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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/1/2009 8:44:14 PM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sfortzando
I can understand where some of this may be comming from, because I feel the same when it comes to femal liberation and the sex industry. That stripper may feel powerful and in control when she has all eyes on her and is taking money from all the drunk, stupid men in the room, but the only way she makes money is if she looks sexy, and the people who decide what qualifies as sexy are men, so she's still at the mercy of male power.

Strippers are professionals at tease-and-denial.  (Actually, the real money is made in "tips" where there's, um, less denying going on, but that's another point.)  Wouldn't your logic extend to prodommes and swimsuit models?  I'm not saying I disagree with you, by the way.  But you're not really talking about dancing on a pole here; you're talking about being professionally pleasing to men.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Sfortzando)
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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/1/2009 9:11:41 PM   
Tantriqu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009



What do You think of his thoughts?  Is dominance based on looks actually "seduction" rather than "dominance" as he claims?  Can a female truly be dominant, when the average submissive male could actually overpower Her at any time if he so chose?  How do You rationalize Your "dominance" in light of that apparent contradiction? 



Troll bridge alert!

This is 'nilla thinking as well as trolling. A porn movie star's faux domination is vanilla seduction, a vanilla man or dom seduced by the appearance of a cutesy chick acting a temporary and directable fantasy.
Like most lifestyle dommes, I don't look like that or dress like that [leather g-strings itch!].
Men I have just met have knelt before me within hours. And since I know how to really, REALLY hurt a man, I don't have many of the fears of being 'overpowered' as many vanilla or sub women fear, as well as my never being interested in a switch or do-me dom who might get twitchy at any moment when he doesn't get what he wants.
It is the good sub man's need to submit, to obey, to serve, that is the obverse of the coin of Domme-ination.
No 'rationalisation', just the facts, man. Just ask the good men I've Taken!

(in reply to Rochsub2009)
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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 2:35:31 AM   
Sfortzando


Posts: 174
Joined: 1/30/2009
Status: offline 		My argument regarding strippers and female sexuality in western society is focusing on mainstream sexuality because, I feel, that is actually at the heart of the OP's original posit. Female dominance = seduction, seduction = non-dominant behavior, therefore female dominance /=  male or 'true' dominance. In general, men in western society dictate what is considered sexy. Assuming the greater majority of western women identify as heterosexual, women decorate, maintain, and alter their bodies to attract men. Fine. There is nothing wrong with that. But to assume that women decide what is sexy is a bit naive, because if women were truly calling the shots on what's hot, we wouldn't be getting billions of dollars in plastic surgery every year, wearing thongs (I don't believe anyone when they say 'no really, thongs are super compfy'.), or cramming our feet into painful shoes. If women decided what was sexy, there would be one tenth of the number of eating disorders.

As this pertains to the business of pleasing men - yes, swimsuit models certainly buy into the 'sexy is powerful' falacy. Prodommes - not so much. They may be in the business of pleasing men, but it's on their terms. If men don't like what the prodomme has to offer, he can take a hike, and because their brand of sexuality is so counter-culture, it doesn't have enough power to really affect western sexuality as a gestalt.

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that while female dominance and sexuality are intertwined and, therefore, I could understand why some might feel female dominance was really playing into male sexual dominance, female dominance is far more complex than just using sex to manipulate men. b

(in reply to RedMagic1)
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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 6:45:06 AM   
Underumam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sfortzando

My argument regarding strippers and female sexuality in western society is focusing on mainstream sexuality because, I feel, that is actually at the heart of the OP's original posit. Female dominance = seduction, seduction = non-dominant behavior, therefore female dominance /=  male or 'true' dominance. In general, men in western society dictate what is considered sexy. Assuming the greater majority of western women identify as heterosexual, women decorate, maintain, and alter their bodies to attract men. Fine. There is nothing wrong with that. But to assume that women decide what is sexy is a bit naive, because if women were truly calling the shots on what's hot, we wouldn't be getting billions of dollars in plastic surgery every year, wearing thongs (I don't believe anyone when they say 'no really, thongs are super compfy'.), or cramming our feet into painful shoes. If women decided what was sexy, there would be one tenth of the number of eating disorders.

As this pertains to the business of pleasing men - yes, swimsuit models certainly buy into the 'sexy is powerful' falacy. Prodommes - not so much. They may be in the business of pleasing men, but it's on their terms. If men don't like what the prodomme has to offer, he can take a hike, and because their brand of sexuality is so counter-culture, it doesn't have enough power to really affect western sexuality as a gestalt.

