RE: 10.4% Unemployment (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/9/2009 6:40:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK

NO we sold ourselves out when we went to foreign 'outsourcing'.
And we weakened a whole lot of things when that happened.
We need to return to US Made, US Built; it may cost more but it keeps us employed

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA


when US made/US built becomes more profitable than outsourcing (which it eventually will) then we will return to it. Our standard of living will be lower than it was, but that is the result of our competitors catching up to us, not a result of there being anything inherently wrong with outsourcing.




slvemike4u -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/9/2009 6:43:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK

NO we sold ourselves out when we went to foreign 'outsourcing'.
And we weakened a whole lot of things when that happened.
We need to return to US Made, US Built; it may cost more but it keeps us employed

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA
Yeah it cost more...but it built a solid middle class....yanno the people that actually bought the goods that cost more.....But our oh so responsible businessmen saw away to maximize the bottom line...hence outsourcing...well now the middle class is getting squeezed and falling into the lower class.....and we can't even afford the cheap shit made by the cheap foreign labor.
Perhaps the sky is falling!




Musicmystery -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/9/2009 6:48:07 PM)

Here's the thing, mike...

Bad as things are here right now, we're actually in better shape than our trading partners.




MzMia -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/9/2009 6:58:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK

NO we sold ourselves out when we went to foreign 'outsourcing'.
And we weakened a whole lot of things when that happened.
We need to return to US Made, US Built; it may cost more but it keeps us employed

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA
Yeah it cost more...but it built a solid middle class....yanno the people that actually bought the goods that cost more.....But our oh so responsible businessmen saw away to maximize the bottom line...hence outsourcing...well now the middle class is getting squeezed and falling into the lower class.....and we can't even afford the cheap shit made by the cheap foreign labor.
Perhaps the sky is falling!


That's the spirit, mike!
The sky is falling!

You are such a sweetie, I over-reacted in my post to you.
But, I had such a great time venting.
[;)] It just felt so good.
I know you enjoyed it, also!
Head for the hills! It's the end of the world!




MzMia -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/9/2009 7:24:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

I do not really see what exactly would drive the economy upwards. Job-less or job-loss recovery of course is a fiction in consumer driven economy. Some predict L shape economy with double digits unemployment for 10 years. Blaming Obama is unfair; the seeds for the crisis were planted several decades ago. It would require fundamental structural changes in the long-term economic model to turn things around. Regrettably US government is unfit to introduce long-term solutions. Things need to totally collapse first. I am not saying though this crisis is the turning point. The elites may invent some trick that would produce an another bubble and keep things going for some more years under the current rules. So, be happy unemployment is only 10+ % but not 20+ %. Christmas season sales data may bring some unpleasant  consequences. Invest in prison industry, it will be booming if unemployment keeps rising.


Another wonderful post!
Awesome, I agree!
President Obama hardly created this nightmare, it started with Reagan 30 years ago.

I have always blamed Ronald Reagan for promoting, advocating and allowing rampant outsourcing. 
There are hundreds and thousands of articles and books written to support this.

 
Out Sourcing America: Job Loss and Unemployment

Our Debt to Ronald Reagan | Mother Jones


 American Politics Journal - Reaganomics: A Grand, Failed Experiment




slvemike4u -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/9/2009 8:07:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK

NO we sold ourselves out when we went to foreign 'outsourcing'.
And we weakened a whole lot of things when that happened.
We need to return to US Made, US Built; it may cost more but it keeps us employed

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA
Yeah it cost more...but it built a solid middle class....yanno the people that actually bought the goods that cost more.....But our oh so responsible businessmen saw away to maximize the bottom line...hence outsourcing...well now the middle class is getting squeezed and falling into the lower class.....and we can't even afford the cheap shit made by the cheap foreign labor.
Perhaps the sky is falling!


That's the spirit, mike!
The sky is falling!

You are such a sweetie, I over-reacted in my post to you.
But, I had such a great time venting.
[;)] It just felt so good.
I know you enjoyed it, also!
Head for the hills! It's the end of the world!
Check the nick Mz Mia...of course I enjoyed it...the next best thing to actually being there [:D]




Mercnbeth -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/10/2009 1:02:09 AM)

quote:

I'm saying is his attitude,on the way out the fucking door is a little much.....
When you are right you are right Mike; that is ALL you are saying. There is no response contradicting what I'm saying. You asked me what the Administration has done to contribute to the poor economic results. I'll assume you read the answer and chose not to reply with a contrary position.

Asking flat out the reciprocal question, I wonder if you are capable of doing the same. What has the administration and Congress done to turn the economy around and increase employment? "It would have been worse."; is not a response. That's faith and trust in the source. What proactive program has been implemented?




xssve -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/10/2009 5:26:06 AM)

Do you mean which efforts have been made that republicans have not gone all out to undermine? None, so far.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/10/2009 10:52:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Do you mean which efforts have been made that republicans have not gone all out to undermine? None, so far.


