RE: Defended my home

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WyldHrt -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 4:44:34 PM)
quote: I won't fault Orion for risking his life when he chose to go mano a mano with the intruder. I do fault him for risking his wife and child, father and handicapped mother's lives. He was upstairs, the intruder was downstairs. He could much more safely have called told his wife to call 911, while he locked the basement door. And stood back watching the door in case the intruder managed to break it down. His bedroom is in the basement, Des. He was not upstairs.

Arpig -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 4:47:56 PM)
quote: Edited to add never mind, you are in Canada Arpig, quite different than here in the states. Not really, we have a gun problem here as well. Its really no problem to acquire an illegal gun here, they ship them up from the US by the trunkload (well actually the boatload, Lake of the Woods and the Thousand Islands are the main transit routes...just the same as we ship you the Pot & hash...a loverly 2-way street). When I was going through my divorce I was twice offered an illegal untraceable gun, just in case I wanted to settle out of court so to speak, and mine was not a particularly nasty break-up. We don't shoot people as often up here simply because less people (both criminal & law-abiding) have guns. that simple detail seems to escape people though. Canada has less guns and less people (per capita) get shot, Japan has even less guns and even less people (per capita) get shot..there is a direct correlation between the number of guns and the number of people shot. The fact that we have less of a problem with gun violence than the US is in fact the whole point....stricter gun laws leads (on a direct proportional basis) to less gun violence...PERIOD. Less guns = less people shot.

WyldHrt -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 4:48:25 PM)
quote: however if mere possession of a gun were made a felony with a hefty minimum sentence you wouldn't have every punk-ass kid carrying guns...it works in most countries The mere possession of cocaine, crack, and/ or heroin is a felony with a hefty minimum sentence in most places. Guess where you find those things? In the hands of punk ass kids.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 4:48:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig The man who followed my advice would have called the police immediately, and then made certain his family was defended, rather than go sneaking around with a loaded gun playing at being a hero. he's damned lucky he didn't get shot and then where would the family have been. Calling the police immediately would have made no difference at all, because it was all over long before they got there. And making sure his family was defended was exactly what he was doing by investigating the source of the noise in his house. quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig there are 2 points at issue here. »1: Guns period. if guns were removed from the scenario it would be far less dangerous. I already know the arguements against my position on guns, however if mere possession of a gun were made a felony with a hefty minimum sentence you wouldn't have every punk-ass kid carrying guns...it works in most countries Committing a burglary while carrying a firearm is already a felony with a hefty sentence in the state of Georgia, but that doesn't seem to have worked very well in this situation. quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig »2: His actions. I find them irresponsible. he made no effort to secure the safety of his family before he went off hunting the guy down, If it had of been some psychopath rather than a dumb teen he likely would be dead right now, Before you expand the parameters of the situation beyond all recognition to try prove your point kindly think through the ramifications of said expansion. A raging psychopath would have killed him in his bed well before rummaging through the stuff in the storeroom. That's not an accurate summary of what he did. He made it quite clear that he did not go "hunting" anyone, he heard a noise and went to investigate what it was. That is not teh same thing. By the time he discovered what it was, he was face to face with the burglar, and he had only one viable option - contain the situation right where it was. He had family members sleeping all over the house, both upstairs and downstairs. Running around all over the dwelling gathering up family members would have exposed him and them to a lot more risk than controlling the burglar right where he found them. Your suggestion is neither practical or wise.

Arpig -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 4:52:13 PM)
quote: How would you do that? Well for starters just make all guns illegal. make any crime that involves a gun carry a life sentence. hell I don't know, Its been done, though I am pretty sure i wouldn't like the methods used to achieve it. Push comes to shove, while I am adamantly opposed to gun ownership, I cannot conceive of any even vaguely effective method of getting rid of the suckers I would approve of. Perhaps simply ban all sales & all sales of ammo...no bullets and a gun is just a clumsy cudgel.

