RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty.

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty.

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3]

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 4:11:41 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I guess we are using a different English... To reconcile is to make compatible to me means there is a difference to begin with ...I am not sure there is a difference to reconcile.

But I don't want to go on and on about the meaning of your post ...I just hope I am making myself clear...and I will not waste your time further.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 41

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 4:15:02 PM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This is directed towards christians (obviously).
How do you reconcile supporting the death penalty with your faith and the teachings of Jesus?
If you do not support the death penalty, is it your faith or your ethics that play a part?

the.dark.

I don't support the death penalty, so I don't have to worry about reconciling anything. I am not sure that my faith really has anything to do with it though. Most of it has to do with not trusting the system to not screw up and fry the wrong guy.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 42

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 5:28:30 PM

Hierodule

Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline

There is the conflict between a belief in Christ and support of the Death Penalty. If you believe the bible is the word of god, and that the new testament quotes Jesus directly, and you still support the death penalty there are some things you need to reconcile.
Here it is from the proverbial horse's mouth:

The Sermon on the Mount Matthew chapter 5

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. ... 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So that is what you should practice, If you believe in that sort of thing

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 43

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 5:31:52 PM

Daddysredhead

Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline

I'm a Christian and I support the death penalty. I also work in the legal profession and pretty much have faith in the system.

_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut

(in reply to Hierodule)

Post #: 44

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 5:46:23 PM

breatheasone

Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

i thought this was a good read.

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to Daddysredhead)

Post #: 45

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 6:00:24 PM

Hierodule

Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline

In the article you linked to the author states "God’s laws are to be considered binding, unless He tells us there is a change." here is where Jesus says there is a change:

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also

That article is interesting, it explains how you can love your enemy and still kill them. Quite a feat of logic! But it conveniently ignores Jesus expressly stating that the eye for eye thing no longer applies.

< Message edited by Hierodule -- 11/12/2009 6:08:42 PM >

(in reply to breatheasone)

Post #: 46

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 6:23:50 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

You left out 17of that chapter "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Also, If you will study different translations, you will see that Jesus is speaking that not only should you not murder, you should not look at your brother and hold murder in your heart. If you look at the entire chapter, Jesus is preaching that to even hold these intentions and feelings in your heart, is to commit these sins. As an example, look at the one concerning adultery, where Jesus is stating that it is always better to remove anything that may tempt you to sin, or is the cause of sin within you. Look at the one that you quote, and it is speaking of holding hatred and anger in your heart.

Also, it is very doubtful that Jesus would have ever used the word Pagan, as at that time the word meant rustic, or of the country (rural). That word alone in the translation you are using is enough to cast doubt on the accuracy of the interpretation. Sorry but Jerome made many mistakes in his translations.

Oy vey!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

There is the conflict between a belief in Christ and support of the Death Penalty. If you believe the bible is the word of god, and that the new testament quotes Jesus directly, and you still support the death penalty there are some things you need to reconcile.
Here it is from the proverbial horse's mouth:

The Sermon on the Mount Matthew chapter 5

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. ... 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So that is what you should practice, If you believe in that sort of thing

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Hierodule)

Post #: 47

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 6:30:05 PM

Hierodule

Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline

Isn't supporting the death penalty holding murder in your heart? Isn't looking at an accused man and wishing death on him essentially the same as committing murder then? In the least of your brothers. THE LEAST. You will find him. Who is lower than a convicted murderer?

Nit pick the word "pagan" if you want. Find me a translation that doesn't say "turn the other cheek" and maybe you will have an argument. I'm not Christian but I had 8 years of bible study in private school.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 48

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 6:32:06 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Do not offer immediate retaliation for insult or injury (backhanded would strike a person on the right cheek, and was a grave insult during biblical times), but instead offer reconciliation first. I really recommend some in depth study if you are going to use these quotes in discussions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

In the article you linked to the author states "God’s laws are to be considered binding, unless He tells us there is a change." here is where Jesus says there is a change:

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also

That article is interesting, it explains how you can love your enemy and still kill them. Quite a feat of logic! But it conveniently ignores Jesus expressly stating that the eye for eye thing no longer applies.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Hierodule)

Post #: 49

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 6:33:34 PM

Hierodule

Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline

see above wishing death on anyone is holding hatred in your heart

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 50

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 6:38:22 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

Isn't supporting the death penalty holding murder in your heart?

Actually not. Murder is a specific term that requires hatred, and vile contempt (I believe vile contempt is the phrase, but it has been a while since my studies).

quote:

Isn't looking at an accused man and wishing death on him essentially the same as committing murder then?

You are mistaking murder for killing. If this were the case, the Christian God would consider killing to defend or in wartime equal to the same crime of breaking that commandment. We know from reading the OT, that the God of Abraham many times has commanded his people to battle. So, this means there must be a difference in the term "murder" and killing.

quote:

In the least of your brothers. THE LEAST. You will find him. Who is lower than a convicted murderer?