LMAO, you meant the Republicans who can't block anything the Dems want to pass?




OrionTheWolf -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/10/2009 2:39:31 PM)

~FR~

I see some digs and flippant responses to Merc's legitimate question. I keep reading in sources how things would have been worse if not for the stimulus, but I do not see anywhere that someone has said exactly how, with some facts to back that up. Being in the business sector myself, as a consultant to small and medium businesses, I can see how it would have been worse faster, but I do not believe that would have been a bad thing.

I see it like having a 18-21 year old in your home that is not working or doing what they need to do, to create their own life. Then one day they come home to no TV, frig and cabinets locked, and a note stating they have 30 days to leave. America needs a wake up call to make some of the changes that need to be made. The stimulus package is the equivilant of enabling a drug addict, and if the economy tanked because of mega corps and their politician puppets, then the "people" would have no choice but to wake up and deal with that.

Also, if more banks would have went under, then those assets they had would have been purchased by someone. Just like the foreclosure markets stimulated the economy some as new home owners and investors purchased homes, had them repaired and worked on.

We need to increase the GNP, to have a long term effect on the economy, which means Americans will need to compete for those manufacturing jobs in a global economy. There needs to be incentives for people with money to start manufacturing jobs in the US, and for consumers to buy those products.

I have several small manufacturers as clients (people with ideas), they have found a niche market, and their volume is such that making it here is cheaper than abroad. They are all in fear of someone doing it on a mass scale, producing it out of the US, and shipping it in. So the ideas can occur, but once a huge demand happens for that product a mega corp can take the idea, move it out of the US, make it cheaper and torpedo the original thinker.

Until much of this occurs, unemployment will continue to be a problem, and will only be temporarily propped up with government money.




NeedToUseYou -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/10/2009 10:52:24 PM)

Well, here's my view on how the economy could/can be saved.

What were the bailouts designed to save?
Answer: Banks, Investors, Selected MegaCorps.

I don't think anyone can with a straight face deny that.

Now, if the objective was to save the little guy. Small, Medium Businesses, working guy, the money would not have been distributed the way it was, thus my reason why it was exclusively designed solely for the benefit of Banks, Investors, and Selected MegaCorps.

The money loaned, granted, or credit risk deferral would have been targeted very simply directly to the Small, Medium Businesses and working guy.

Here's a simple way of doing so, instead of loaning, etc.. to Banks, Megacorps, in order to allow them to buy or maintain control over large sections of the real worth of this country, you'd have simply offered loans from the government directly to US based small and medium sized businesses. As in you'd take the trillions used to prop up the huge failed risky investments, instead of protecting that against collapse, you let it collapse, and you would have instead used those funds to offer couple percent interest loans to businesses the 100% will cycle most of that back into the economy.

In my view the damage would have been done by now. As what does a small business think about? Expanding... What is required to expand, employees, equipment, real estate purchases. Where do employers put there money in the banks. Where do employees spend their money in the local economy.

Where do Megacorps, Investors, and Banks put their money, they put it anywhere that they can get the highest rate of return regardless of all other factors.

Conclusion is giving(loaning at artificially low interest) money to people that are "trapped" into the local economy (US market), in the medium and long term will have a much much better impact than giving preferential treatment to Banks, Investors, and Megacorps, whose interests will invariably lead a large fraction of that money going into overseas investments, facilities, etc...

Here's the problem with the US, we have gotten duped into believing the fate of DOW, is somehow pivotal to the fate of the average joe. It's not, because most of the stock traded in those companies is held by a small percentage of people, and many of those companies produce and employ outside our borders. So, essentially the bailouts, ultimately only served to further hold the system of haves and havenots in place.

Megacorps, Banks, and Most Investors(those of consequence, not your little 401K), do not give to shits about the US, or any country, they care about returns, and there is nothing wrong with that, that is actually what they are legally bound to do, as in work exclusively in the interest of their stockholders. What is the problem, is that we are so delusional as a nation, to think otherwise, and sacrificed huge amounts of capital, and risk, for entities that will not reciprocate. Whereas a policy actually designed to help directly those with a vested direct interest in the US, and local economies, would not, or could not outsource, As in small business.


At this point though as the money has largely been devoted to the worst possible beneficiaries, and the government in its arrogance believes short term public works projects can make up for economically productive activity, there are not as many possibilities to actually help the domestic small, medium businesses.

One thing that could and should be done, is massive tax breaks for Non-Financial Based employers producing their products or Services in the US.

However, the mob is unlikely to see the benefit of US employers that employee US workers, as a worthwhile goal. Instead, only accept giving trillions in subsidized loans and risk transfer to save multi-nationals, and banks.

