Racial Dilemma ?

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Aneirin -> Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 4:55:34 AM)
I am at college studying for a BA in applied arts, my specific area of interest being metalwork, so both jewellery fabrication and forge work. I have an interest in chains, well, rather the metal from the chains, my current stuff possibly over 300 years old, so handmade forged and fire welded links of true iron. I source this stuff from an estuary, where it is known hundreds of wooden vessels have been left to rot there after they have passed useful life, the place still is being used for that now,with end of life fishing vessels but I find the chains in the mud near where I have researched the wrecks lay before all the timber has rotted into nothing. My interest with this iron, is jewellery making, because it doesn't rust easily, due to silica in it's composition. But chains still interest me, they always have, especially rusty and corroded chain, the likes that has rotted down to the organic and woodlike grain structure, something difficult to describe, except for the fact that the metal looks like bone in some cases and natural grown wood in other cases. The dilemma I have, is a friend, a middle aged black woman, who studies sculpture, and excellent she is at it too, in her chosen field of interest. My interest in chains I know annoy her, when I ask why, I get the slavery bit, which I do understand, but, not at the same time. I do understand what slavery was, and I agree it was wrong, but I don't understand why my friend feels such outrage and anger still. I suggest she might like to move on away from the negativety of slavery, but this just releases a torrent of, but you're white and all the connotations with it, the guilt attack, but why, I don't understand, in this present age. My friend has suggested the chains I find, given their assumed antiquity, might be slave chains, my thoughts, hardly, as the run out from shore to mud, so likely anchor chains, and I even ventured the suggestion that if they were what she thought, what a better use to turn something of misery into something of beauty to be worn as choice dictates, perhaps a neutralising affect, replacing the negativity with positivity, but, they are anchor chains, not slave chains. So, the problem I have is a black friend whom I don't want to upset and offend, purely by the fact I just don't get it, or is it she doesn't get it. In college critique sessions, my chain art is discussed as to what my origins of thought are, and what I am trying to say, the usual artyfarty bollocks, but, it is an art college and if I am engaged in art, then I am going to have to engage the critique stuff too, but the reality is,my interest, is decay, nothing more. In the critique sessions, the Black slavery issue always comes up because of the chains, this puts my friend on the defensive, and to be perfectly frank, I am fed up with defending my specific interest, because of history, chains though they are a symbol of Black slavery, they are also used for other things, like stopping ships going onto rocks. As it is, my friend, here specific area of interest, is black women, all her fantastic sculptures are the same subject, she has no interest in anything else. Art, is used by many for many things, but my intention is not to offend anyone, but to produce decent items of jewellery that people might like to buy and wear. I consider myself not racist, but there is many things I need to understand, this issue with my friend is perplexing me, I don't want to keep my art from her, to save her feelings, but at the same time why shouldn't I pursue this interest. I guess I can't please everyone all of the time, I know that, but I just don't undestand why someone should get so touchy about this issue, it is gone, the past. Can anyone offer any suggestions which might answer or at least go some way to easing the situation I have with my friend ? ****** Please, I do not wish to start a contentious racial conversation on this issue so please do not let that happen, as all those things do, is create more negativity and confusion. I wish only to understand where I do not understand, and that is all ******

RCdc -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 5:05:56 AM)
That she really isn't a friend. If she was absolutely set on friendship then she would see past the reasons that chains offend her and instead, see why you find them interesting - in the same way that although you do not agree with her, you can understand her POV. If she wants to be so blinkered in her ideas, that it causes issues with you both, she isn't a friend but an aquaintance. If she is trying to manipulate you with negative words into her way of thinking, playing the guilt card, then shes struggling and deep down knows she is incorrect, but has no other place to sit. You live in a town that is sits on the very edge of the UK with boats and fishing being playing a large part - of course there is going to be lost chains and links that are nothing to do with slavery. Next time she goes on about slavery and how you don't understand, tell her just how many local people were taken from the Devon and Cornish coasts into slavery to serve in spain and italy by pirates back in the day. The way she is acting, she isn't a friend but someone who you know and have to deal with. If she was a friend, she would accept you as you come, no more, no less. Isn't that what you have always told me? the.dark.

pahunkboy -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 5:32:52 AM)
if you work with metal, what other items is it realistic to construct? Chains could be associated with a good tow truck and a car that keeps needing to be towed. In a way even a bad connotation could signal so that it does not happen again. Ask her what she would like you to construct with metal. Maybe she has some ideas.