Actual study of who Jesus is preaching about and to, is needed to have good context. The Pharisees were all about the letter of the law, condemning those they consider lowly, or least, of their own people.

quote:

Nit pick the word "pagan" if you want. Find me a translation that doesn't say "turn the other cheek" and maybe you will have an argument. I'm not Christian but I had 8 years of bible study in private school.

Not nitpicking, I am pointing out that if you find several errors in translation of a manuscript, then you may want to find a different translation without as many errors. I could care less how many years you have had to study it incorrectly. If your personal belief is a certain way, that is fine, but obviously your bible study has been deficient in a few areas.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Hierodule)

Post #: 51

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 6:39:46 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Do you hate the cattle that you eat? Do you hate a murderer that you must defend your house from? Do you hate the enemy that thrusts at you with their spear? Sorry but hate is not required to kill, and sometimes even compassion is used to kill.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

see above wishing death on anyone is holding hatred in your heart

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Hierodule)

Post #: 52

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 7:00:49 PM

Hierodule

Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline

You might think my bible study was wrong. Maybe that's because it was different from yours. It was not only Catholic but Jesuit in Nature. My teachers opposed abortion, the death penalty, and war in general. They emphasized love and forgiveness. Killing as retribution was not compassionate in their eyes. Killing by a secular institution that does not believe in God or a Judgment after death is revenge pure and simple. It does not allow for moral examination of the act. Its a cop out. Those are my teacher's words not mine. Revenge isn't even necessarily bad to me. I'm not a Christian. I don't even believe in sin. I simply think that Christians who support putting people to death as a form of revenge have some things to reconcile. Maybe thats because I was raised as a different flavor of christian.

Examples of how Catholics feel about the Death Penalty:

VENGEANCE OR FORGIVENESS? We believe much of capital punishment's support springs from a desire for revenge or from a desperate attempt to balance the terrible damage wrought by a capital crime. And such feelings are understandable in the face of brutal and senseless violence inflicted upon innocent people. Justice is a legitimate desire. However, we believe that justice cannot be achieved through vengeance. This belief is deeply rooted in our Scriptures. While many people claim that the bible endorses capital punishment, the verse generally used as a support (Leviticus 24:20, "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth") is in fact a plea for less violence, by urging people not to avenge one offense with a larger one. In the Gospels, Jesus said that retaliation was an incorrect response to violence. Rather, Jesus tells us to offer the other cheek and extend our hand in blessing and healing (Matthew 5:38-48).
Indiana Catholic Conference August 1998

"Crime is both a manifestation of the great mysteries of evil and human freedom and an aspect of the very complex reality that is contemporary society. We should not expect simple or easy solutions to what is a profound evil, and even less should we rely on capital punishment to provide such a solution." --U.S. Catholic Bishops, Statement on Capital Punishment, 1980

"...the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: In other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent." --Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, 1995

< Message edited by Hierodule -- 11/12/2009 7:02:53 PM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 53

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 7:14:05 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

This post of yours shows that your teachings, as well as the ideaology is manifest due to things other than religious text. My study was independent, not sponsored by any denomination with a predetermined meaning for each and every scripture.

I agree that justice cannot be achieved through vengence, but not all actions that are detrimental to someone is an act of vengence. If what you say is true, to remove someone's life, is the same as removing their liberty, which would make any condemnation where they may suffer, an act of vengence. If your literal interpretation is to hold water, then all punishments should come from God, and not via man's hands.

You again are making the word "murder" and "kill" one and the same, which it is not. So if that is the case, reconcile that rule across the entire spectrum. Now do not forget that Jesus did not change anything, he merely fullfilled and clarified things. Also, take into account that he is actually not the most influentual person that had a bearing on how the bible was written, or translated.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Hierodule)

Post #: 54

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 7:24:04 PM

Hierodule

Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline

It just goes to show that there are a lot of interpretations of the scriptures. If you feel comfortable believing in the bible and supporting the death penalty, then I don't need to argue with you. I assure you, those bishops that oppose the death penalty can find MUCH in the bible to support their case. You found what you needed in the book and you sleep with a clear conscious. Your study was right because it supports what you believe. Mine was wrong because it doesn't. I'm glad you find comfort in your faith. Others see something else in the teaching of Christ. I guess the lesson is that its quite subjective. Have a good night.

< Message edited by Hierodule -- 11/12/2009 7:30:01 PM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 55

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 10:42:52 PM

Llaeros

Posts: 4
Joined: 11/7/2009
Status: offline

On the OP's original question, looking at Leviticus 24: 19-21, which states "Anyone who maims another shall suffer the same injury in return, fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; the injury inflicted is the injury to be suffered. One who kills an animal is to make restitution for it; but one who kills a human being is to be put to death", there are, in my opinion, two basic ways for someone who is a Christian to approach the question.