We are a schizophrenic nation, we say we don't like multi-nationals, we detest risky investments, we value small businesses, and personal initiative, yet all we've done to this point is help those we decry and refuse to do anything real to help those that would actually help us.

It's stupid.

The sky is falling if for no other reason than we are pulling it down.


Question: Who would you help?
A banker/insurer/megacorp CEO, you've never met, who lives in a 10 million dollar house(has several), who made trillion dollar bets that didn't work out.
or
A local business that employs people in your town, shops at stores in your town, buys his car at the towns dealership, pays his property taxes to your county, etc....

In the long term which is more likely to help you the most, regardless of transient dips and spikes of the DOW.


Well, our idiot nation, said the banker,insurer,megacorp is more important to us.

And is it confusing to see why, small, medium, and large business people think this country is fucked, well, its because we are shoving a corncob up our collective ass and complaining there is a corncob up our ass.

So, there are no jobs, no shit, we've only helped the section portions of the economy that produce transient US jobs, and are most likely to outsource.












servantforuse -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/11/2009 6:06:26 AM)

'Need', you are right. But the current administration is doing just the opposite. They will be taxing small business so much that they will be unable to stay afloat, let alone hire employees. The double wammy of the health care bill which they will pay for, and the upcoming cap and trade fiasco will do most of them in. 80% of workers work, or did work for small businesses. That is where any help should be directed.




xssve -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/11/2009 6:25:21 AM)

Servant, the SBA which does make loans to small businesses is one of the most successful government programs ever, with a positive balance sheet - it's also deeply hated by republicans, and one of the programs Bush vowed to eliminate immediately after the appointment.

I haven't looked recently to see how successful he was.




xssve -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/11/2009 6:37:48 AM)

quote:

Conventional wisdom has long held that small businesses are a crucial driver of the the nation's economy. Indeed, last week while on a visit to a Washington (D.C.)-area hardware store, President George W. Bush said: "Small businesses provide most of the job growth in our country. If the small-business sector is doing well, so is the American economy," according to the Associated Press. And Small Business Administration statistics show that the U.S. has 24.7 million businesses with fewer than 500 employees.

However, the SBA is an organization in transition. Lately, the words "embattled" and "beleaguered" have been used with frequency in describing both the SBA and its outgoing chief, Hector Barreto. Critics have charged President Bush with paying little more than lip service to the significant role that small businesses play, while weakening the SBA by significantly cutting its budget since he took office.

In April, Barreto announced his resignation from the SBA in order to head the Washington-based Hispanic business-advocacy group, the Latino Coalition. Appointed in 2001, Barreto, a California businessman, is the second longest-serving SBA administrator. But his tenure has been marked by much criticism, particularly regarding the agency's response to the hurricanes that devastated the Gulf Coast last year, as well as its handling of economic disaster-recovery loans to small businesses following the September 11 terrorist attacks
Business Week: The SBA's Iffy Future




xssve -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/11/2009 7:12:09 AM)

I do agree that if Obama continues the Bush administrations policy of snubbing small business, it will be a huge mistake.

Bush was an out an out corporate cock-whore from the get go, I really didn't expect any better from him, but I'd hate to think Obama is another ringer.




tazzygirl -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/11/2009 7:30:44 AM)

WASHINGTON—America’s small businesses, often called the driver of the U.S. economy, will finally get a break, if President Barack Obama has his way.

“American entrepreneurs and small businesses are the engines that create new jobs and develop the innovations that will keep our Nation strong,” Karen G. Mills, Small Business Administration (SBA) administrator, said during a Small Business White House ceremony, according to its Web site.

Obama promised to push through Congress a bill to increase small business loans from $2 million to $5 million, increasing “CDC-504” loans to $ 5.5 million, and SBA microloans from $35,000 to $55,000.

Currently, a CDC-504 loan provides small business entrepreneurs with a long-term, fixed-rate loan for up to $1 million to finance fixed assets such as equipment, real estate, and buildings

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/25020/




xssve -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/11/2009 7:41:41 AM)

The rhetoric is reassuring, but the reality is not so reassuring:

quote:

 Ironically, the loan program that has most suffered is the one that's perhaps most needed. The Community Express loan combines the higher guarantees of the traditional 7(a) loan with the reduced paperwork of the SBAExpress, and it's targeted to people who live in disadvantaged areas. But because it's pilot program, it's restricted to ten percent of the total number of 7(a) loans. As a result, Community Express lending has fallen nearly 80 percent.
Inc.: SBA Loans (Still) Plunging

More from Inc. on the SBA, including:

quote:

You might recall that a couple weeks back, the Obama Administration convened a "small business summit" to trumpet its efforts to shore up small business lending. Most notably, President Obama and Treasury Secretary Geithner determined that the Treasury Department would spend up to $15 billion to buy SBA-guaranteed loans. The idea was to loosen up SBA credit by unfreezing the secondary market for those loans; banks or middlemen who sell their loans to the government could then use the proceeds to make or buy new loans.