Arpig -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 4:53:19 PM)
quote: Well how about we just stop manufacturing the fucking things.....you know all journeys start with a simple step! good plan

kdsub -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 4:53:50 PM)
As long as guns are legal...and they are kept properly...remember he took off the trigger guard...then he should be able to protect himself and family as a last resort. It is not perfect or even desirable in all cases but lawful…BUT should be the last resort not the first. I have been trying to encourage alternate ways to handle these situations and being called a stupid MF for it. Tell me how many times have you seen on television trained police officers in gun battles at ranges less then 10 feet…shooting 8 rounds or more and every one missing? This is the norm not the unusual exception. Now where do those rounds go? In a house they could kill your child in the crib through a wall or your wife or son. Any gunfire is more likely to kill an innocent then the burglar. Police officers are truly trained in weapons not like you and me… that think we are… and still bystanders are killed. I am removing this completely from Orion because none of the above happened. But just read the news every day to see how unlucky other families have been in this circumstance. Almost every day in my hometown a round sent though a thin wall kills some child… Or a Grandmother shot in the head by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now when there are no choices and you have a weapon to protect yourself with I’m all for using it. BUT if I could run...or hide…or call the police I think we should rather than take a chance of hurting innocents. Butch

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 4:54:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I won't fault Orion for risking his life when he chose to go mano a mano with the intruder. I do fault him for risking his wife and child, father and handicapped mother's lives. He was upstairs, the intruder was downstairs. He could much more safely have called told his wife to call 911, while he locked the basement door. And stood back watching the door in case the intruder managed to break it down. No, he and his girl were sleeping downstairs in the room next to the storage room, and his 4-year old son was in the room across the hall. He had no place to retreat without abandoning at least one family member.

BKSir -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 5:11:37 PM)
Although I do agree with you most often Arpig, and even on this, I reiterate what I said in another, similar thread. I have firearms, and they are nothing short of tools. A hammer will make someone just as dead as a firearm. It's truly how it's used. That being said, I'm all for the removal of such things, and as soon as Joe Mugger, or John Burgler, or Jimmy Gangster is standing right there in the line next to me, I'll be more than happy to hand them over. I wish, as much as you, that I had an answer for this problem, but, even in places where they're banned, there are still shootings, etc. So bans, although decreasing the number of occurrences, are not entirely effective either. I see this kind of plan as blaming the tools, not the carpenter for the crooked shelves. It is also, I believe, a sociological standpoint that is causing this kind of disagreement. Of course there is violence in Canada, but, as a whole, your country is like Disneyland compared to the US. The states are overly violent, and that is a societal problem. Falling back onto the carpenter theory there. The only way to remedy that is to train the carpenters better, not buy them different tools. Teach people that robbing and mugging and all of that are bad things. Not glorify it like we do far far too much stateside. Either way, there is no overnight solution to it. Sad, but that's just how it is. It will take time and effort by every last person to change things like this. I relish the idea of a day where I no longer feel the need to have a sidearm to protect myself and those around me, and I live in a very nice neighbourhood. But, there is still the chance that a couple bashers will come into the house swinging bats or some such thing (again, will make one just as dead as a firearm, only more brutally). I don't wish to be the one to stand there saying "Please don't do this, because it's wrong.", while we wait for the police who will say "Oh, just a gay bashing, no need to hurry.", and have no way of defending me and mine. I don't think the intruder/assailant will really care much about my opinion of what is right or wrong. And no, that's not an exaggeration. In the states, the youth are taught that such things are perfectly fine, not just by the mass media (music, television, movies), but by the legal system itself. Quite literally. One day, I do hope beyond hope, that we have a utopian society, or at least one close enough to it, that this discussion will be entirely academic and moot. But alas, that day is not today. And tomorrow isn't looking too hot either.

Kirata -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 5:12:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig there is a direct correlation between the number of guns and the number of people shot. If that's all you care about, fine. I prefer a safe society. Poll finds crime still Canada's top concern Half of urban Canadians say they are very concerned about drugs in their communities and almost as many fear guns, gangs, and random shootings -- and less than one quarter strongly feel that they are safe walking alone in their neighbourhood after dark. Fewer people shot does not necessarily make for one. K.