At first glance, it can be said that this passage is about reaping vengeance/justice (the two often being, and rightly so, one in the same). A death for a death, a wound for a wound, simple enough. So in a way the Book of Leviticus exhorts swift and properly apportioned justice. The harm that one does will be visited back upon you equally.

Secondly, it can be seen as a kind of biblical "statute of limitations". I mean, if someone breaks your leg, then killing them is a little extreme. Read this way, it seems to warn against overzealous justice and wildly disproportionate punishments. So this is kind of like a literary scales of justice. There is the call for punishment, but temepered with wisdom caution.

Not really one right answer to the question, just what an individual feels is true for themselves.

_____________________________

Of all knowledge, gnosis is king-Anonymous

(in reply to Hierodule)

Post #: 56

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/12/2009 10:45:06 PM

Llaeros

Posts: 4
Joined: 11/7/2009
Status: offline

Sorry, I should have said on the 1st of the OP's stated questions.

_____________________________

Of all knowledge, gnosis is king-Anonymous

(in reply to Llaeros)

Post #: 57

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/13/2009 7:07:02 AM

Irishknight

Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

I find it amazing that some can tell what another holds in his heart... whether it be malice or not. If I were to catch some in the act of harming my family and I killed him... my intentions would be to stop him... no other thoughts. The fact that I have been trained to kill would probably account for the person's death in the act of me stopping them. I would be accused of consciously deciding to kill them but the truth is, I would probably not be in my conscious mind. I would not know what happened to the attacker until my conscious mind reasserted control and my family member was known to be safe. In affect, I would be on autopilot in my mission to stop the attacker and save my loved one.
If I hunted the same person down AFTER he hurt them and killed him.... my only thought would be revenge.
If I allowed the courts to try, convict and execute him, I have forgone my desire for revenge to allow justice to be done according to the law. My thoughts would most likely be a sense of relief that it was over... not of anything else.

It is only AFTER these events happen that anyone else can begin to guess what I was thinking. It is somewhere around the 5th of Never that ANYONE BUT ME will know for sure what was in my heart and mind. Only in the second situation could you even begin to fathom my thought processes with any reasonable chance of success.

What your personal religious beliefs tell you about these things... is personal and different for every person. Some of you should try to remember that different opinions on these type of things is how we got so many flavors of christians in the world. Don't get mad at others because they believe differently than you. That is one of the things that chases people away from churches. Who wants to go to church to hear the same shit you can hear from Dems and Pubs or Libs and Cons?

_____________________________

What man is a man who does not make his world better?

Soldiers died for your right to be ungrateful.

(in reply to Llaeros)

Post #: 58

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/13/2009 7:43:23 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Now do not forget that Jesus did not change anything, he merely fullfilled and clarified things. Also, take into account that he is actually not the most influentual person that had a bearing on how the bible was written, or translated.

Oh now - this I really like for a discussion - but not on this thread so I will start another.
Thank you Orion.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 59

RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty. - 11/13/2009 8:39:01 PM

Esinn

Posts: 886
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This is directed towards christians (obviously).
How do you reconcile supporting the death penalty with your faith and the teachings of Jesus?
If you do not support the death penalty, is it your faith or your ethics that play a part?

the.dark.

Quick Reply:

I never understood this. Early christians were the most(not some of the most) ruthless & violent people out there. Up until the early 1900's this fact was so obvious it hurt. Christ was a delusional demanding psycho path. He incorrectly predicted the end of times, attempted to up root functional governments, caused social friction, had some sort of anti-cultural thing going against women, made horrific threats to those who did not follow, turned families against each, demanded without much explanation people leave their family for him other, talked massive shit about all things 'of the world'(Earthly possessions), wanted people to saw off hands and stab out eyes and so forth. Christ was a self adsorbed prick.

Christ as portrayed by the bible is not the meek and mild person modern christianity wishes you to believe he is/was(if he ever existed). Like YHVH he was a blood thirsty power hungry maniac - again I am just using the bible.

The USA has more people in jail than any other industrialized nation in the world. Well over 2,000 people a day are violently and brutally murdered(I pulled that out of thin air. But in Philadelphia, PA a person a day was murdered). Over 75% of the current population is Christian.... 80% if we lump in the deranged Catholics.

It is only reasonable to assume as theists make up the vast majority of the population they are directly responsible for the vast majority of the crime. I do not think it is statistically possible for that to be untrue; show me if I am wrong please. Taking a look at Africa, China, Ireland or numerous examples christians still openly slaughter, rape, torture and murder people of opposing religions.

So it always drops my jaw when people assume christians ought to be 'better', more peaceful, more loving or kinder? It is very strange.

This just means you are buying the BS their religion is ramming down your tired throat.

_____________________________

Let's break the law

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 60

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3]

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Christianity Vs. Death Penalty.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3]

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.109