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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 6:37:03 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Anerin,

That is not going to work, the companies insurance wont go for it and their risk is even greater. Look, lets say the cook is making his signature dirty sock and skidmark soup, and popeye (in general for squids not our popeye) didn't get the extra helping, and he gets a little snootful of grog, and decides to cakk the cook for that imagined slight.  Who do you spose is buying that fiasco, when the insurance lawyers pile on?

And that doesnt even address iraqi ships bound for western ports toting guns, or russians, or chinese, koreans and the like and the obverse situation  american merchant ships powering into Hanoi, or Bejing, or Vladivostok, or wherever........let alone into anywhere in the middle east right now, things being what they are........


Ron
Ron 

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 6:38:58 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		So the consensus is, no trials for these kinds of criminals, just kill em. Good I agree.

< Message edited by luckydawg -- 11/21/2009 6:39:34 PM >

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 6:41:26 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhodes85

'Should the British government relent in this instance? Or should it allow the Chandlers to die or be handed over to terrorists? '

No they should not relent. If you accept a pirates demands and hand over a ransom it only lets them know you will do the same in the future, and makes it more likely that they will take more hostages. There really isn't a good solution to the problem here. Attempting a rescue would most likely get everyone killed.

Well if you think they're going to be killed anyway unless the ransom is paid, what the hell's the difference? At least fucking try. On the other hand, we don't know for a fact that they'll be killed. The pirates may let them go, chalk it up to an experiment that failed, and figure that's better than attracting more flak. After all, they don't have to kill anybody to get a shipping company to pay. Just threaten to scuttle the ship with its cargo.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 7:34:35 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I expect the criminals will let them go, as they really have no beef with them, and as Kirata said, possibly it is just an experiment to see how far they can go. Pay the ransome, and hey, there's money to be made in this, they will do it all the more. There is of course the possibility that they will be killed, if the experiment does go wrong, but they hope to try again.

Remember, the world in our modern times, is a stage, what happens of interest goes worldwide. Hostages die, condemnation happens, and deciders get flack, not very good, with a governmental election coming up in the next six months or so, but perhaps the kidnappers know this and are using it.

A sticky situation and a no win situation, perhaps it would just solve everything, if the Chandlers just turned up free in another country with no questions asked.

Maybe there is behind the scenes work going on already, the world stage may never know that.


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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 7:49:41 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		FR-
I agree with Kirata.
I have read the articles that document the facts of the Somali's complaints, and they have justification to be angry.
BUT....the incursions into Somali waters are done because there is no Somali government which could lodge a complaint with the UN, or WTO, or defend themselves. There is no Somali government because....
the Somali people have destroyed every one which was formed. If the Somali fishermen want the protections of a lawful society they should form one.

In the end, we may have to resort to armed Naval escorts of all shipping traffic along the Horn of Africa. The only reason we are not doing this now (so I am told) is that there isn't really enough of a problem that the Western powers are willing to devote the enormous Naval resources just for that. It would take (Again so I am told) dozens of ships, helicopters, yadda yadda. Few nations are willing to tie up their navies this way. Yet.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 8:22:59 PM   
HunterS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

I find it most interesting that you find time to pick out and post a spelling error but fail to even atempt to address the point that you quote.

I assume you mean "attempt".

I addressed the Somali complaint in the quote as follows:

Engaging in indiscriminate piracy is not an acceptable solution to the problem, no matter how legitimate their grievances or how sympathetic your views.

K.


How could I have expected anything less.
You of course feel the same way about the U.S. privateers.

H.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 8:30:26 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

You of course feel the same way about the U.S. privateers.

To make that connection, either the (so-called) "pirates" would have to in fact be operating under Letters of Marque from the Somali government, or your knowledge of what you're talking about would have to be zero. Wanna take a wild guess?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/21/2009 8:37:00 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 8:44:29 PM   
MsD


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Joined: 4/25/2004
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quote:

After all, they don't have to kill anybody to get a shipping company to pay. Just threaten to scuttle the ship with its cargo.


ahhh ... but notice, Maersk didn't pay when the Alabama was taken in April & would not have paid if it had been taken again. Scuttle the ships? Hells bells! These Somalian pirates don't even have the means to unload the cargo! How the hell do you think they'd have the means to scuttle a vessel?