Aneirin -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 5:45:50 AM)
Another source of good old iron, is bridges, when they are dismantled, I keep my ears open for these locally. But, I will not change my interest for anothers politics, but I do wish to understand where a dissenter is coming from. Why, well a need to be politically correct in an overwhelmingly politically correct society, but also for the purposes of education. Who knows, with better understanding, current courses of negativity may be steered towards the light for the benefit of all, or at least someone one may come across.

pahunkboy -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 6:05:01 AM)
I don't think you can 'win' this one. She apparently has her reasons. Chains can mean oppression. Tho is life is a chain we are only as strong as our weakest link.

kdsub -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 9:07:20 AM)
Why not see if you can work together on a metal sculpture representing slavery using your chains. This would let her know you understand her feelings and want to help show the horror of the past. And then see if she will collaborate on a project of yours where chains do not represent slavery. Butch sorry pahunkboy this post was for Aneirin

GreedyTop -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 9:12:12 AM)
that's a brilliant idea, Butch.....

kdsub -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 9:19:33 AM)
will...I've another idea...why not let me come over and help sweep the leaves off your roof and you help me learn how to properly make my bed....[8\|]

GreedyTop -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 9:29:00 AM)
snort It wasnt my roof... and what makes you think I know how to make a bed?? (as I glance into my room and notice that the fitted sheet is halfway off and the blankets are on the floor....) LOL

kdsub -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 9:32:04 AM)
Damn you're my kind of woman...lol...sorry I will continue to admire from a distance...with binoculars

DesFIP -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 9:33:49 AM)
Go talk to the professor. See if the university has a problem with you reusing anchor chains. Write the proposal out, explaining what you are using and why. Next time she tells you what not to make, tell her what not to make also. And explain that she is not being a friend, that the college understands the difference between big chains used to anchor a ship and smaller ones that people could stand up with, and why doesn't she educate herself? She isn't being a friend. Tell her to back off. But since she'll probably start up trouble for you, get written approval of your work in advance. Or, what is simpler, is tell her your target audience clientele are into S & M and they love heavy restraints. Then tell her how much such items commonly sell for.

samboct -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 10:35:52 AM)
Your friend is right- you don't get it. Your problem is that you're applying logic to an emotional issue- which by its very nature, isn't rational. However, she does have a reason to be angry with you because you're being obtuse. While slavery may be in the past, the effects of this centuries old institution are pernicious and still results in different expectations for individuals based on the color of their skin. It's unfair, but nevertheless it exists. Your friends' actions may be doing more to perpetuate the differences based on skin color than you are, but pointing that out is unlikely to fix anything. One possibility is to throw a little science at this situation and see how far you get with her. Race is a human construct with little/no genetic basis. Point out to your friend that if she sees another person with her skin color, given the vast genetic diversity of that "race", you may be more genetically linked to her than that person. I suspect that this will be an unsettling notion, and may help your friend overcome some of her own prejudices. Given that you both share an interest in art, you may share more of your friends core values than she realizes, and more than a random stranger with the same skin color. However, do be aware that people who challenge adversity together often feel a bond, regardless of genetics. It's pretty clear that your friend feels that having black skin in your society is a handicap, and therefore identifies with others who possess the same "handicap". You can point out that hopefully in a several decades more, we may become a "race" blind culture, a goal which you seem to have embraced a bit sooner than your friend. Perhaps pointing out to her how this laudable goal should be achieved- and perhaps achieved more quickly may also provoke a little soul searching on her end. Good luck! Sam

popeye1250 -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 10:59:35 AM)
Aneirin, I'm Irish on both sides of my family and I have Irish Citizenship and even knowing what the English did to the Irish People for hundreds of years I have no bad feelings or any animosity for English people. Some people it seems prefer to live in the past for whatever reason. Anytime a black person tries to manipulate me using the "slavery" thing I simply tell them that my ancesters didn't even arrive in the U.S. untill the early 1900's so we had nothing to do with "slavery." Would they be willing to accept responsibility for, "what the English did to the Irish" I ask them. Of course the answer is always "no." Like the saying goes, if you try to please everyone you'll please no-one. I don't understand how people alive today can be blamed for what happened hundreds of years ago. That's just convoluted logic and,...bad thinking!

