RE: Defended my home

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ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:44:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: How would you do that? Well for starters just make all guns illegal. make any crime that involves a gun carry a life sentence. hell I don't know, Its been done, though I am pretty sure i wouldn't like the methods used to achieve it. Push comes to shove, while I am adamantly opposed to gun ownership, I cannot conceive of any even vaguely effective method of getting rid of the suckers I would approve of. Perhaps simply ban all sales & all sales of ammo...no bullets and a gun is just a clumsy cudgel. Well, see, there we are. You said earlier that it would be simple. Not to pick on you, but as we see, it's not simple at all. This is always where that argument breaks down. I've seen it advanced countless times, but I've never seen it successfully defended. Until someone can answer that question, it's not even worth discussing. I maintain there is absolutely no way to ensure that criminals will not have access to guns, and I openly challenge anyone to prove I'm wrong.

Kirata -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:48:44 PM)
The quickest and easiest way to get rid of guns would be to develop hand phasers. [:D] K.

slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:49:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Might I add a simple truth to the above simple truths.....most of those home invasion rapes/robberies/murders involved a gun ! Or hadn't that occured to you ?....perhaps you realised it was not supportive of your point ? Quite the opposite, actually. That just supports my point even more. Those who would invade a home to rape/rob/murder already have the guns. You could ban the ownership, manufacturing, and sale of them tomorrow and the criminals would still have them. So long as bad guys have them and use them to rape/rob/murder, law-abiding citizens should be able too use them to defend themselves. The "accidental shooting" side to the argument, however, becomes void when people make time for proper training and education. Lets start with the manufacturing of them for now.....so long as they are so readily available.....we can all count on the "bad guys" having them, can't we.....thereby justifying your very argument....how very conveinent !

MasterJimUK -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:53:06 PM)
Good job. Glad your safe. Maybe you would have reduced the risk if you'd locked the bedroom door and called the police, but its your home and you have every right to defend it. I just wish we still operated like that over here. The days of "an englishmans home is his castle" are long gone. If someone breaks into my house and trips over the table he could sue me. [:(]

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:54:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Well how about we just stop manufacturing the fucking things.....you know all journeys start with a simple step! So now we're going to rewrite the Constitution. Good luck with that, given that the majority of Americans support the right of private gun ownership.

amelliagrace -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:55:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brain I don't have a problem with what you did but I still don't want or like people having guns. I'm not interested in learning how to use a gun because I have other things to do. I don't like risking my life because somebody wants to steal things from my garage. If you don't have a gun the criminal doesn't either. Additionally, the police could have handled what you did. You said yourself they were there in three minutes. I think if somebody tries to steal something from my garage, I will let them because it will be a lot less stressful to let a police officer handle the situation. Besides, that's what we pay them for. And I don't care if you want me to go fuck myself because I'm not interested in using a gun and I'm not interested in risking my life for materialistic things. I'm glad to know everyone is okay. I suppose we shall have to disagree. Your home...your responsibility. Your property...yours to defend and care for. Your family....your job to secure them. Might I suggest to you that you do a study of the crime statistics of nations where an armed citizenry is tolerated, those where it is encouraged, and those where it is illegal. Take a look also at crime states for the 10 years prior and after drastic changes in gun laws, here in the US. Allowing theives to walk in and simply take whatever they want, with an attitude of "I'd rather not own a gun, it is just stuff, and not worth the problems of guns in people's hands" is simply unconsiounable, IMO. Rewarding horrible behavior is not exactly the best way to discourage its spread. There is a lovely little subdivision not far from where I went to high school. One of my dearest friends grew up there. Once upon a time, while his father (a merchant seaman) was away, some jerk-off decided to help himself to whatever might suit his fancy there. The Lady of the house was not pleased. The perp didn't listen to her warning. She shot him. Burgleries in that area ended abruptly, and many years later, it was still delightfully crime free. Criminals talk. While you are certainly entitled to your opinions, I would strongly encourage you to study up and attempt to base them on reality. Grace

DemandingLeader -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 6:59:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales The first was when I was eighteen. I was on the subway at around 2am, coming home from some late night fun. There were only a couple of people on the train when a gang of three young men got on. Suddenly they pounced on one of the riders and started beating the hell out of him. I will admit that I was frozen in place, watching with a sense of helpless horror. Then another passenger came forward, pulling a pistol from his pocket and at gunpoint, held the three hoodlums until the next stop where he told them to get off the train. They did so and the incident ended. And then the next time these thugs come across a gun on the street, they will take it with them on the subway. Who will win then? The benefit of the gun in stopping the incident you mentioned was only temporary, and the defeated will only upgrade to the same level for the next subway visit. The "what happens next in response" is never part of the dialog of "having a gun kicked ass in that situation" types. quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales It is a complicated situation. I am only sorry that everyone seems to have decided it needs a simple answer. I agree, its complacted, and simple minds reach for the simple answer. The problem is not guns, but the changing composition of gun owners, the dumbing down of society, our trickle down economy, the rich abusing the poor to a point where the poor don't have basics and crime becomes survival.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:04:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales Now comes this tale of Orion. I hear this and I am glad he had a gun and was able to defend himself and his loved one. But I also wonder if guns were a bit harder to get, if the intruder might not have had one as well, and if that was the case, if he might have been a bit less eager to break into someone else's home. It is a complicated situation. I am only sorry that everyone seems to have decided it needs a simple answer. Mark me down as one who believes it involves a very complex answer, mostly centered around making guns much more difficult for criminals to get and much more expensive for them to be caught possessing. But since that's not the focus of the thread, nobody's asking complex questions, so it's unlikely that anyone would offer many complex answers.