Another point here is that these pirates are not just targeting cargo vessels. They are targeting any vessel that travels these waters, including a Spanish fishing trawler ($3.3mil ransom pd), an Italian cruise ship (armed guards aboard drove away pirates), and, of course, the aforementioned Chandlers' private vessel. It appears the pirates' only criteria is defined by their appraisal that someone will pay an ungodly ransom.

There is a fleet of a dz or so vessels from European Union, U.S., China, Russia & India - all patrolling in the area to help protect food-aid cargo vessels. Since that is pretty much the only thing aboard the Maersk Alabama, it's pretty obvious this is insufficient. IMO this global naval task force needs to be beefed up. More countries need to join in; more vessels need to be present and visibly patrolling the waters. Only through an overwhelming presence of the kind of firepower on a fighting vessel will make the Somali pirates start backing off. It needs to be clearly demonstrated that there is no way in hell that they will be allowed to capture any other ship, be it cargo, fishing, or whatever. Armed guards are not necessary in most of the lanes where cargo & cruise vessels sail, but they certainly are necessary in the Gulf of Aden lane. Unfortunately, they are not really sufficient in stopping these guys. A real fear within the shipping industry is that the armed guards firing upon the pirates will only escalate the violence. I firmly believe it will take the mighty firepower of naval vessels to make them realize the gig is up.

Regarding the comments about armed guards helicoptering off the cargo vessel before it docks, this is a pic of the Maersk Alabama - obviously no room for a heli pad on a cargo vessel.





Attachment (1)

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 9:01:26 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsD

How the hell do you think they'd have the means to scuttle a vessel?

The usual ways... by opening valves or hatches to the sea; by ripping the hull open with explosives; or by driving it onto the rocks.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 9:17:03 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 9:18:38 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		And we don't even need to waste time with trials for them.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 9:18:42 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		Fuck it. Image embedding isn't working.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 11/21/2009 9:19:27 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 9:39:46 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

what on Earth could you threaten them with that hasn't been done to Somalia over the last ten years already?

I don't know. Have we done anything with a few of these yet?



K.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

what on Earth could you threaten them with that hasn't been done to Somalia over the last ten years already?

I don't know. Have we done anything with a few of these yet?



K.


Personally, I'm partial to a flight of F-18s. At over 1100 MPH, they can get from Point A to Point B quickly enough to actually influence the outcome. Optimally, by blowing the pirate vessel out of the water. The only way this piracy fad is going to be snuffed out is by sinking some of the bastards. No mercy; destroy them. Many of them, often. Until they find a new occupation.


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In the forest of the night
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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 10:24:06 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Personally, I'm partial to a flight of F-18s. At over 1100 MPH, they can get from Point A to Point B quickly enough to actually influence the outcome. Optimally, by blowing the pirate vessel out of the water. The only way this piracy fad is going to be snuffed out is by sinking some of the bastards. No mercy; destroy them. Many of them, often. Until they find a new occupation.

Can I assume then that the image you were trying to embed was something along these lines?



K.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 11:12:44 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Thats a nice image Kirata.....all apologies to my liberal friends but that's one sleek and sexy war machine :)

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 11:21:58 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

that's one sleek and sexy war machine :)

They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
For trying to change the system from within
I'm coming now, I'm coming to reward them
First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin

I'm guided by a signal in the heavens
I'm guided by this birthmark on my skin
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons
First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin

~Leonard Cohen

K.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 11:43:46 PM   
Rhodes85


Posts: 445
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline 		Uh Kirata I didn't say they shouldn't try. Just that it likely wouldn't end well.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/22/2009 12:25:09 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhodes85

Uh Kirata I didn't say they shouldn't try. Just that it likely wouldn't end well.

Okay, fair enough.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/22/2009 2:57:58 AM   
HunterS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

So the consensus is, no trials for these kinds of criminals, just kill em. Good I agree.


You are agreeing with yourself not  a consensus.

H.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/22/2009 9:36:49 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

So the consensus is, no trials for these kinds of criminals, just kill em. Good I agree.


You are agreeing with yourself not  a consensus.

H.


Welcome to the world of Lucky....One man and his consensus.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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