Termyn8or -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 12:56:12 PM)
Buddy of mine has a saying - "Sounds like a personal problem to me". It may apply. First of all you have no obligation to please her. So you're trying to be a nice guy. Nothing wrong with that really. Certain people are hypersensitive about certain issues. The only way to deal with it effectively is to make them realize it and possibly explore why. Context can be very important. However in no way should you let her opinion influence your work. If she doesn't like it, quite frankly she is the one who has to deal with it. She is surely entitled to her opinion, let her express it. Only let it influence your work if YOU decide to. Make it clear that art is not meant to appease. If she decides to hate you because of it, well at least you are damnned for what you are. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to discuss it rationally, unless of course she is irrational about it. But this should come after the fact. It might help to find out what else offends her. There is alot of downright ugly "art" out there from which to choose. For some, they see the extreme bigotry of the south well after abolishion as another issue. My Father told me about it, he had seen it firsthand. To this day there are parts of this country that no sane Black person would want to go. It still exists. However that is no reason to let it influence your art unduly. That makes as much sense as taking all your money and giving it to Black people. It won't work, nobody has enough money to go around to make a dent, and it makes no sense. Gifts are not the solution. Make it clear that she should not jump the gun, wait to see the finished work first. Tell her that at that time you will invite her critique, and of course follow through. I noticed some say that she is not really a friend, that may be true or not. She is however an associate, another human being, and that comes with opinions. Kind of like when I wrote a story, almost like a book but a bit too long to be called short. I got it published on the net and invited critique. In fact I blatantly invited criticism. Just bear in mind, if she or anyone else says "That's fucking horrible", you don't skulk away, you want to find out why. Be fair enough to accept and discuss her opinion, but be firm enough to make it clear that this is your art. If she doesn't like you anymore because of it, that is simply too bad. T

Lucienne -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 1:44:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin I am at college studying for a BA in applied arts, my specific area of interest being metalwork, so both jewellery fabrication and forge work. I have an interest in chains, well, rather the metal from the chains, my current stuff possibly over 300 years old, so handmade forged and fire welded links of true iron. I source this stuff from an estuary, where it is known hundreds of wooden vessels have been left to rot there after they have passed useful life, the place still is being used for that now,with end of life fishing vessels but I find the chains in the mud near where I have researched the wrecks lay before all the timber has rotted into nothing. My interest with this iron, is jewellery making, because it doesn't rust easily, due to silica in it's composition. But chains still interest me, they always have, especially rusty and corroded chain, the likes that has rotted down to the organic and woodlike grain structure, something difficult to describe, except for the fact that the metal looks like bone in some cases and natural grown wood in other cases. ****** Please, I do not wish to start a contentious racial conversation on this issue so please do not let that happen, as all those things do, is create more negativity and confusion. I wish only to understand where I do not understand, and that is all ****** Are you interested in a contentious art vs. craft conversation? I don't know the history of the area you're finding these chains and can't make an assessment of how likely it is that the chains you are finding are slave chains, anchor chains, or maybe anchor chains for slave ships (I do know that English ships played a not insignificant role in the slave trade to the Americas). It certainly seems like a possibility they have a relation to the slave trade, given the age. Obviously, there is a racial component to your friend's attitude. But it seems to me that there could be an artistic component as well. The sculptors I have known would never approach a piece of metal that possibly came from a slave ship with a "la tee da! I'm just interested in the raw material!" attitude. The history of the material would need to be somehow recognized or reconciled with the piece. It seems that you're taking a far more practical, crafty attitude, assessing the iron for its physical properties without consideration of the more abstract concerns. In my experience, the conflict between "art" and "craft" can get feisty enough without any intrusion of racial issues.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 2:58:26 PM)
You have to understand that some people are going to make EVERYDAMN thing racial when it isnt. A friend from upper New York State got the "your people enslaved Mine " rant from a woman and she said " No, some of My relatives DIED to free your people" Kinda shut her up. At least till her back was turned probably. Bottom line is, you owe this person nothing. Do your art and just understand that there are those who look for the dark cloud around every silver lining. As long as you create beauty, you will make the world a better place.