InvisibleBlack -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 5:22:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I won't fault Orion for risking his life when he chose to go mano a mano with the intruder. I do fault him for risking his wife and child, father and handicapped mother's lives. He was upstairs, the intruder was downstairs. He could much more safely have called told his wife to call 911, while he locked the basement door. And stood back watching the door in case the intruder managed to break it down. No, he and his girl were sleeping downstairs in the room next to the storage room, and his 4-year old son was in the room across the hall. He had no place to retreat without abandoning at least one family member. I find it kind of bizarre to see this change into a tactical debate over what actions were and were not proper and which were and were not morally proper. Two things: 1) If I'm sitting in HQ, I try not to question the choices of the man in the field unless they're truly egregious. Assuming I know that he's reasonably intelligent and competent, he's there on the scene and I am not. Nothing Orion did was illegal or inappropriate and none of the people he was responsible for were injured or ever in danger. Second-guessing his actions in an attempt to develop a better plan of action is childish. Unless someone happens to be in Orion's house with their relatives and a gun at night and hears a strange noise, they're not really in a position to determine if a more optimal scenario could be arranged. 2) The man confronted an armed intruder in his home and prevented a felony. There is nothing wrong with that. I defy you to try and sell the concept to any society on the planet that if criminals break into your home your only possible response is to huddle up in a room somewhere and call for help. From my end, any death - any death is a senseless tragedy. Every human life is precious. Every one. We don't live in a world where there are no risks nor in one where risk and danger can be eliminated - so senseless tragedies happen every day. There is no miracle trick to avoid that. Similarly, stuff is stuff. If you gave me a choice between, say, a room's worth of home furnishings or a man's life - the man's life is far more important. However, we're not talking some sort of mercantile exchange. I view my right to feel safe and secure in my home as more important than a criminal's "right" to feel safe and secure in breaking into my home or his "right" to commit crimes. Likewise, I view my right to work hard, earn and provide for me and mine as trumping anyone's "right" to take things from others by force. If you pick up a gun and break into someone's home at night - you are pretty much flat out conceding that you are going to use deadly force to get what you want from them. You've already made the choice to murder someone if you have to and you've put yourself in the position where you may well have to. At that point, pretty much anything that happens to you is your own fault. [Edited for clarity.]

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 5:51:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack If you pick up a gun and break into someone's home at night - you are pretty much flat out conceding that you are going to use deadly force to get what you want from them. You've already made the choice to murder someone if you have to and you've put yourself in the position where you may well have to. There is this long tradition of criminals using the threat of violence, probably not every criminal is prepared to take a life that is an oversimplification of human nature. People have all kinds of deluded justifications for the things they do, they carry guns 'only to scare people' for example. I agree with most of what you said although what occurred between two people without any other witnesses is unable to be determined as absolute fact. To avoid the whole he said he said debate doesn't this kind of justice system encourage people to take lives to avoid complaints after the fact or the need to reconcile two different stories? If you was to take the pragmatic view you'd say 'if he survives then he may make life difficult, can I avoid litigation costs? Sure my side of the events is true but do I know for sure people will believe me? How long will this drag on if it's his lies against my truth? This is the problem I've always had with this 'you invaded my house if you die so be it' point of view.

StrangerThan -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 5:57:13 PM)
quote: When I was twenty one, the brother of a good friend was playing with his twin brother and a boy who had been their best friend since they were toddlers. The friend was showing them his father's handgun. He was sure that it was unloaded. He was just playing around. He shot one of the twins who died on the spot. When I think of this I don't much care if the owner of the gun had a license or twenty licenses. I only know that if he hadn't had a gun he did not take proper care off, three lives wouldn't have been destroyed. I'm not here to argue with you spinner, just interject another side to this debate. In the snippet above, the secondary issue is that the neither of the boys seemed to have been taught how to handle weapons. It is a huge point with me because something of the same thing occurred to me. Except i had been taught to handle them and because of it, no lives were destroyed. I was about 8 at the time, and, I firmly believe that if you're going to keep weapons in the house, then every damned person in that house should know how to handle them, when to handle them, and when not to. Neither of my daughters wanted to. I made them. I took them out, taught them how to shoot, how to carry, how to break down and clean and check every weapon I had to see if it was loaded. As I told them, I don't care if you love them or hate them. What you will not be is the person who accidentally shoots someone out of ignorance. And ignorance is THE telling point in most accidental shootings.

Kirata -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:07:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP He was upstairs, the intruder was downstairs. He could much more safely have... Unh... maybe you should take the trouble to read the post you're commenting on? K.

