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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 7:37:48 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Well, see, there we are. You said earlier that it would be simple. Not to pick on you, but as we see, it's not simple at all.

This is always where that argument breaks down. I've seen it advanced countless times, but I've never seen it successfully defended. Until someone can answer that question, it's not even worth discussing. I maintain there is absolutely no way to ensure that criminals will not have access to guns, and I openly challenge anyone to prove I'm wrong.


You'll never lose that challenge.

I'm a gun owner. I am not a gun enthusiast. I own one handgun that I purchased for personal protection. If someone comes up with a foolproof way to remove guns from everyone's possession in the USA I will gladly surrender my weapon.

I will never lose my challenge, either.



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(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 7:38:14 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Laymedown60

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I won't fault Orion for risking his life when he chose to go mano a mano with the intruder. I do fault him for risking his wife and child, father and handicapped mother's lives. He was upstairs, the intruder was downstairs. He could much more safely have called told his wife to call 911, while he locked the basement door. And stood back watching the door in case the intruder managed to break it down.


No, he and his girl were sleeping downstairs in the room next to the storage room, and his 4-year old son was in the room across the hall. He had no place to retreat without abandoning at least one family member.




What if the perk managed to get a few shots off...do you think plasterboard would stop bullets from penetrating into the sons room?


What if, what if, what if... what if Orion had just stayed in bed and let the guy roam around the house where his 4-year old child was sleeping, for the 7 and a half minutes it took for the police to get there? How about that "what if?" If you want to play "what if," I'll gladly play that one out to any number of possible conclusions.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Laymedown60
I hate to bring up could haves but that could have happened. Why can't you see that there were good reasons NOT to use a gun ...


I have yet to see anyone in this thread offer a good reason for him to do anything differently than what he did.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Laymedown60
All you do is talk of why it was a good idea. You are not thinking things thought just always trying to be right rather than thinking of what could have been done.


Like what?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Laymedown60



Then when people say something you attack them like they are attacking Orion when they are not.



I don't know what you mean by that. Who am I attacking?


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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 7:40:17 PM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Let me see if I understand this.....on the one hand we have so many of them that my great grandchildren will not be caught short.....so despite the obvious glut of weapons we should continue to manufacture them simply because there are already too many?
Is that about it?


Nope, you really don't understand. The manufacture and sales of firearms is a business, much like cigarettes. They could no more ban companies from making guns than they could cigarettes.

Furthermore, as long as our military needs weapons, they will be made, and thus, available for theft by bad guys.

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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 7:56:34 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline
quote:

Well, see, there we are. You said earlier that it would be simple. Not to pick on you, but as we see, it's not simple at all.

This is always where that argument breaks down. I've seen it advanced countless times, but I've never seen it successfully defended. Until someone can answer that question, it's not even worth discussing. I maintain there is absolutely no way to ensure that criminals will not have access to guns, and I openly challenge anyone to prove I'm wrong.
So, since we cannot ensure 100% that criminals might get access to guns, we should make sure they have 100% access to them...no middle ground here? All or nothing?
I already told you what I would like to see done, make possession of a firearm illegal..period. ban the fuckers. make it illegal to make, sell own or buy guns or ammo.



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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 7:56:51 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Was that a freudian slip Loki....you conflating guns and cigarettes ?
Interesting.
Enjoy your thread...celebrate gun ownership as the best thing since sliced bread.But lets agree to revisit the subject the next time some kid takes the family weapon to school and starts shooting up his classroom.

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

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Profile   Post #: 385
RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:03:25 PM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Was that a freudian slip Loki....you conflating guns and cigarettes ?
Interesting.
Enjoy your thread...celebrate gun ownership as the best thing since sliced bread.But lets agree to revisit the subject the next time some kid takes the family weapon to school and starts shooting up his classroom.


Not a slip at all. Business is business. Deal with it.

And your little quip about a school shooting just does more for my point. Someone who will willingly commit such a crime does not care about the "lesser" crimes they must commit prior to that.

Also, a school shooting says more about the kid's upbringing than the presence of the weapon in the home.

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"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:08:39 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

I'm a gun owner. I am not a gun enthusiast. I own one handgun that I purchased for personal protection. If someone comes up with a foolproof way to remove guns from everyone's possession in the USA I will gladly surrender my weapon.

I will never lose my challenge, either.