Loki45 -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:06:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Lets start with the manufacturing of them for now.....so long as they are so readily available.....we can all count on the "bad guys" having them, can't we.....thereby justifying your very argument....how very conveinent ! If we stopped manufacturing them tomorrow, there are still enough in existence to ensure that your grandkids' children can buy a new one, or at worst a second-generation used one. Furthermore, our military and the militaries of every nation on the planet uses guns. If we stopped making them for civilian use, the bad guys still have very plentiful sources for their weapons.

stef -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:09:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig I don't know stef, its happened in many countries, why not here? Because this is the real world. I'm not sure what you consider to be "many", but in the two countries where it's been tried most recently, Australia and the UK, the plan hasn't even remotely produced the outcome for which their leaders had hoped. In Australia, several government initiated studies show little effect in reducing gun related crime and in the case of the UK, their Home Office has published numbers that show crime involving the use of firearms has gone UP. What makes you think it would suddenly work in the US? quote: So, as far as you are concerned the main reason to allow people to own guns is because its fun to shoot things with those guns???? Please don't put words in my mouth, I said no such thing. I spoke for myself, I don't presume to speak for anyone else. There are people who own firearms purely for self defense, for hunting, for sport, for collecting and many other reasons. quote: Really, why is it inane to assume that somebody going hunting doesn't require more than a few rounds. I find it far more inane to state that somebody planning to go shot 1 deer needs an unlimited amount of ammo. Marksmanship requires practice and it's anything but a trivial skill to acquire. The number of hunters who come home empty handed are testament to this fact. quote: The facts are that the OP took unnecessary risks and ended up shooting somebody who didn't need shooting. That's not a fact, that's your incredibly biased opinion. The facts are these; an intruder was in Orion's house and he chose to put himself between the threat and his family rather than waiting and hoping help arrived before the intruder proceeded further into the house where his child and parents were. When faced with aggression, he neutralized the threat. He absolutely did the right, albeit regrettable, thing. quote: The solution is obvious, yet you claim I am in a dreamworld for stating it. Take away the guns and people won't get shot. despite what the NRA says, its guns that shoot people. It's not a solution if it cannot realistically be implemented. You might as well go all the way into childish fantasy and just say "make all the bad people be nice". I wish it were that simple. I also wish I was like Elmer J. Fudd, millionaire and owned a mansion and a yacht. My fantasy is a lot more likely to come true than yours, by a long shot. ~stef

Domented1 -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:17:01 PM)
you might listen to the terrified Texas 911 call with a guy pounding on the door yelling he was going to kill her. Then hearing the windows break as he smashed his way in before the police got there.... She did not want to shoot, but when he came in she had no choice, and killed him. Now she and her children are alive, because a law abiding citizen was armed. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6bb_1260253115

amelliagrace -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:19:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub OK...if he had died would it have been worth the junk in your basement big man? Could you have quietly...with gun in hand called the police and said there was someone in your house then made sure your wife was safe...again with gun in hand and wait for the police to arrive...again with gun in hand? Butch My home is MY HOME. Home is SACRED. The contents of my home are not legitimately at the disposal of another. This includes both persons and things. It would seem that Orion shares a similar viewpoint, and takes his responsibility as Head of Household seriously. Let's be clear about something. It was the incredibly poor, stupid, criminal, and reprehensible choices and actions of the intruder which resulted in his injury. I'd personally rate the value and societal worth of such an individual as somewhat less than the contents of my garbage can...let alone my FAMILY. Do some research on various nations, gun ownership, and crime rates. It can be very enlightening. Grace

slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:19:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Well how about we just stop manufacturing the fucking things.....you know all journeys start with a simple step! So now we're going to rewrite the Constitution. Good luck with that, given that the majority of Americans support the right of private gun ownership. Is that what they mean by a tyranny of the majority ?Besides I didn't mention the right of ownership.....I sugessted we stop manufacturing more of them.....you leapfrogged the argument to one of banning.Why ?

