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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/30/2009 2:14:57 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Ok, if, if the warmer weather that is coming is without doubt,


There is plenty of doubt.

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/30/2009 7:37:24 PM   
looking4princess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

First off we would need to reduce the amount of fossil fuels we burn. Developing alternative energy sources would be a step in that direction. Reducing urban sprawl, so more plants remain to convert CO2 back to O2. One often overlook part of the problem is concrete, manufacturing concrete releases a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere. Got to be some way to make the stuff cleaner.

In the long term smarter urban planning so that more of life can be done without a car is vital. Increasing use of and efficiency of public transit is another big part of any plan.


Hey Ken, when you have the technology to fly 300 people from NYC to LA on power generated exclusively from solar cells and wind turbines maybe we can talk about alternative energy sources. Until then it's all about carbon fuels, baby.

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Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/30/2009 7:52:08 PM   
luckydawg


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Status: offline 		looking4, or forging the Aluminum to build a plane, with a solar panel. Though we should use solar or wind, for things we can.


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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/30/2009 9:02:34 PM   
looking4princess


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Status: offline 		dawg; i have nothing against wind or solar as local sources. I am doubtful about mass generation, however. Current technology seems to require massive amounts of land area. Ideal locations are in the Great Plains. Consequently, there are BIG transfer problems.

Big resistence to turbines off the East Coast. I think it was the Massachusetts area that protested. Gotta admit the turbines are pretty ugly. Spoil the beach views. lol!

And yes, from what I understand, Aluminum production from bauxite (?) uses an enormous amount of energy.

My main point to Ken was that current tech leaves wind and solar at maybe 2% of total energy needs in the foreseeable future. Open to more info, though.

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vincent....

Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/30/2009 11:55:01 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: looking4princess


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

First off we would need to reduce the amount of fossil fuels we burn. Developing alternative energy sources would be a step in that direction. Reducing urban sprawl, so more plants remain to convert CO2 back to O2. One often overlook part of the problem is concrete, manufacturing concrete releases a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere. Got to be some way to make the stuff cleaner.

In the long term smarter urban planning so that more of life can be done without a car is vital. Increasing use of and efficiency of public transit is another big part of any plan.


Hey Ken, when you have the technology to fly 300 people from NYC to LA on power generated exclusively from solar cells and wind turbines maybe we can talk about alternative energy sources. Until then it's all about carbon fuels, baby.

Actually the solution is about reducing or eliminating the uses of hydrocarbon that we can. For instance it is well established that roughly equivalent travel times can be achieved for regional travel by building high speed rail that can be powered by effeciently generated electricity. For example why have air travel between Chicago, St. Louis, Detroit, Minneapolis, Milwaukee and Cleveland? A network of high speed rail lines that have terminals in the city centers rather than at airports out on the fringes of the urban areas would result in faster travel for the majority of travelers with much less pollution.

As to solar cells and wind turbines too many people dismiss them as reducers of demand for hydrocarbons rather than eliminators. Consider for example all the flat roofs in urban areas in the US. Installation of solar panels on those roofs would greatly reduce our need for hydrocarbon based electricity. Verticle axis wind turbines are also suitable for rooftop installation and IMO aren't exactly eye sores.


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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/31/2009 12:00:54 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

looking4, or forging the Aluminum to build a plane, with a solar panel. Though we should use solar or wind, for things we can.


Realistically such energy intensive processes may continue to be primarily powered by hydrocarbons which of course is an argument for massive reduction in other hydrocarbon usage as hydrocarbons are a finite resource and should not be wasted producing power when other sources would suffice. I haven't looked into aluminum manufacturing but if it is so incredibly power intensive that rooftop panels and turbines can't make a dent in the power needed then it seems to be a process ripe for innovation of less energy intensive solutions. Seems like a win/win for the company that finds the way, less power needs means cheaper production and it is a green technology eligible for all those tax credits and grants.

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/31/2009 9:14:45 AM   
couldbemage


Posts: 112
Joined: 7/16/2008
Status: offline 		Iceland.

Trying to export hydroelectric power in the form of refined aluminum.

Hydro and nuke are the best non-carbon power sources...but.... They have issues.

+1 for trains

300 mph trains approach air travel in transit times. LA to vegas or SF would be nice.

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/31/2009 12:48:46 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
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Status: offline 		Ken, I am forced to agree with you. Too many people dismiss wind turbines due to lack of research or due to what they think they already know. A vertical wind turbine approximately the size of a 55 gallon drum can produce most of the electric needs for an average home. Add solar panels to that same home and there is now an excess of electricity produced. Add these components to every building with the space capable and every neighborhood becomes a "solar farm" and a "wind farm."
I plan to place solar panels and wind turbines on top of every roof and tower as I am building my renaissance faire site. A few weekends a year the site will be an event center. The rest of the year, it will pay for itself as a green power production facility.
Am I doing this because I believe that we are in any way speeding up the climate change cycle? Nope. I'm doing it because its the right thing to do. Preserving this planet and cutting down on the garbage our children inherit is the only correct option. Continuing to trash the planet and expecting our children and grandchildren to clean up is immoral to say the least.

