RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 1:22:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brain It is an internal military matter and has nothing to do with Obama. And what a ridiculous thing to say after George Bush left us with only 1 bill of right. And if you don't believe that ask Keith Olbermann. quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Thats absolutly insane. If they go to trial, Obamas impeachment should start the next day... Ask Keith Olbermann? why in gods name would anyone ask that moron anything?

CelticSubM -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 1:27:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Another way to view it is "Others have done worse, and it is their ideology and expressed intent to continue their atrocities." That is the best defense possible. What anyone else does or intends to do is irrelevant. All members of the US military have obligations under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, as well as obligations under whatever general orders, rules of engagement and specific orders they are operating under at any given time. Without discipline, a military unit would rapidly lose its morale and effectiveness.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 1:29:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Here's what they did to the Americans they captured. Somehow a fat lip seems kind of minor by comparison. Even justified. Whether he had it coming is completely beside the point as far as the military is concerned. To them, the point is - did they violate military regulations by doing it to him? And that's it. Do you genuinely not understand that, or is it just that you don't believe in the law?

Musicmystery -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 1:30:30 PM)
Or military discipline.

Brain -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 1:32:13 PM)
I am very confident in the legal system, whether it's military or civil, and I expect these men to be acquitted. Furthermore, people are sick of war, this insanity has gone on longer than the second world war and it's time to start fighting terrorism using our brains and getting value for money instead of privatizing the war to companies like Blackwater and bankrupting the country. Maybe we should increase your taxes to pay for this war on terror since you want to keep them in Iraq, Afghanistan indefinitely. Just when did you say you wanted to bring them back exactly? Obama should be impeached for being a moron to send more troops over there. There are no troops to defend the United States at home if anything happens now, there will not be enough troops to protect the country; Nevermind if anything happens in Iran or North Korea. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Its a bad time to be a front line American serviceman of any stripe. CIA, Green Beret, just name it. quote: Hero SEALS face rap for fiend's bloody lip Three Navy SEALs involved in nabbing one of Iraq's most wanted terrorists are reportedly facing criminal charges related to his capture -- all because he claimed he had a bloody lip. The SEALs took down Ahmed Hasim Abed, the alleged mastermind of a ghastly 2004 incident in which four American contractors who worked security for Blackwater USA, were murdered in Fallujah and two of the bodies were hung from a bridge over the Euphrates River. But instead of being praised as heroes, the SEALs are all facing charges and have hired lawyers, FoxNews.com reported. The three enlisted men, Petty Officers Matthew McCabe, Jonathan Keefe and Julio Huertas, got into hot water after Abed, whose military code name was "Objective Amber," said his captors had punched him. To prove it, he showed off the bloody lip. A legal source told Fox News that Abed made the complaint when he was in the hands of Iraqi authorities, causing him to be returned to American custody. An official investigation was launched and led to the three SEALs. McCabe was charged with assault, dereliction of performance of duty for willfully failing to safeguard a detainee as well as making a false official statement. Keefe and Huertas were both charged with dereliction of performance of duty and making a false official statement. Huertas was also charged with impeding an investigation. All three have refused a non-judicial punishment -- called an admiral's mast -- and have requested courts-martial. They will be arraigned on Dec. 7. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/hero_seals_face_rap_for_fiend_bloody_ITuJdA8JJ8WbYkAmQzE8OP Read more here: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/11/025016.php http://www.debbieschlussel.com/12746/hey-dont-give-terrorist-murderers-a-fat-lip/

philosophy -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 2:13:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Another way to view it is "Others have done worse, and it is their ideology and expressed intent to continue their atrocities." That is the best defense possible. ....how is that defence against the charge that an individual has broken theior own code? The difference between normal people and terrorists is that the former are, largely, law-abiding and the latter have made a conscious decision to ignore laws in pursuit of whatever agenda they hold dear. Terrorists want us to act with the same disregard for civilised behaviour that they do. It's their best recruiting tool. The most effective thing we can do is to hold to our laws. These military men may have broken their own code of conduct. Doesn't matter who they broke it on. Could be a terrorists, could be a shoplifter.....doesn't matter. What does matter is that these men signed up to a code.......and breaking that code is the offence.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 3:30:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CelticSubM quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Another way to view it is "Others have done worse, and it is their ideology and expressed intent to continue their atrocities." That is the best defense possible. What anyone else does or intends to do is irrelevant. All members of the US military have obligations under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, as well as obligations under whatever general orders, rules of engagement and specific orders they are operating under at any given time. Without discipline, a military unit would rapidly lose its morale and effectiveness. And if youve ever been in the military in time of war you know that the UCMJ has all of the weight of the Sunday funnies when youre trying to stay alive and accomplish your mission. That isnt a loss of discipline, that is taught to you the day you walk out of AIT.

CelticSubM -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 3:46:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy And if youve ever been in the military in time of war you know that the UCMJ has all of the weight of the Sunday funnies when youre trying to stay alive and accomplish your mission. That isnt a loss of discipline, that is taught to you the day you walk out of AIT. Your mission is what your superior officers have defined it to be. The UCMJ and the military justice system recognize the complexities, uncertainties and dangers a soldier faces on the battlefield. No commanding officer is eager to see men under his command face charges. These alleged acts did not take place on the battlefield, so that's not really relevant here, anyway. Making false statements to superior officers is a fundamental violation of military honor. An officer cannot afford to have to wonder whether he can rely on those under his command to give accurate information.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 4:38:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CelticSubM quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy And if youve ever been in the military in time of war you know that the UCMJ has all of the weight of the Sunday funnies when youre trying to stay alive and accomplish your mission. That isnt a loss of discipline, that is taught to you the day you walk out of AIT. Your mission is what your superior officers have defined it to be. The UCMJ and the military justice system recognize the complexities, uncertainties and dangers a soldier faces on the battlefield. No commanding officer is eager to see men under his command face charges. These alleged acts did not take place on the battlefield, so that's not really relevant here, anyway. Making false statements to superior officers is a fundamental violation of military honor. An officer cannot afford to have to wonder whether he can rely on those under his command to give accurate information. and a grunt can't afford to wonder whether his actions, no matter how necessary, will be second guessed, and that is the position many in the military are in today. and these ridiculous charges only make that worse.