Same here - I am a gun owner but not a gun enthusiast. I own a twelve guage shotgun for personal protection and the occasional hunting trip. I too would give it up if I could be assured that all guns could be removed from everyone's possesion but I would like a few more assurances.

I would also like assurance that all of the following will be removed:

Kinves
Blunt objects
Molotove cocktails
Really strong guys with bulging muscles
Human agression
Human hatred
Human stupidity
Olives

If society can accomplish all that then I will gladly beat my twelve guage into a plow shoare.


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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:13:00 PM   
Laymedown60


Posts: 41
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		He could have got his gun...called the police... moved near the door...then in a loud voice say the Police are on the way get out... He would have run for their door to get away... he still would not have known the exact location of Orion and if he tried to use his gun he would still be at a disadvantage.

Common sense says he would run...you asked for a good alternative this is it...but of course not good enough for you I'm sure because you can never be wrong.

Laymedown

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 388
RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:14:01 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Olives


Nooooooooo. I fucking love olives!

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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:14:22 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Well, see, there we are. You said earlier that it would be simple. Not to pick on you, but as we see, it's not simple at all.

This is always where that argument breaks down. I've seen it advanced countless times, but I've never seen it successfully defended. Until someone can answer that question, it's not even worth discussing. I maintain there is absolutely no way to ensure that criminals will not have access to guns, and I openly challenge anyone to prove I'm wrong.
So, since we cannot ensure 100% that criminals might get access to guns, we should make sure they have 100% access to them...no middle ground here? All or nothing?


Don't ask me, you're the one who suggested it. Personally, I think it's ridiculously extreme, which is a big part of the reason i never said it or would say any such thing.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
I already told you what I would like to see done, make possession of a firearm illegal..period. ban the fuckers. make it illegal to make, sell own or buy guns or ammo.


But what you said initially was that it would be simple to remove all the guns. Now you're falling back to an entirely different position - banning all guns. Those are two completely different issues. Making them illegal is not the same as making them magically disappear. Are you aware of what happened to the violent crime rates in England and Australia when they essentially did exactly what you're suggesting? You might want to take a look at that data.


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Profile   Post #: 390
RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:15:00 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

lets agree to revisit the subject the next time some kid takes the family weapon to school and starts shooting up his classroom.

Good idea. And while we're at it, the next time some drunk wipes out a family of four, which is likely to be a lot sooner, we can argue for prohibiting the manufacture and sale of alcohol too. In fact, why wait for a drunk to do it? Cars are more dangerous than guns, even without drunks driving them. People who care about human life really need to get behind us on this. We're murdering children on our roads!!

And then, let's see, theres......

K.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 391
RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:15:38 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		No Loki,thats your interpetation of what a school shooting "says"...In some quarters a school shooting speaks to the ready availability of firearms in our society...the fact that you and those who think like you would choose to ignore that part of it says more about head in the sand syndrome ...but it is what I have come to expect from the gun crowd.
See you in a couple of weeks.....and oh yeah....thats a when....not an if!!!!! 

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 392
RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:19:16 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Well, see, there we are. You said earlier that it would be simple. Not to pick on you, but as we see, it's not simple at all.

This is always where that argument breaks down. I've seen it advanced countless times, but I've never seen it successfully defended. Until someone can answer that question, it's not even worth discussing. I maintain there is absolutely no way to ensure that criminals will not have access to guns, and I openly challenge anyone to prove I'm wrong.
So, since we cannot ensure 100% that criminals might get access to guns, we should make sure they have 100% access to them...no middle ground here? All or nothing?
I already told you what I would like to see done, make possession of a firearm illegal..period. ban the fuckers. make it illegal to make, sell own or buy guns or ammo.




You'd still have thugs with guns, as they are manufactured in places other than the US, and seeing as how smuggling is a lucrative profession.

That aside, you'd also see a rise in crimes committed with knives. (Take a look at British stats on this subject.) There is always the garrot, as well. Someone bent on harming another will find a means to attempt said harm. How then to convince them to not try it?

Regardless of how you attempt to detur crime, one thing remains fundamental: Crime is born in the heart and mind. Short of changing hearts and minds, you don't get "crime control". At best you see a shift in the type of crime, and the tools used in its commission. Changes in mind and heart work. One way to encourage beeter choices is for the risks to simply not be worth the possible rewards.

Take a hard look at gun ownership in Switzerland, and the crime rate there. Take a look at the states and communitees that have seen rises in crime rates where restrictions on gun ownership by the citizenry were inacted or made more stringent.