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that while female dominance and sexuality are intertwined and, therefore, I could understand why some might feel female dominance was really playing into male sexual dominance, female dominance is far more complex than just using sex to manipulate men. b



I concur. Well stated................

(in reply to Sfortzando)
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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 7:00:21 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

My argument regarding strippers and female sexuality in western society is focusing on mainstream sexuality because, I feel, that is actually at the heart of the OP's original posit. Female dominance = seduction, seduction = non-dominant behavior, therefore female dominance /= male or 'true' dominance. In general, men in western society dictate what is considered sexy.


I want to isolate this and add to this the absurdity that most fashion designers are gay men, so men who are not even sexually attracted to women have a huge part in determining what is sexy. How messed up is that?

quote:

Assuming the greater majority of western women identify as heterosexual, women decorate, maintain, and alter their bodies to attract men. Fine.

I'm bisexual so that is perhaps why I have a hard time accepting this statement. But I really maintain my body out of pride. I guess that in part attracts men. But then, that is something that is purely animal in nature as so do most animals. You should see how much time my cat allocates to grooming and he's neutered!

quote:

There is nothing wrong with that. But to assume that women decide what is sexy is a bit naive, because if women were truly calling the shots on what's hot, we wouldn't be getting billions of dollars in plastic surgery every year, wearing thongs (I don't believe anyone when they say 'no really, thongs are super compfy'.), or cramming our feet into painful shoes. If women decided what was sexy, there would be one tenth of the number of eating disorders.

I'm not sure about this point neither. Women can be highly competitive. I'm sure that the objectification of women exacerbates the situation, especially when women are pinned against one another like in beauty pageants, but it takes women willing to participate to the debate. I wouldn't say that we are all passive victims in this reality.

quote:

As this pertains to the business of pleasing men - yes, swimsuit models certainly buy into the 'sexy is powerful' falacy. Prodommes - not so much. They may be in the business of pleasing men, but it's on their terms. If men don't like what the prodomme has to offer, he can take a hike, and because their brand of sexuality is so counter-culture, it doesn't have enough power to really affect western sexuality as a gestalt.

Have you seen some of the ProDomme gear? They totally play into the sexy is powerful. But then, that's their business.
quote:

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that while female dominance and sexuality are intertwined and, therefore, I could understand why some might feel female dominance was really playing into male sexual dominance, female dominance is far more complex than just using sex to manipulate men. b

And sexy is *very* powerful. I truly don't think we should fight that or deny it. I think that it is part of who we are and we should embrace it. Do I use my sexuality as a tool to get what I want? Absolutely! And those I've been intimate with have been very grateful of this fact.

I try to however balance that out with my other attributes like my brain, especially in professional situations. But there is absolutely no doubt that sexy opens doors. I work in a male dominated industry and trust me, well groomed, elegant and charming women make it in the door much quicker. Only the intelligent, strong and compentent ones stay though...

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 11:13:21 AM   
Rochsub2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
And sexy is *very* powerful. I truly don't think we should fight that or deny it. I think that it is part of who we are and we should embrace it. Do I use my sexuality as a tool to get what I want? Absolutely! And those I've been intimate with have been very grateful of this fact.

I try to however balance that out with my other attributes like my brain, especially in professional situations. But there is absolutely no doubt that sexy opens doors.


i couldn't agree more.  Sexy is definitely powerful.  Just watch a group of guys falling all over themselves when a hot woman is around. 

Female sexiness has an inherent power that few male attributes match.  If you are ever in a crowed restaurant, watch what happens if a handsome man enters the room.  A few women may notice him, but for the most part, nobody pays any attention.  Same thing happens if a very muscular man enters the room.  A few women may take note, but not much else happens.  Likewise, if a very rich man enters a room, nothing happens (unless he is a recognizable celebrity like Donald Trump or Tiger Woods).

Contrarily, if a very beautiful woman enters the room, ALL EYES ARE ON HER.  Both male AND female.  That ability to bring an entire room to attention without saying a word is definitely a type of power.  Whether she knows how to wield that power is another story.  But beauty definitely has it's own unique type of power.  A power that men cannot emulate.

It's not better or worst than other types of power.  It's simply different.  But it is definitely a form of power and dominance.

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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 11:54:20 AM   
blackpearl81


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sfortzando



quote:

ORIGINAL: blackpearl81

Given the way I've seen some "real life" Dommes act, I'm starting to question it myself, tbh.
My personal favorite, are the "do as i say, not as I do" types.


That's not gender-specific behavior, though. That's hypocracy, and I pray for your continued attatchment to your testicles that you are not implying women are, by nature, hypocrites. I see Dommes, Doms, and male and female subs alike play 'do as I say, not as I do' games all the time. What I fail to see is your point.



