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RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 9:59:43 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
So then you reserve the right to call it a religion and go down the suggested route, if all else fails?
E[\quote]
NO - I call it a religion now; based upon the belief it requires to follow its dogma faithfully.

Me going down routes? I don't think that's possible other than to continually point out how more faith than science is being used to influence laws and regulations by agenda based groups and individuals.

Can the tactic be used by someone to fight those laws a religious basis? Sure - and I'm positive if there was funding there would be line up of lawyers willing to make a argument and lawsuit.

"All else fails"? I don't know what that means. Right now we are seeing an 'all else fails' coming from the religion. Proof of their own dogma not standing up to observed results has taken an "all else fails" approach by saying - "ignore that". Any other 'science' that would represent they "tossed away" the original data would be laughed at. I think somerwhere they still have the apple that fell on Isaac Newton's head.

Now it seems to be moving on to establish other dogma like CO2. I'm sure their will be more 'human influenced trends', less hard to observe let alone trend back for any scientifically valid period of time.

I've always taken a very simplistic approach to the issue. When the 'global warmers' can plug in prior periods of documented heating/cooling even levels of CO2 in the atmosphere; into their model ad point to predicting the results that occurred - I'll start showing up to church.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 10:44:10 AM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


This is the US - any lawyer could challenge any global warming law on religious grounds. Perhaps the tactic wasn't used yet because, until recently, there was no internal memo smoking gun pointing to fraud science. Science is all about challenging reported 'facts'. Religion is all about keeping 'facts' unchallenged.

In just about every possible way, global warming, climate change, ice age, CO2 increasing; whatever banner they've put behind the collection plate; resembles religion more than science. Worst case, and as countries adopt and sanction the religion as they did Catholicism, making it the 'Official Religion of ________'; perhaps in the US its policies will be challenged on Constitutional lines.


Usually, while I disagree with you, your opinions seem to be based on some reasonable interpretation of the facts. In this one, you seem to be lost in your own religious mania. The smoking gun you speak of is, at best, a case of a limited number of scientists practicing bad science. It is certainly enough for me to want a re-examination of the matter and there are a number of questions I want answers. However, the leap to discrediting these particular scientists and all the scientists who have worked on the matter is an overlong one.

It seems that you're anti-man made climate change attitude is far more religious than the pro side. You have made your decision, and anything can and will be used to back your faith.



(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 11:16:30 AM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Don't you love the moving target of this religion?
However it was start of a whole new industry - the 'Green Movement' with a messiah to lead them - Al Gore.


Well, ok- no one on these boards is a climate scientist; so no one really has much to say other than "I read it on teh intertubes".
The debate over global warming is pretty much a case of everyone becoming jailhouse lawyers, posting snippets of data from their favorite source, but no one really having authority to make a definite case.
But having said that- how do we as citizens make a decision about policy?

Lets look at what we do know:
The industrial processes by which we extract resources, manufacture them, use them, and dispose of them are unsustainable.
Meaning that if we don't change them, within our lifetimes, they will be depleted, and our earth air and water will be fouled.

Is this a debatable point for anyone?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 11:25:01 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I have to give the climate change deniers credit for really doing their darndest to maintain the status quo and unfortunately because of greed they are going to destroy the planet if somebody doesn’t stop them; like Exxon didn’t make enough money last year.

So I still have my faith in Al Gore and David Suzuki. I’m going to wait and see what they say about all this e-mail crap before I make up my mind about anything.

Study: Slowdown in warming last year not permanent

Cooler temperatures in North America last year do not mean global warming is easing, government and academic scientists said Friday.

Their report comes just days before President Barack Obama heads to Copenhagen, Denmark, to speak at a United Nations conference on climate change.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091204/ap_on_go_ot/us_climate2008

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 12:02:14 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Unfortunately because of General Motors, who killed the electric car about 30 years ago, I have had to buy their air polluting cancerous planet destroying products. They shouldn’t have given the bastards a dime and they should have let them go bankrupt and started a new automobile company run by Ralph Nader.

When I say bastards I mean the management. What was the bonus the last president of GM got? I think it was about 10 or 12 million; like that moron was worth $10 million. Other than nothing what else did he do.?