Musicmystery -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 4:55:13 PM)
quote: and a grunt can't afford to wonder whether his actions, no matter how necessary, will be second guessed, and that is the position many in the military are in today. and these ridiculous charges only make that worse. If, as some are reporting, this happened when the guy was already in custody, though, your statement doesn't apply.

CelticSubM -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 4:55:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy and a grunt can't afford to wonder whether his actions, no matter how necessary, will be second guessed, and that is the position many in the military are in today. and these ridiculous charges only make that worse. When is it ever necessary to lie to superior officers? When is it ever necessary to abuse a prisoner who is already securely detained? The accused will have the opportunity to present any evidence for their innocence and any evidence of extenuating circumstances. Had they accepted the captain's mast procedure, the charges would have been quickly resolved, most likely with only a reprimand. They would not have had a criminal record. They could still have appealed for administrative review and sentence reduction. By asking for a special court-martial, they do now risk imprisonment and having a criminal record. One wonders about the quality of legal advice that they are receiving.

Sanity -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 4:58:09 PM)
Its a little more than "others have done worse" isn't it. Its personal. According to these reports the terrorist who got the fat lip was responsible for the torture, murder, burning and dismemberment of fellow countrymen. And its a fat lip - practically nothing. quote: ORIGINAL: CelticSubM quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity ....Somehow a fat lip seems kind of minor by comparison. Even justified. Saying "Others have done worse." is no defense. In a way it's worse than no defense. It's an admission that no defense is possible.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 4:58:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: and a grunt can't afford to wonder whether his actions, no matter how necessary, will be second guessed, and that is the position many in the military are in today. and these ridiculous charges only make that worse. If, as some are reporting, this happened when the guy was already in custody, though, your statement doesn't apply. nonsense. Who knows what the circumstances were.

Sanity -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 5:05:42 PM)
Sorry, Greedy. But thats what the fellow who got the fat lip did. quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop JESUS!! A graphic photo warning might have been nice.....

Politesub53 -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 5:18:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy nonsense. Who knows what the circumstances were. The navy seal commander who the incident was reported too does. So does the sailor who reported it to him.

CelticSubM -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 5:19:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Sorry, Greedy. But thats what the fellow who got the fat lip did.... Again, that's of no relevance. Abed will have his case to answer. The accused petty officers have their cases to answer. Perhaps all are guilty as charged. Perhaps all are innocent, or some innocent and some guilty. That is for the relevant courts to decide. The accusation against the petty officers came from one of their own comrades, a master-at-arms. The Navy investigated and found the accusation credible. The accused will have their day in court. If you have reason to believe they are actually innocent, fine, but you seem to be saying that they are guilty but somehow they should get a pass. I cannot see how anyone can say that the Navy could afford to ignore such a serious breach of discipline, especially one that was compounded by an organized effort to hamper the investigation.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 5:36:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Its a little more than "others have done worse" isn't it. Its personal. According to these reports the terrorist who got the fat lip was responsible for the torture, murder, burning and dismemberment of fellow countrymen. And its a fat lip - practically nothing. So what's your point?

Brain -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 5:39:14 PM)
Because Keith has balls, because he knows what he's talking about, because he understands the Constitution, because he's objective, because he's not a sell out and because he tells the truth. I'm sure I could think of more reasons if I work on it harder, like how about, because he's well educated.

slvemike4u -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 5:41:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: and a grunt can't afford to wonder whether his actions, no matter how necessary, will be second guessed, and that is the position many in the military are in today. and these ridiculous charges only make that worse. If, as some are reporting, this happened when the guy was already in custody, though, your statement doesn't apply. nonsense. Who knows what the circumstances were. I imagine one of the goals of the Court Martial,these gentlemen requested,will be to ascertain exactly what the circumstances were.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Its A Bad Time To Be A Navy Seal (11/28/2009 5:46:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CelticSubM quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy And if youve ever been in the military in time of war you know that the UCMJ has all of the weight of the Sunday funnies when youre trying to stay alive and accomplish your mission. That isnt a loss of discipline, that is taught to you the day you walk out of AIT. Your mission is what your superior officers have defined it to be. The UCMJ and the military justice system recognize the complexities, uncertainties and dangers a soldier faces on the battlefield. No commanding officer is eager to see men under his command face charges. These alleged acts did not take place on the battlefield, so that's not really relevant here, anyway. Making false statements to superior officers is a fundamental violation of military honor. An officer cannot afford to have to wonder whether he can rely on those under his command to give accurate information. Yes, especially when you're talking about an elite unit like the Navy SEALs - arguably the finest troops in the world. Unit discipline is critically important for troops of that nature.That's what I find so surprising about this whole thing, and why - quite frankly - I believe it's likely they'll be acquitted. It's very difficult for me to imagine that SEALs would have actually done this, and the fact that they're insisting on a court martial makes it sound to me as though proving that is a point of honor for them.

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