Kirata -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:09:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales When I was twenty one, the brother of a good friend was playing with his twin brother and a boy who had been their best friend since they were toddlers. The friend was showing them his father's handgun. He was sure that it was unloaded. He was just playing around. He shot one of the twins who died on the spot. This is an argument in favor of gun safety education, not against owning them. K.

slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:11:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u the same society armed both parties As far as I know, none of my taxes are earmarked for providing guns to criminals. So I take your statement to mean that because our society does not outlaw gun ownership, it "arms" people indiscriminately. But alcoholic beverages aren't illegal in our country either. So can it also be said, then, that our society pours booze down the throats of drunk drivers, just like it "arms" criminals? K. [/quote Valid point Kirata.....allow me to remedy the statement ...the same society made guns so readily available so as a child could do it....for both parties. Now you will probably tear that apart too...perhaps it's a little weak but I think you get the point.

Loki45 -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:15:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan I'm not here to argue with you spinner, just interject another side to this debate. In the snippet above, the secondary issue is that the neither of the boys seemed to have been taught how to handle weapons. It is a huge point with me because something of the same thing occurred to me. Except i had been taught to handle them and because of it, no lives were destroyed. I was about 8 at the time, and, I firmly believe that if you're going to keep weapons in the house, then every damned person in that house should know how to handle them, when to handle them, and when not to. Neither of my daughters wanted to. I made them. I took them out, taught them how to shoot, how to carry, how to break down and clean and check every weapon I had to see if it was loaded. As I told them, I don't care if you love them or hate them. What you will not be is the person who accidentally shoots someone out of ignorance. And ignorance is THE telling point in most accidental shootings. Very well said. I'll add one more simple truth: You can solve most, if not all accidental shootings through proper training and education. You cannot say the same of home invasion rapes/robberies/murders.

slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:21:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan I'm not here to argue with you spinner, just interject another side to this debate. In the snippet above, the secondary issue is that the neither of the boys seemed to have been taught how to handle weapons. It is a huge point with me because something of the same thing occurred to me. Except i had been taught to handle them and because of it, no lives were destroyed. I was about 8 at the time, and, I firmly believe that if you're going to keep weapons in the house, then every damned person in that house should know how to handle them, when to handle them, and when not to. Neither of my daughters wanted to. I made them. I took them out, taught them how to shoot, how to carry, how to break down and clean and check every weapon I had to see if it was loaded. As I told them, I don't care if you love them or hate them. What you will not be is the person who accidentally shoots someone out of ignorance. And ignorance is THE telling point in most accidental shootings. Very well said. I'll add one more simple truth: You can solve most, if not all accidental shootings through proper training and education. You cannot say the same of home invasion rapes/robberies/murders. Might I add a simple truth to the above simple truths.....most of those home invasion rapes/robberies/murders involved a gun ! Or hadn't that occured to you ?....perhaps you realised it was not supportive of your point ?

Loki45 -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:33:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Might I add a simple truth to the above simple truths.....most of those home invasion rapes/robberies/murders involved a gun ! Or hadn't that occured to you ?....perhaps you realised it was not supportive of your point ? Quite the opposite, actually. That just supports my point even more. Those who would invade a home to rape/rob/murder already have the guns. You could ban the ownership, manufacturing, and sale of them tomorrow and the criminals would still have them. So long as bad guys have them and use them to rape/rob/murder, law-abiding citizens should be able too use them to defend themselves. The "accidental shooting" side to the argument, however, becomes void when people make time for proper training and education.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:39:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3 quote: ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack If you pick up a gun and break into someone's home at night - you are pretty much flat out conceding that you are going to use deadly force to get what you want from them. You've already made the choice to murder someone if you have to and you've put yourself in the position where you may well have to. There is this long tradition of criminals using the threat of violence, probably not every criminal is prepared to take a life that is an oversimplification of human nature. Perhaps, but not in this case. The man Orion shot was carrying not only a knife, but a fully loaded large-caliber handgun. The matter of whether he intended to kill may be open to debate, but it's not really relevant because the question of whether he was prepared to kill is clearly settled - he was. Just his bad luck that Orion got him first. Edited to add: Just for the sake of clarity, I should point out that while Orion initially identified the kid's gun as a .25, he subsequently corrected that. The police told him later that day that it was a .380 with a round in the chamber. Thanks, K!

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