Clean burning renewable energy is here with hydrogen fuel cell solar combination. Please read the original blog post in which this appeared for the full context: http://www.markjoyner.name/... A...

Man Runs Car on Pure Water and Sun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94VHhQW6b4Q&feature=rec-HM-r2

I want one of these This is my idea of a real car: I think it’s faster than a Porsche or Corvette and it doesn’t pollute or cause any environmental problems.

Tesla

http://www.teslamotors.com/






quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Brain, have you ever sold used cars before?


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 12:06:50 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So then you reserve the right to call it a religion and go down the suggested route, if all else fails?

E


It is actually now a religion.  Not science.   To those who decry pollution we have plenty of existing laws to deal with that. I resent being thought of as a schill for big oil.   I READ THE TREATY!   Google it. It can be located.  Read it for yourself.  Nearly every part of our life is about to have a 20% tax on it.  It is onerous.    All it does is monetize pollution.  It does not stop it. Enron came up with the scheme.  Goodman saches stands to make billions. 

Congress really ought to make less laws not more.  Get rid of many of them.

The scheme is nothing but a tax.  Not a real plan.   Such a tax takes food off of my table.  and yours.   Food production is a pollution event.  and will be TAXED.  As will energy and everything you need to LIVE.  Carbon is life.

To the globalists who want this- this is EUGENICS!!!

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 12:21:29 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		If you don't want to pay taxes then you should be supporting hydrogen and electric vehicle's. Why do you want to pay expensive amounts of money for gasoline? Why wouldn't you want to drive an electric car or hydrogen vehicle that's less expensive and doesn't pollute the environment and destroy the planet. In the long run they're going to bring the cost of these new cars down and it will be cheaper and safer/less pollution for all of us.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 12:23:08 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Wow pa.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

It is actually now a religion.  Not science.   To those who decry pollution we have plenty of existing laws to deal with that. I resent being thought of as a schill for big oil.   I READ THE TREATY!   Google it. It can be located.  Read it for yourself.  Nearly every part of our life is about to have a 20% tax on it.  It is onerous.    All it does is monetize pollution.  It does not stop it. Enron came up with the scheme.  Goodman saches stands to make billions. 

Congress really ought to make less laws not more.  Get rid of many of them.

The scheme is nothing but a tax.  Not a real plan.   Such a tax takes food off of my table.  and yours.   Food production is a pollution event.  and will be TAXED.  As will energy and everything you need to LIVE.  Carbon is life.

To the globalists who want this- this is EUGENICS!!!



_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 1:56:35 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		It’s remarkable how stupid they think we are that they can get away with this crap effort trying to discredit legitimate science. It’s not so easy naysayers, in fact I put it to you that it will be impossible to discredit legitimate science. To do that you’re going to have to take over the universities and fat chance that’s gonna happen.

Lies and the Lying Lies about Science, and Also, the Lies - Firedoglake


It should be bizarre, but is in fact grimly typical, how the whole phony “climate-gate-scandal” has played out so far. Hundreds of emails between climate scientists were hacked — stolen — from servers at East Anglia University. The stolen materials were then misrepresented, distorted, and lied about, and the scientists involved abused, insulted, and accused of everything from deliberate fraud to acting as the willing dupes of the shadowy liberal-fascist “global warming industry.”

http://firedoglake.com/2009/12/06/lies-and-the-lying-lies-about-science-and-also-the-lies/


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 9:17:50 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I'm not surprised climate change deniers haven't responded to the posts I made exposing this phony campaign to discredit legitimate science. I'm really amazed how stupid some of you guys think people are that we’re going to roll over and allow you to get away with these ridiculous lies without being challenged; I don't think so! The truth will prevail that global warming is unquestionably being caused by mankind. And I'm glad the British scientist called the American wingnut an asshole, because he was. Glory glory hallelujah, the truth goes marching on!

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 9:26:05 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I'm not surprised climate change deniers haven't responded



Maybe you should consider getting one of those sandwich boards that says "The end is near!  Repent!" 



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 9:27:42 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I'm not surprised climate change deniers haven't responded to the posts I made exposing this phony campaign to discredit legitimate science.

I'm not surprised either. I mean seriously, why would anyone bother?

K.

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 9:43:10 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Just to clarify, when you say' why bother' in what way do you mean?