kccuckoldmist -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 3:13:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark That she really isn't a friend. If she was absolutely set on friendship then she would see past the reasons that chains offend her and instead, see why you find them interesting - in the same way that although you do not agree with her, you can understand her POV. If she wants to be so blinkered in her ideas, that it causes issues with you both, she isn't a friend but an aquaintance. If she is trying to manipulate you with negative words into her way of thinking, playing the guilt card, then shes struggling and deep down knows she is incorrect, but has no other place to sit. You live in a town that is sits on the very edge of the UK with boats and fishing being playing a large part - of course there is going to be lost chains and links that are nothing to do with slavery. Next time she goes on about slavery and how you don't understand, tell her just how many local people were taken from the Devon and Cornish coasts into slavery to serve in spain and italy by pirates back in the day. The way she is acting, she isn't a friend but someone who you know and have to deal with. If she was a friend, she would accept you as you come, no more, no less. Isn't that what you have always told me? the.dark. While this maybe a little too strong I agree with what was written. Friendship is a two way street and requires both people to be considerate of each other. I am sorry but the woman is not being a very considerate friend in terms of not being able to see any side but one her own. To me this is equal to someone demanding another not do S&M despite their strong drawing toward it and the great pleasure they have for it just because they were physically abused at one point in their life. You cannot control people by always judging on worse case scenarios and this should be even more evident in a friendship. Now if you are pushing this on her or feel that you need approval from her then it may be another story. If she is your friend then at best both of you should try to avoid the area and see if you can remain friends but I for one would not put up with a friend that in essence cannot be bothered with trying to understand not everything is about them. I do not agree with samboct as your emotions for doing your art is a big part of it and that is what your friend is also not bothering to consider which seems really puzzling from one artist to another.

lizi -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 6:19:49 PM)
You are the artist of these pieces, not your friend. How would she like someone telling her that she shouldn't make her own art as she sees fit because they are offended by it? Her attitude seems a bit like censorship to me which never belongs in any creative endevour. Lets remember the fig leaves covering the naughty bits on ancient statues because the old fashioned viewers thought those areas of the human body were 'dirty'. I think I would recommend that the next time it comes up you suggest to her that since you are the artist you don't appreciate having to restrict your artistic freedom to anyone else's stereotypes and your motives in doing what you do are your own and you don't need to change what you do in order to please others and she has the same freedom to create as she pleases. One other thing to keep in mind at the critiques...sometimes a snake is just a snake. Art is a world where boundaries are pushed and a snake can represent many things...or it can just be a snake that happens to be in the piece because the artist felt like putting it in because they think snakes are cool. I can understand why reviewers of your work will bring up the slavery theme but why keep putting it in the same corner over and over? For me looking at chains and saying oh...wow, that's a piece about slavery or looking at the same piece and finding out that the artist meant it to be about DECAY and the process of starting out one material and changing or evolving into another....wow! Now that gets me to thinking! Slavery is almost a stereotype when you think of chain, but decay and evolution when applied to the same subject is almost electifying. Chain, chain of events, chain of evolution, chain leading to ? who knows where the chain is going....push the discussion towards something new [:)]

mefisto69 -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 6:36:33 PM)
from what ive seen historiclly - leg irons wold have no more than 2 feet of chain between the metal anklets.... and chain for the wrists even shorter. they more than likely are anchor chains. if you have the time you can probably find dated material in old ship building records.... if you really need to prove a point. when people get that kind of stupid, i just walk away. i play classical piano music from Spain and Latin America. many people in the 'field' here in the states disrespect it. it's my niche, my art... and i wont stop presenting it because some bunched up anus doesnt believe that non - northern europeans are capable if creating enduring high art.

Lucienne -> RE: Racial Dilemma ? (10/27/2009 7:29:53 PM)
He's not an artist. He's a jeweler.

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