Grace

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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:19:56 PM   
Laymedown60


Posts: 41
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

lets agree to revisit the subject the next time some kid takes the family weapon to school and starts shooting up his classroom.

Good idea. And while we're at it, the next time some drunk wipes out a family of four, which is likely to be a lot sooner, we can argue for prohibiting the manufacture and sale of alcohol too. In fact, why wait for a drunk to do it? Cars are more dangerous than guns, even without drunks driving them. People who care about human life really need to get behind us on this. We're murdering children on our roads!!

And then, let's see, theres......

K.


The just for shits and grins fun lets look up the statistics on accidental fatal shootings of children with their fathers’ right to own unnecessary handgun firearms.

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Profile   Post #: 394
RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:22:25 PM   
InvisibleBlack


Posts: 865
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I already told you what I would like to see done, make possession of a firearm illegal..period. ban the fuckers. make it illegal to make, sell own or buy guns or ammo.


What we have here is a diametrically opposed view of the world and society.

You assume that the government is capable and competent enough to confiscate and/or ban all firearms, prevent any more firearms from entering the country, and then provide such adequate law enforcement that no one would ever have a need to defend themselves against an armed criminal, or a wild animal, or whatever deadly threat might happen along.

I assume the government is filled with incompetent or barely competent self-absorbed wonks of substandard intelligence. The kind of people who let Katrina happen, or who haven't been able to replace the World Trade Center despite spending billions of dollars and taking eight years "thinking about it".

I'm looking to make people as self-sufficient as possible. As self-sufficient as they're willing to be. It's nice if someone, a neighbor, a police officer, the Red Cross, the government, whoever, is there to help - but if you can take care of matters yourself even if you don't need to I maintain you're always in a better position.

It seems to me that you're looking to make people more dependent. They would have no choice but to rely on someone else to protect them. They're at the mercy of some external power. If that power is competent and concerned, then they're okay. If it's not, then they're screwed.

I think making people more dependent in almost any way, in the short run or in the long run, whether as individuals or society as whole, is a very bad idea.

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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:26:30 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

lets agree to revisit the subject the next time some kid takes the family weapon to school and starts shooting up his classroom.

Good idea. And while we're at it, the next time some drunk wipes out a family of four, which is likely to be a lot sooner, we can argue for prohibiting the manufacture and sale of alcohol too. In fact, why wait for a drunk to do it? Cars are more dangerous than guns, even without drunks driving them. People who care about human life really need to get behind us on this. We're murdering children on our roads!!

And then, let's see, theres......

K.
And this might be the single most asinine justification for doing nothing about guns."other things kill too".
Congratulations Kirata you have "disarmed" me with your inteligence and reasoning...Bravo.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:29:14 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		*fast reply*
Well I certainly know which collarme houses to rob and which houses to avoid after reading all of this.



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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:30:38 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Nooooooooo. I fucking love olives!


Ugh. I loath the things - which is why I tossed them into the list (I've long been of the opinion that if you are going to fantasize, you might as well go for it). But I don't think you have to worry, I doubt either human stupidity or olives will disappear from the earth any time soon.

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Profile   Post #: 398
RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:31:01 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		LOL Aileen...

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RE: Defended my home - 12/8/2009 8:31:35 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Laymedown60

He could have got his gun...called the police... moved near the door...then in a loud voice say the Police are on the way get out... He would have run for their door to get away... he still would not have known the exact location of Orion and if he tried to use his gun he would still be at a disadvantage.

Common sense says he would run...you asked for a good alternative this is it...but of course not good enough for you I'm sure because you can never be wrong.


Well, you're right about one thing at least. It's nowhere near good enough for me. I believe that what I was hoping for was a sensible argument, but this doesn't even come close. This is just childishly silly. Take a look at Domented 1's link for a good example of how this sort of "magical thinking" works in the real world.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6bb_1260253115


And please spare me the snide remarks about how i can "never be wrong" - it's not my fault everybody on the other side of the debate is advancing such poor arguments. If you want me to be wrong, prove me wrong. Nobody in this thread has even come close. Like you, most of them have advanced weak, irrational arguments that are rooted entirely in emotion rather than logic, and when the flaws in the arguments are exposed many of the posters tend to get pissy about it. "But, but, but... guns are bad! They're just bad, that's all! Why can't you see that?" You want to actually win an argument here, you need to bring something a lot better than that.


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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