Loki45 -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:23:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig despite what the NRA says, its guns that shoot people. This silly statement just cracks me up. Maybe the police should form a task force to arrest all those mean guns that lie in wait, waiting to ambush unsuspecting people. I have seen the lil suckers hanging out in cases, pretending to be on display for sale while all along they are planning crimes.

slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:25:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Lets start with the manufacturing of them for now.....so long as they are so readily available.....we can all count on the "bad guys" having them, can't we.....thereby justifying your very argument....how very conveinent ! If we stopped manufacturing them tomorrow, there are still enough in existence to ensure that your grandkids' children can buy a new one, or at worst a second-generation used one. Furthermore, our military and the militaries of every nation on the planet uses guns. If we stopped making them for civilian use, the bad guys still have very plentiful sources for their weapons. Let me see if I understand this.....on the one hand we have so many of them that my great grandchildren will not be caught short.....so despite the obvious glut of weapons we should continue to manufacture them simply because there are already too many? Is that about it? Good luck with that.

Laymedown60 -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:25:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I won't fault Orion for risking his life when he chose to go mano a mano with the intruder. I do fault him for risking his wife and child, father and handicapped mother's lives. He was upstairs, the intruder was downstairs. He could much more safely have called told his wife to call 911, while he locked the basement door. And stood back watching the door in case the intruder managed to break it down. No, he and his girl were sleeping downstairs in the room next to the storage room, and his 4-year old son was in the room across the hall. He had no place to retreat without abandoning at least one family member. What if the perk managed to get a few shots off...do you think plasterboard would stop bullets from penetrating into the sons room? I hate to bring up could haves but that could have happened. Why can't you see that there were good reasons NOT to use a gun ...All you do is talk of why it was a good idea. You are not thinking things thought just always trying to be right rather than thinking of what could have been done. Then when people say something you attack them like they are attacking Orion when they are not. Butch

gehennasfury -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:26:03 PM)
Okay. I don't even know nor care who even brought up the N.R.A., or why they even brought it up in the first place. Let's all look at the statistical evidence. More people in the United States are killed each year by drunk driving than are killed by firearms. That being a fact, why is it that people are against guns more vehemently than alcohol? The answer is an armed society is harder to control. I own several firearms, ranging from muzzle-loading pistols to modern rifles with everything else in the middle. I do NOT own any illegal type firearms. My guns are registered where required and locked up for safety. The more people go armed, the more the governement has to fear. If guns were fully banned tomorrow, than only the outlaws would own them. I adamantly refuse to surrended my weapons as I regularly practice with them, use them for sport and competitions as well as providing food for my family. Elsewhere in this topic, it has been brought up that Orion should not have fired at the intruder in his home. We can sit here on that forum and argue back and forth all day long and still accomplishnothing. Nobody can say 100% for sure what they would do in a given situation unless they are actually in that situation or have been in it. One thing I wonder is what those people who are anti-firearms actually plan on doing when, NOT IF, but when their home is invaded by thugs, possibly armed. Go ahead an call the police, while you wait on them, you can take pride in your beliefs as you watch your family getting hurt. Me, personally, I'd rather splatter their brains on my wall. Some may call me sick, even psychotic. But what I have in my home is mine, whether it be my possessions or my family. It is mine, and I will defend it. If someone thinks that my possessions are worth their life, they are welcome to roll the dice, but I know how to shoot one way, and that is to kill.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:26:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Well how about we just stop manufacturing the fucking things.....you know all journeys start with a simple step! So now we're going to rewrite the Constitution. Good luck with that, given that the majority of Americans support the right of private gun ownership. Is that what they mean by a tyranny of the majority ?Besides I didn't mention the right of ownership.....I sugessted we stop manufacturing more of them.....you leapfrogged the argument to one of banning.Why ? How do you intend to ban the manufacture of a product that people have the constitutional right to own?

slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:31:13 PM)
So it it your contention that everyone sooner or later will be the victim of a violent crime. "NOT IF,but when their home is invaded by thugs". Incredible...absolutly incredible.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Defended my home (12/8/2009 7:34:55 PM)
While we search for the perfect solution, can I suggest a couple of reasonable steps that would at least help some of the problems? 1) Background checks: Most people are not going to find themselves in a position where they need a gun NOW! If someone is either shooting at you or coming to shoot you, your best bet is to go to your local police station, not your local gun shop. If you are a wanted fugitive, a diagnosed psychotic or have any active restraining orders against you, you can't have a gun. Life is tough. Live with it. 2) Guns, like cars, have a great potential for accidental damage and a very low idiot tolerance. So, if you want to own a gun, you have to go through what a person has to do to drive a car. First there would be a written test to see that you know enough not to look down the barrel to find out what happened to that pesky hangfire and such. Then you get a permit and spend some time in a gun safety course for the theory and on a gun range for practical experience. You'd have to sit in a classroom for four hours watching the gun version of "Blood on the Highway" to get the idea of what happens when you do stupid things with firearms. The NRA would be a good group to come up with these tests and teaching methods. THEN, when you're all done, you go and take a written and practical test and if you pass, you can go get your gun. Will this solve every problem on both sides? No. Will it help? Yes. So it's a start.

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