So what's happened with that initiative? Nothing, according to the Washington Post. "Every major provider of these kinds of loans," the newspaper reported on Wednesday, "says the plan will not work as designed."
Why Obama's Small Biz Rescue Plan is Collapsing




Anarrus -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/11/2009 7:54:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

The sky is falling if for no other reason than we are pulling it down.


Question: Who would you help?
A banker/insurer/megacorp CEO, you've never met, who lives in a 10 million dollar house(has several), who made trillion dollar bets that didn't work out.
or
A local business that employs people in your town, shops at stores in your town, buys his car at the towns dealership, pays his property taxes to your county, etc....

In the long term which is more likely to help you the most, regardless of transient dips and spikes of the DOW.


Well, our idiot nation, said the banker,insurer,megacorp is more important to us.

And is it confusing to see why, small, medium, and large business people think this country is fucked, well, its because we are shoving a corncob up our collective ass and complaining there is a corncob up our ass.

So, there are no jobs, no shit, we've only helped the section portions of the economy that produce transient US jobs, and are most likely to outsource.



You said a mouthful in stating the above and we as a nation have only ourselves to blame for being duped by the mega ponzi scheme and casino we call Wall Street. I'm old enough to remember a time when investing, playing the stock market and rambo style wealth-building were pursuits mostly left to those with extra available cash and pretty sound business and investment knowledge....in other words , the experts. It wasn't, at one time, really a place for the average joe to dabble, in the hope of accumulating wealth, nor in my opinion was it meant to be. To be fair, a few average joes did and do well, but many didn't and haven't.
Financial investments such as US Savings Bonds (remember them?), company run pension plans and compound interest on regularly deposited savings were more in the realm of what was commonly available and understood by your average working class person....and with patience and diligence they worked well for modest financial goals. 

But somewhere along the way "democratization" of financial markets occurred. Along with that it became very trendy, chiche in fact, to be an investor and a player in waters where the big sharks swim. Television ads for US Savings Bonds and savings accounts were replaced by ads for mutual funds, investment groups and brokers, all who purport to be the answer to the grabbing that elusive pot of gold and with claims such as being "bullish on America"; and worse, to be your friend, to be on your side when in reality they're doing what they do only to make themselves money and couldn't care less if you win or lose as long as they get their commission check.

Along with everything else, tv shows such as Lifestyles of The Rich and Famous plus a plethora of printed media and perodicals elaborated on and tantalized with the glamor of just how cool it is to be rich and that greed is good (and again, to be fair, maybe it is). We were brainwashed and propagandaized into idolizing and supporting the bankers, the insureres, the meagcorps in the hope we can all become like them. We were also brainwashed into rampant consumerism and a "gotta have it all now" mentality. But somewhere along the way we've been lead to believe that it can be done easily and done by all and that we should all be doing it and hold doing it and those institutions in the highest of regard.
In short, we've been collectively duped and yes we are idiots for allowing it to happen.

edit for spelling




xssve -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/11/2009 8:10:23 AM)

I agree - that all happened in the Eighties, when Reagan republicans decided to divide the world into "winners" and "losers", what's called a binary mytheme, that happened to fuel a neurotic, Narcissistic obsession with conspicuous consumption and living beyond one's means - it's why the the Laffer curve took a dive - we shifted from a cash economy to a credit/debt economy, from manufacturing to service, from "work hard" to "make money off of other peoples hard work" - the stock market, i.e. work is for losers, investment is for winners, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, etc.

Just as Leave it to Beaver touched off a wave of petty crime (see: perception of inequality), Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous touched of a wave of corporate crime that not only continues unabated, but has taken on an aura of legitimcacy.

Adam Smith was fairly cynical about the stock market himself and didn't really consider it integral to Capitalism.




tazzygirl -> RE: 10.4% Unemployment (11/11/2009 10:06:36 AM)

Ahem... did you check out the dates of your two articles? I would think you would offer something a tad bit more recent than the beginning of 2009 for a rebuttal of something that is being spoken about now.

January 8, 2009
SBA Loans (Still) Plunging

April 3, 2009
Why Obama's Small Biz Rescue Plan Is Collapsing

Making or Breaking U.S. Small Businesses By Heide B. Malhotra
Epoch Times Staff Nov 10, 2009

Especially since the SBA officer named in the article i provided was sworn in April 6, 2009...

quote:

Karen G. Mills was sworn in April 6, 2009, as the 23rd Administrator of the U.S. Small Business Administration




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