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/31/2009 1:19:07 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Ken, I am forced to agree with you. Too many people dismiss wind turbines due to lack of research or due to what they think they already know. A vertical wind turbine approximately the size of a 55 gallon drum can produce most of the electric needs for an average home. Add solar panels to that same home and there is now an excess of electricity produced. Add these components to every building with the space capable and every neighborhood becomes a "solar farm" and a "wind farm."
I plan to place solar panels and wind turbines on top of every roof and tower as I am building my renaissance faire site. A few weekends a year the site will be an event center. The rest of the year, it will pay for itself as a green power production facility.
Am I doing this because I believe that we are in any way speeding up the climate change cycle? Nope. I'm doing it because its the right thing to do. Preserving this planet and cutting down on the garbage our children inherit is the only correct option. Continuing to trash the planet and expecting our children and grandchildren to clean up is immoral to say the least.

I've been trying to find the study without success but I read a study out of the California state government about putting panels and turbines on every viable roof. The amount of energy that would be produced was astounding.

Just think about the average grocery store or Wal-Mart. That's an awful lot of flat roof, several acres in some cases, with probably not much more than a air handling unit up there. put up a bunch of panels and a few turbines and at the very least that store draws less power off the grid. Multiply that across every strip mall and industrial park in the US...

(in reply to Irishknight)
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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/31/2009 1:24:30 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		What does the lobbying power for electric companies look like?

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/31/2009 2:48:49 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

What does the lobbying power for electric companies look like?

They tend to be fairly powerful but realistic. They have slowed but not stopped the spread of legislation requiring them to buy power from homes that are generating beyond their consumption.

There isn't a whole lot they can do if you want to produce power exclusively for your own consumption although going entirely off grid can have some legal impediments favorable to the electric utilities, for instance some places require an electrical hookup before the structure can be approved for human habitation.

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/31/2009 3:10:53 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Im assuming that requirement for hook-up is for sanitation and food needs?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/31/2009 3:47:31 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im assuming that requirement for hook-up is for sanitation and food needs?

I would assume that was the original reason but it is an impediment to going 100% off grid. If you'll dig out an electric bill you'll notice that part of the bill is basically a fee for being connected, and depending on where you live rent for the meter and a fee for reading it, which means that a house that would be entirely energy independent would still have to have a connection and would still be required to pay some fee to the electric company every month.

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/31/2009 4:02:37 PM   
blackcat39


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Status: offline 		If we were so concerned about global problems, shouldn't we be figuring out ways to fix our ozone?  what is ozone anywhose, Oxygen*oxygen*oxygen.  O3? up in the upeer atmosphere to prevent The sun from causing us trouble.  We should be actively figuring out ways to put O3 in the upper atmosphere so our ozone is fixxed.  

Complaining about the side affects of innadequate ozone without addressing the actual problem and blaming it on carbon-dioxide is so silly, its pathetic..... 

Being more conscious of energy policies is all fine and good, but we need to replace O3 in the upper atmostphere.  Primarily in both the north and south poles......

At a minimum we should determine if there is holes in the ozone, which we haven't done anything to do recently.  You'd think we could come up with a machine that would directly address this problem.  Create O3, either from a geosyncronous sattelite or a machine on the ground (if O3 can rise naturally into the upper atmostphere).....

Holes in the ozone is the problem, and it should be directly dealt with.......

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 10/31/2009 4:06:32 PM   
blackcat39


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Status: offline 		Carbon-monoxide(CO) is a poison that can kill.  Carbon dioxide is a different compound all together(CO2), its what plants use to breath out Oxygen thru absorbing the carbon in their normal symbiotic relationship with mammals....

Humans breath O2........CO2 is good, not bad........blah.....

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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 11/1/2009 12:02:02 PM   
pyroaquatic


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From: Pyroaquatica
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quote:

ORIGINAL: looking4princess

Sorry pyro, but we disagree on these two points:

(1) Although I admire your enthusiasm and your humanitarianism, this thread is all about climate change.

(2) While there is a great deal of waste among human industry and consumerism, we disagree when you say there is no waste in Nature.

Evolution is notoriously wasteful: behaviors and body parts become ill-adapted to changing environment; species and individuals are destroyed willy-nilly by the mindless process.

Evolution does a much better job of recycling mass/energy than do we humans but the process itself as I understand it has been hugely wasteful. Gene pools are merciless when confronted with hostile environmental changes. The ill-adapted are left strewn about to rot in the jungles of evolution-time, although granted some are useful as part of the food chain.

Thank you.....




Point:
1.) Climate change is a possible result of.....?

2.) Glaring contradiction is in bold.

I read through the responses after these points....

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

It is only waste to humans, but can often be used for other things. Even nature has some areas that humans consider waste, such as marshes and swamps. Have you looked at the CO production caused by rotting organic matter? If we are going to target man mad CO emissions, maybe we should look into alternatives into how to make concrete, research it. Damn if people are going to be concerned about things, I do recommend some research.


The thing about the CO emissions from rotting organic matter.... the energy it releases was not in the earth millions of years ago. It is recent.

I do research things. Damnit!


Ah, how much energy can be extracted from the roads I wonder?

Road + Solar Panel = What exactly?

hm hm hmmm....






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RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are w... - 12/3/2009 4:55:46 PM   
popeye1250


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