Well, you probably failed to see my point because I didn't give a specific example. At the risk of possibly outting someone who I considered to be a close friend, I decided to not give a specific example at the time. However, for the sake of clarification, I will.

I'm not "implying" that *women* are hypocrites. What I am implying is that I've seen examples where one uses their....power? as the Dom/me to ACT like a hypocrite, and thus, makes me question "true" dominance.

Like.... when two people are closer than friends, but not close enough to have a fulfilling dynamic, then one (the Domme, in this case) goes off and "finds" another sub to engage with.. god forbid the sub decides that - while he enjoys her company - he doesn't see the relationship going any further than friends, (lets say, because of tastes in kink), and decides to find someone more fulfilling.


The irony here is, is that she has told me on more than one occasion that submissives =/= doormats, and they have just as much right to be happy within a dynamic as the Dominant does.

When I asked her why was it ok for her to find someone else, but not ok for me to, I was greeted with the reply:

"I don't have to explain myself to you"

Yet, when the sub realizes that he would NOT be happy with the dynamic in its current form, (again - mainly due to tastes in kink) and decides to "move on" (so to speak), all of a sudden the sub is the scumbag cocksucking asshole, and she "doesn't have to explain herself to me"

Irony & hypocrisy in its finest form.
Go figure.

< Message edited by blackpearl81 -- 12/2/2009 11:58:58 AM >

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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 12:39:29 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sfortzando

But to assume that women decide what is sexy is a bit naive, because if women were truly calling the shots on what's hot, we wouldn't be getting billions of dollars in plastic surgery every year, wearing thongs (I don't believe anyone when they say 'no really, thongs are super compfy'.), or cramming our feet into painful shoes. If women decided what was sexy, there would be one tenth of the number of eating disorders.


I completely disagree with you. I think women would still do those because they'd want to outdo the other women. I think that is a huge part of why women do it now. And for the record, yes a thong can be comfy. I didn't used to believe it either. It depends on your body size and what kind of thong you get.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Sfortzando)
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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 12:53:23 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
And sexy is *very* powerful. I truly don't think we should fight that or deny it. I think that it is part of who we are and we should embrace it. Do I use my sexuality as a tool to get what I want? Absolutely! And those I've been intimate with have been very grateful of this fact.

I try to however balance that out with my other attributes like my brain, especially in professional situations. But there is absolutely no doubt that sexy opens doors.


i couldn't agree more.  Sexy is definitely powerful.  Just watch a group of guys falling all over themselves when a hot woman is around. 

Female sexiness has an inherent power that few male attributes match.  If you are ever in a crowed restaurant, watch what happens if a handsome man enters the room.  A few women may notice him, but for the most part, nobody pays any attention.  Same thing happens if a very muscular man enters the room.  A few women may take note, but not much else happens.  Likewise, if a very rich man enters a room, nothing happens (unless he is a recognizable celebrity like Donald Trump or Tiger Woods).

Contrarily, if a very beautiful woman enters the room, ALL EYES ARE ON HER.  Both male AND female.  That ability to bring an entire room to attention without saying a word is definitely a type of power.  Whether she knows how to wield that power is another story.  But beauty definitely has it's own unique type of power.  A power that men cannot emulate.

It's not better or worst than other types of power.  It's simply different.  But it is definitely a form of power and dominance.



Almost. There is one issue with what you said. Beauty and sexy are not necessarily synonymous. Often, they co-exist, but they are different. Case in point, a 10 year girl can be beautiful, but she has not yet discovered sexy. Sexy is something that is learned.

Oh and I've seen certain men make a lot of heads turn. My girlfriends and I call it the Mr. Big factor. They make for very difficult prey, but once captured, totally yummy!

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 1:14:05 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sfortzando

But to assume that women decide what is sexy is a bit naive, because if women were truly calling the shots on what's hot, we wouldn't be getting billions of dollars in plastic surgery every year, wearing thongs (I don't believe anyone when they say 'no really, thongs are super compfy'.), or cramming our feet into painful shoes. If women decided what was sexy, there would be one tenth of the number of eating disorders.


I completely disagree with you. I think women would still do those because they'd want to outdo the other women. I think that is a huge part of why women do it now. And for the record, yes a thong can be comfy. I didn't used to believe it either. It depends on your body size and what kind of thong you get.