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 9:54:22 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe you should get a university degree, I recommend a bachelor of science, and find out what real science is so you can find a way to talk with intelligence instead of a class clown.



(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 10:05:00 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Maybe you should get a university degree, I recommend a bachelor of science, and find out what real science is so you can find a way to talk with intelligence instead of a class clown.



Shee-it, Brian, that almost sorta sounded like a personal attack.  My science is in geology.  Climate change is a constant on this planet.  Maybe you can tell me what a data set of (one) is worth, though?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/6/2009 10:52:23 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Just to clarify, when you say' why bother' in what way do you mean?

Let me count the ways....

The Genetic Fallacy
The genetic fallacy is committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit.

Additionally, to claim that a proposition must be true on the basis of it being widely affirmed by people who are judged to be authorities is doubly fallacious.

Appeal to Authority
An appeal to authority is an argument from the fact that a person judged to be an authority affirms a proposition to the claim that the proposition is true.

Appeal to Popularity
Appeals to popularity suggest that an idea must be true simply because it is widely held.

Will that hold you for a while?

K.

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/7/2009 7:15:29 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

It’s remarkable how stupid they think we are that they can get away with this crap effort trying to discredit legitimate science


Don't be so hard on the religious. I pity them still clinging to the belief that this whole climate change thing was a get rich quick scheme based on greed instead of scientific, verifiable results.

You know how it is - one day you believe Santa Claus left all those presents under the tree; the next day you hear your parents complaining about how much your new bike cost. It's a part of growing up.

You'll appreciate it when you start think, challenge and not just belief what's being preached from a pulpit - by your school teachers, or special interests.

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/7/2009 7:36:52 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So then you reserve the right to call it a religion and go down the suggested route, if all else fails?

E

Well, dismissing a scientific theory that can't be proven in a lab practical as a matter of religious blind faith did very well in getting equal time for creationism in public school science classes, so perhaps they feel that the same trick's going to work just as well here? Given the ideological split you get in American politics, there's probably quite an overlap between people who want to teach the Bible as science and those who feel that global warming is a UN conspiracy to make the 'States look bad.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/7/2009 8:43:02 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Well, dismissing a scientific theory that can't be proven in a lab practical as a matter of religious blind faith did very well in getting equal time for creationism in public school science classes, so perhaps they feel that the same trick's going to work just as well here?


You have it in the correct perspective and accurate comparison - BOTH should be laughed and ridiculed on the face of their own absurdity where lies are portrayed as 'science'; and in the refusal to consider any opinion, or apparently their own conflicting data in the case of the 'warmers', that doesn't support their religion's dogma.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a s... - 12/7/2009 9:26:39 AM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It’s remarkable how stupid they think we are that they can get away with this crap effort trying to discredit legitimate science. It’s not so easy naysayers, in fact I put it to you that it will be impossible to discredit legitimate science. To do that you’re going to have to take over the universities and fat chance that’s gonna happen.

Lies and the Lying Lies about Science, and Also, the Lies - Firedoglake


It should be bizarre, but is in fact grimly typical, how the whole phony “climate-gate-scandal” has played out so far. Hundreds of emails between climate scientists were hacked — stolen — from servers at East Anglia University. The stolen materials were then misrepresented, distorted, and lied about, and the scientists involved abused, insulted, and accused of everything from deliberate fraud to acting as the willing dupes of the shadowy liberal-fascist “global warming industry.”

http://firedoglake.com/2009/12/06/lies-and-the-lying-lies-about-science-and-also-the-lies/




Brain, you have to realize that the CM board does not represent worldly, even US, opinion. About 4 people believe in Climate Gate, and each has a CM account, and it's always the same 4 people making immature remarks and then high-fiving each other. Then someone like yourself, naive, open-minded, comes along asking for sources, scientific sources (i.e., for the love of God, no more Spectator articles), and these sources never, ever, ever materialize. It's like arguing with gorillas throwing shit. It's fun to a point, if you're wearing a raincoat and a face mask, but ultimately it's not especially fulfilling.

One credited climatologist who can disprove evidence of global warming? C'mon, guys, there has got to be at least one.

Meanwhile 100s of thousands of people are demonstrating throughout Europe. Today's www.democracynow.org spends the hour on the subject, live from Copenhagen.


(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 40
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