong? I want us the fuck out of there. The obligations we assumed in "breaking" Iraq do not apply there. If we must remain involved, then we should do it entirely without the use of conventional ground forces. Let us be shadows that cut throats in the night, and sudden explosive death from above. Afghanistan is where empires go to die.

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