The way I look at it is that the link between male control and women's values is no longer always a direct link.  Women may want to get slim to attract men, but the aim to get ultra-slim is an example of (some) women 'forgetting what the original point was' and going off to create their own standard, with men now largely irrelevant.  It's been shown repeatedly that men don't prefer ultra-skinny female figures.  The fashion-model look isn't the male ideal.  (Most men can't even name more than a few supermodels.)  But, it's as though, for women who are aiming for ultra-thin-ness, men's opinion on this no longer matters.  The way I've heard it put is that this is a case of women 'introjecting patriarchal values but taking them one step further'.

Well, whatever.  But I'd lay big odds on this:  that even if all the men on the planet were wiped out, women would still wear terrible shoes that are no good for their feet. 

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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 3:40:53 PM   
Sfortzando


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sfortzando

But to assume that women decide what is sexy is a bit naive, because if women were truly calling the shots on what's hot, we wouldn't be getting billions of dollars in plastic surgery every year, wearing thongs (I don't believe anyone when they say 'no really, thongs are super compfy'.), or cramming our feet into painful shoes. If women decided what was sexy, there would be one tenth of the number of eating disorders.


I completely disagree with you. I think women would still do those because they'd want to outdo the other women. I think that is a huge part of why women do it now. And for the record, yes a thong can be comfy. I didn't used to believe it either. It depends on your body size and what kind of thong you get.


Yeah, but why are they competing with eachother? To attract men.

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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 3:55:09 PM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline 		And I always thought that the world revolved around pussy..Go figure..lol. Many guys spend their days working out, plucking nose/ear hairs, shaving, wearing deodorant/cologne, buying fancy cars, wearing expensive clothes, trying to make a name, being good in sports, being known for success and social position, being a good lover, being funny, and on and on and on and on.....ALL OF IT TO ATTRACT A WOMAN!!!  My God- we were duped! lol.

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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 4:01:04 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
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Status: offline 		Duped? Are you looking for a return on your... um... investments? lol

All that aside... I don't believe men buy car's to attract women! lol

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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 4:14:26 PM   
Underumam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Duped? Are you looking for a return on your... um... investments? lol

All that aside... I don't believe men buy car's to attract women! lol


lol. I heard Your words between Your words.....

And, yes of course, men DO try to impress the more shallow females with fancy cars/clothes etc..lol.

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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 4:50:51 PM   
onlyme32111


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sfortzando

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sfortzando

But to assume that women decide what is sexy is a bit naive, because if women were truly calling the shots on what's hot, we wouldn't be getting billions of dollars in plastic surgery every year, wearing thongs (I don't believe anyone when they say 'no really, thongs are super compfy'.), or cramming our feet into painful shoes. If women decided what was sexy, there would be one tenth of the number of eating disorders.


I completely disagree with you. I think women would still do those because they'd want to outdo the other women. I think that is a huge part of why women do it now. And for the record, yes a thong can be comfy. I didn't used to believe it either. It depends on your body size and what kind of thong you get.


Yeah, but why are they competing with eachother? To attract men.



Being a lesbian too, I wonder if you can relate to this yourself.

It's not only for men that women compete. I've been to lesbian clubs where the women get all dressed up for the hunt. Believe me you can see the competition clear as day. And they're certainly not competing for men. I think this kind of competition here is to attract a mate, in general, whether or not it is for a male or female depending on your sexuality.

Oddly, sometimes it's not done to attract anyone, but rather to flaunt your own stuff. Don't you remember when we used to have sleep overs with just the girls. I remember how we used to do our make=up and hair styles, trying to out-do one another. There were no boys around. Just the girls.

Lesbians compete, like hetero women. I'm going to bet gay men compete for one another like hetero men compete for women.

(in reply to Sfortzando)
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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 7:12:37 PM   
Venatrix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

If you are ever in a crowed restaurant, watch what happens if a handsome man enters the room.  A few women may notice him, but for the most part, nobody pays any attention.  Same thing happens if a very muscular man enters the room.  A few women may take note, but not much else happens.  Likewise, if a very rich man enters a room, nothing happens (unless he is a recognizable celebrity like Donald Trump or Tiger Woods).



I think you're misreading this scenario.  It's not that women don't notice handsome men or that we don't get all hot for them, it's just that most women consider the jaw-dropping stare that men give attractive women to be rude and undignified.  So, a woman, as a rule, will notice the handsome man, glance away and act like the man in question is of no account, but she might be thinking, yeah, I'd do him in a heartbeat.  The vast majority of women, even the good-looking ones, think that the way men slobber over attractive women is rather pathetic. 

Edited to add:  When I lived in Miami, Donald Trump was dining with Marla Maples at the same restaurant I was.  I gave them the most cursory of glances, then carried on with my evening as if they weren't there.  It would have been gauche to do anything else. 

< Message edited by Venatrix -- 12/2/2009 7:14:45 PM >

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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 7:29:17 PM   
Wickad


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I have come across the idea that women's power comes from their ability to be sexually alluring to men (by alluring I don't mean just 'pretty' but exotic and enticing). This idea has been around for thousands of years and shows up in many books about Female Dominance.

I, personally, reject this definition of a woman's source of Dominance.

If a woman is basing her power on external sources (ie: male perceptions) then her power can be stripped by those external sources. By this I mean that if a woman ceases to conform to what the external perceptions deem as 'attractive' then she loses her ability to control. This is not power based on who she is but rather on how she fits into pre-designed ideals.

I am a powerful woman, not because men, or even other women, think I am, but rather because I choose to be. My sense of power exists within me and can never be taken away by another person. Those women who rely on others to define their power (as Elise Sutton and her ilk would suggest) are simply buying into the illusion of power.

That being said, that illusion and all it's perks (yes, there are perks ie:acceptance, lots of attention, etc) are exactly what some women want and I would never decide that they are 'wrong' for wanting those things. However, it is not what I am looking for and it seems it is not what a great many women on this site are seeking either.

It strikes me that the OP's question about the reality of Female Dominance is really based on his own upbringing and bias. Women that he perceives of as being Dominant are in fact adhering to this illusion of dominance. He has perhaps overlooked the 'real' Dominant woman as we do not conform to the role that he would have us cast ourselves in (ie: latex wearing, size 5, whip in hand, etc).

Wickad

(in reply to onlyme32111)
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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 7:31:47 PM   
GoddessImaginos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad

(fast reply)

I have come across the idea that women's power comes from their ability to be sexually alluring to men (by alluring I don't mean just 'pretty' but exotic and enticing). This idea has been around for thousands of years and shows up in many books about Female Dominance.

I, personally, reject this definition of a woman's source of Dominance.

If a woman is basing her power on external sources (ie: male perceptions) then her power can be stripped by those external sources. By this I mean that if a woman ceases to conform to what the external perceptions deem as 'attractive' then she loses her ability to control. This is not power based on who she is but rather on how she fits into pre-designed ideals.

I am a powerful woman, not because men, or even other women, think I am, but rather because I choose to be. My sense of power exists within me and can never be taken away by another person. Those women who rely on others to define their power (as Elise Sutton and her ilk would suggest) are simply buying into the illusion of power.

That being said, that illusion and all it's perks (yes, there are perks ie:acceptance, lots of attention, etc) are exactly what some women want and I would never decide that they are 'wrong' for wanting those things. However, it is not what I am looking for and it seems it is not what a great many women on this site are seeking either.

It strikes me that the OP's question about the reality of Female Dominance is really based on his own upbringing and bias. Women that he perceives of as being Dominant are in fact adhering to this illusion of dominance. He has perhaps overlooked the 'real' Dominant woman as we do not conform to the role that he would have us cast ourselves in (ie: latex wearing, size 5, whip in hand, etc).

Wickad




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RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 8:18:50 PM   
Rochsub2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix
I think you're misreading this scenario.  It's not that women don't notice handsome men or that we don't get all hot for them, it's just that most women consider the jaw-dropping stare that men give attractive women to be rude and undignified.  So, a woman, as a rule, will notice the handsome man, glance away and act like the man in question is of no account, but she might be thinking, yeah, I'd do him in a heartbeat.  The vast majority of women, even the good-looking ones, think that the way men slobber over attractive women is rather pathetic. 


Actually, i understand that.  i've seen many women check out guys.  My actual point was that those same handsome men don't even register to other (non-gay) men.  But attractive women draw the attention of both men and women.

(in reply to Venatrix)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Is female dominance real? - 12/2/2009 8:30:02 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Almost. There is one issue with what you said. Beauty and sexy are not necessarily synonymous. Often, they co-exist, but they are different.


i completely agree.  A woman doesn't need to be a stunning beauty to be incredibly sexy.

The most dominant and sexy woman that i've ever served was at best a 6 on a scale of 1-10 (in my opinion).  Yet She was one of the sexiest women that i've ever come across.  Her confidence was unbreakable.  Her personality was naturally controlling and forceful.  And Her understanding of the mental aspect of domination was unparalleled.  Everything about Her, from the way She modulated Her voice, to the way She made or didn't make eye contact, to the way She made subtle physical contact was a symphony of sexuality and dominance.  Despite not being a stunning beauty, She is the Domme who still haunts my dreams almost 8 years later.  i know that i will NEVER forget Her.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 80
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